Rifleman Archive
Thread: Rangers, Stealth, and Sniping
I would say that our non-cover/stealth related skills should be given a DPS boost to fulfill our 5-star damage role, but overall I'm quite happy with the focus and feel of rifleman now and don't think we need anything as major as a revamp.
Have to say that yeah, you should be out stealthed by Rangers, it is their/our raison d`etre. Combined with rifleman they are formidable now (and post revamp should be better). On the Damage front Riflemen/women/sentients should be directed damage specialists. I.E. they can take 1 target down quick, whereas Commandos should be Area damage dealers, i.e. more damage, but less speed and split between targets.
Ackehece wrote:
LecheHombre wrote:
I remember back pre-CU when there was large debates over whether rifleman should continue to be "heavy gunner" ala strafe 2 or sniper-esque, a role that wasn't really viable then. At that point, I liked the heavy gunner philosophy. But now, I think that the area gunning role has been taken on by carbineer, and I like it there. I think right now we are a pretty good combination of heavy single-target gunning and stealthy sniper-ish roles.
I would say that our non-cover/stealth related skills should be given a DPS boost to fulfill our 5-star damage role, but overall I'm quite happy with the focus and feel of rifleman now and don't think we need anything as major as a revamp.
*points out that your favorite correspondent (ME ^_- ) was always in the heavy gunner camp - and am willing to return to it*
If our steath and damage dealing worked I would be happy with the way we are but it currently doesn't. We are outdamaged by non nukers, we are outstealthed by everyone that has it.... makes me wonder what their idea of rifleman is now. I intend to ask just that question soon.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Have to say that yeah, you should be out stealthed by Rangers, it is their/our raison d`etre. Combined with rifleman they are formidable now (and post revamp should be better). On the Damage front Riflemen/women/sentients should be directed damage specialists. I.E. they can take 1 target down quick, whereas Commandos should be Area damage dealers, i.e. more damage, but less speed and split between targets.
Ackehece wrote:
LecheHombre wrote:
I remember back pre-CU when there was large debates over whether rifleman should continue to be "heavy gunner" ala strafe 2 or sniper-esque, a role that wasn't really viable then. At that point, I liked the heavy gunner philosophy. But now, I think that the area gunning role has been taken on by carbineer, and I like it there. I think right now we are a pretty good combination of heavy single-target gunning and stealthy sniper-ish roles.
I would say that our non-cover/stealth related skills should be given a DPS boost to fulfill our 5-star damage role, but overall I'm quite happy with the focus and feel of rifleman now and don't think we need anything as major as a revamp.
*points out that your favorite correspondent (ME ^_- ) was always in the heavy gunner camp - and am willing to return to it*
If our steath and damage dealing worked I would be happy with the way we are but it currently doesn't. We are outdamaged by non nukers, we are outstealthed by everyone that has it.... makes me wonder what their idea of rifleman is now. I intend to ask just that question soon.
good in theory there... but rifleman are not the damage specialists we are made out to