Rifleman Archive
Thread: This is what is wrong with SWG's PvP (picture)
Cerba:
As far as i understood it, they wanted to introduce a 3 second cap for rifles, but triple their damage therefore. Devs made clear there will be no reduction in DPS.
Given that, i am hoping for a one-shot comeback for the rifleman. You would significantly dwarf my Damage then 
But well, as long as everyone is happy, i am happy
Dogg
No they said they would "look" at our damage output after they made the change. Most Master Rifleman know they cant change our weapon damage to much without giving us a one shot kill all the time, remember we can do it right now, just not a regular basis.
The 3 sec max speed is profession changing, and I dont think the Dev's fully understand that.
SilverLobo wrote:
No they said they would "look" at our damage output after they made the change. Most Master Rifleman know they cant change our weapon damage to much without giving us a one shot kill all the time, remember we can do it right now, just not a regular basis.
The 3 sec max speed is profession changing, and I dont think the Dev's fully understand that.
quit whining Lobo
InquisitorPayne wrote:
Pecos wrote:
5 second delay is anyone who isn't a Master.
Lobo, just because you exploited jaxes and made master in 2 days doesn't mean everyone does. A 0040 BH can still waste a 4444 Rifleman and you know it. Quit being a moron, k? thx.
In that scenario:
Rifleman: 91 Skill points
Bpounty Hunter: 172 skill points
You realy think the Rifleman should have much of a chance? Ever heared the word proportional?
Dogg
Oh please, not the skill point argument again. How about this? 4/4/4/4 Rifleman: 91 combat related skill points, 0/0/4/0 bounty hunter: 97 combat related skill points.
How's that for a comparison? And add this one to it:
XP needed for 0/0/4/0 BH:
31,000 Trapping xp
36,000 Wilderness Survival xp
62,000 Scouting xp
91,000 Rifle Weapons xp
91,000 Carbine Weapons xp
70,550 Combat xp
1,291,000 Pistol Weapons xp (less 800,000 pistol xp if only eyeshot is desired)
1240 Apprenticeship xp - Okay, that's a pain in the butt. But I would also point out that marksman and scout skills are among the most desireable in the Galaxy, and therefore with a little effort, this mark can be reached. Without even trying I have surpased this amount of App xp by now.
Total Weapons xp required: 1,473,000
Total weapons xp "wasted" (past xp cap) if trek to the 40k combat xp requirement for Novice BH is done with only pistol OR carbine instead of both: 182,500 xp
Incidentally, once reaching Novice Bounty hunter using pistol, you should have enough pistol xp to get Bounty Pistol Specialization 1 and will need a mere 150k xp to get eyeshot.
Note: If the aspiring BH also has Pistoleer and one box of anything that requires pistol xp, the pistol xp cap will be high enough that no xp will be wasted. If he or she only has Novice Pistoleer with no boxes, then the pistol xp cap will be 100,000 xp higher and only 82,500 xp will be wasted.
Total weapons xp needed to get 0/0/4/0 BH using only pistol - 1,655,500 (855,500 if all you want is eyeshot, just to point out the cost of the last 2 BH pistol boxes)
XP needed for 4/4/4/4 Rifleman:
415,000 Combat xp
3,891,000 Rifle Weapons xp
Where should I even begin with this?
You can all see the math....It takes a rifleman 3.9 million rifle experience to get to rifleman 4/4/4/X, and a little more to get rifle special abilities 4. It takes a Bounty Hunter 1.7 million experience AT MOST to reach 0/0/4/0 Bounty Hunter, and the Bounty Hunter is supposed to wipe the floor with the rifleman, in his territory?? (eyeshot)
I have personally earned more than 2 million rifle experience since Novice Rifleman. I have more scout experience than I will ever need, and a Bounty Hunter is supposed to be able to kill me without a fight after earning far less experience? Doesn't experience count for anything anymore? It should mean everything!
"You realy think the Rifleman should have much of a chance? Ever heared the word proportional?"
I have heard the word proportional. Would you like a definition?
1 a : corresponding in size, degree, or intensity b : having the same or a constant ratio
Having the same or a constant ratio. Thanks Webster!
So what you are saying, is that because you allocate more static skill points (which are recoverable), you should be able to best a character who has far more time and experience points invested. I really don't think you understand the issue, Inquisitor Payne.
So you want proportion do you? Do you really? A Bounty Hunter gets +50 Pistol accuracy (+10 more at master) and +50 Pistol Speed in their pistol tree. It costs you 14 skill points to get that entire line. A pistoleer gets +49 pistol speed and +45 pistol accuracy AT MASTER (63 skill points). So, after investing 2,600,000 LESS pistol experience than a master pistoleer, you get more accuracy and more speed with a pistol? Sure, you don't get the variety of (seemingly) broken specials a pistoleer gets - but you have eyeshot. Which of course, is itself broken. But it's broken in such a way to benefit those who have it. And yes, I do know of the talks to move it to master, which is only a bandaid fix. Bandaids fall off.
So, proportion, huh? Well I don't see why the Bounty Hunters Pistol tree should get all those good things and only cost 1.2 million pistol experience. How about this: INCREASE the cost for all of the Bounty Hunter weapons trees so that they are *in proportion* to the total experience cost of the +accuracy and +speed trees of the similar classes since you broughtproportioning up- plus 15% because you get more then they do. For pistoleers, that's 1,350,000 pistol experience for Pistol Marksmanship IV which gives a pistoleer +35 accuracy, and 415,000 combat experience for Pistol Stances which gives +29 to pistol speed. Wait, what's that? 415,000 combat experience....that means a pistoleer needs 4,150,000 pistol experience to get that kind of speed, and you currently get +20 speed for 400,000 pistol xp, and +40 for 750,000 pistol experience! (Bounty Pistol Specialization III)
I'm really starting to believe that each full weapons tree for Bounty Huntersshould cost around 3,000,000 experience (to be fair), since they get an entire elite class condensed into one tree. I mean you're onlyspending 217 skill points at masterfor 3 compact elite professions - you're really getting a deal! You could master marksman, pistoleer, carbineer and get 3 boxes of a heavy weapon in commando for all 250 skill points. But how long would that take?
That would be:
1,165,550 Combat Experience (11,655,500 generic weapons experience!)
3,891,000 Pistol xp
3,891,000 Carbine xp
600,000 Heavy Weapons xp
1860 Apprenticeship xp
And let's not forget! SKILL POINTS are NOT the currency of the combat system, weapons EXPERIENCE is.
How many times do I need to say this - Skill Points are recoverable! Spent experience is not!
If you want your profession to stay "Uber" like it is, then you need to coerce your buddies to have SOE make it reflect that. "The best combat class" should not be faster to master than some rinky-dink deer-hunter class, as some of you like to call us. Yeah - deer hunting with an M-60? Please..
Daerowlin wrote:
Give Rifles a longer range. My T21 can hit at 65m away, so can some pistols, carbines, and LLC's, Flamethrowers, Rocket Launchers, etc... Where's the advantage? Sniper's are supposed to be able to hit at a further distance than anyone else can even reach, that's their design ! So... Give Rifles a 90m range, or something in that area, so that we can begin hitting our enemy before they can hit us... Then we'd actually bea sniper, and not just some shmoe with a slower gun.
Yeah well thats the thing - they can't do that. Lets assume that the whole engine isn't hard coded around players not being able to hit past 64 (its not 65) meters due to the maximum range you can get new objects and players to show up on your radar is 128 meters.
If you give us 90 meters max range, hell if you even give us 70 max range, we would be able to indefinately kite other combat classes. A pistoleer, carabineer, etc... would be running after us and we'd be always just a bit out of range and they'd never catch up because everyone runs at the same speed unless they burst or you have low Exploration skills so they they can catch up with you on hilly terrain, but most characters have their exploration at least at 3 so they have the max terrain negotatation.
Of course you left out that ONE extra skill point for Master Rifleman, I am getting sick of the spin Novice Rifleman are trying to throw into this arguement.
The Novice Rifleman complain that it is to easy to be a eye shot BH. The Master Rifleman tells them it doesnt matter becasue when you make Master you have the advantage over them in PvP. Then the arguement by Novice's are they dont care about PvP. My question to the Novices if you dont care about PvP, and you only care about PvE then why does it matter how quickly you level up? The end game is PvP, you rate the effectiveness of the profession by its ability at Master, not by Novice.
This arguement is getting old, very old. It is the same whine by the same whiny Novices. It has been explained countless times, but you refuse to listen and complain instead. I have a crazy idea how about youstop whining, and make Master.
wow SocialConformer you really layed the smack down lol
Yup BHs spend more skill points so they should be way more powerfull than riflemen even though riflemen have toget an assload more XP. Right.
And lets not forget how much easier it is for pistoleers/BHs to get XP compared to riflemen. Many, many times you can see a pistoleer/BH hit and run a lair, ie, run by while shooting and killing all the mobs on the move then kill the lair after doing a few circles collecting any loot and then keep going. Did you ever see a rifleman do that? No he'd miss the mob while moving, all the others would aggro him and he'd get swamped by them and incapped because of the melee penalty. A rifleman would have to have his ass prone and take things really slow when doing the same lair and even then he has a good chance of getting aggro'ed by BAF mobs. Pistoleers and BHs are pretty much as group-freindly as you can get, also.
I mean, if you're doing a white-con group aggro lair and you dont one-shot the mob, the others will aggro you and you're done.
SocialConformer:
as i am not a BH i wuld still let this argument count against me (Skill points that is). Why?
the open skill points eft give yiou the ability to go into multiple other professions, wich will make you much more cersatile than a BH at the max cap of SP.
If i had to compare a master Bounty Hunter/Pistoleer with a master Rifleman/Master Creature handler, i would bet on the Rifleman. Why?
the Creaturesof the rifleman would be enough of a threat for the BH to at least warn shot them,. ( wich will lead to a new comabt command from their owner. In the meantime the BH is victim to theattack of the Rifleman (for excemple Flushing Volley. The stun would slow him down considerably. if the BH does not conitnually warning shot the pets, they will kill him. If he does, the Rifleman will killhim. I do not ask you to agree with me. nad i do not ask you to believe me. But from my experience i would set my bets on the rifleman in that fight. There is nothing less exciting than beeing haunted by 2 Bloodseeker mites. The scatter pistol is useless aginst them, the LLC take too long to take them out (and has a deadly recylce time, as the BH would drop dead in about 8 seconds max), the Laser carbine would be almost useless, a DXR6 carbine wouldbe useless, and an EE3 Carbine would be useless. So, what to do about it?
My case is rested. I KNOW that skill points count more than experience.
But i have to agree that the BH would reach 0040 far sooner than a rifleman would hit 444X. If you take both up to master again...
Eyeshot is tough and maybe even too tough. But the solution is not a nerf of Eyeshot but a fix of the defense abilities of other professions.
Dogg
SilverLobo, if you were responding to me, I wasn't including Master Rifleman title because of the discussion earlier in the thread that I quoted.
Regarding the "Make it to master before you participate in PvP", it's been stated repeatedly that a profession that must wait until they have mastered it until they can viably PvP is one that has internal balance issues. Especially when there are other professions that do not require much skill to do what we must wait until master to do. (the PvP part, not massive damage)
What those balance issuesare, I can not say, since everyone has their own opinion on the subject, and because I do not PvP yet. Although I am getting close to master. I am enjoying soloing and have found my strategies, working with what we have. But our experiences need to be shared so that errors and flaws may be discovered.
It's still a young game, and I look forward to positive progress. Personally I am sick of the constant repetition of gripes, but you can't expect everyone to read every thread from the beginning of the board, especially with all of the new visitors/members. These things happen and I am abstaining more and more from posting, unless I feel I have something to point out.
I agree with social conformer about the bh skill point thing. They shouldn't be better than me because they have more skill pointsspent becuase they needed to master scout and marksman. They should have a role/niche in combat, not be the uber class that they are.
However, I think pvp should be balanced at the master level. Even though I'm not one yet, I will be one in time. Aas this game continues, more and more will be masters, and that is my main concern.
All I gotta say is, try playing a Wookiee Rifleman sometime in PVP, and then you'll have a reason to complain. lol No armor and the undependable accuracy that happens makes it near impossible to defend against someone in PVP. The only hope any Rifleman has, is to remain unnoticed and get a good couple shots off.
The damage increase sounds like a good start to making Rifleman actually playable in PVP without wanting to put your fist through your monitor, but I still say that Rifles should have a longer range. True, Rifles are more accurate at longer range than pistols, but pistols can still ( and usually do ) hit at long range most of the time, and when you're talking a 2.0 second delay between shots, they average 3 shots to a Rifle's 1. Even if one of them misses, they're still doing near the same damage over time, and that's a Rifleman's optimum range vs. a Pistol's worst.
Give Rifles a longer range. My T21 can hit at 65m away, so can some pistols, carbines, and LLC's, Flamethrowers, Rocket Launchers, etc... Where's the advantage? Sniper's are supposed to be able to hit at a further distance than anyone else can even reach, that's their design ! So... Give Rifles a 90m range, or something in that area, so that we can begin hitting our enemy before they can hit us... Then we'd actually bea sniper, and not just some shmoe with a slower gun.
Or... up the damage by these weapons. I've seen carbines that do close to the same damage as my T21. CARBINES !! Sure, they're nice guns, but look at them... then look at a T21. The T21 looks like a friggin cannon for cryin out loud ! I can't honestly beleive that a dinky little pea-shooter is going to have that close to the dmg output of something that looks like it should be mounted on a ship. And my T21 is sliced for damage by a Master Smuggler, as well as being crafted by the best Weaponsmith around, so it's not like I'm making a weak comparison.
This is not a whine, or a gripe, so if you plan on flaming, save it. This is just the opinion of someone who can see the faults in this class, as they actually play this class. True, I could go BH or Commando, it wouldn't be hard from where I am now, but I enjoy the idea of sniping, and have hope that this class will be worked on and made more suitable for the game. SOE didn't want to introduce Jedi as playable at first, because they knew 99% of the players would go right for it, so instead half of them went for Bounty Hunter, and the other half Commando. *Thumbs up* Good thinking ! =P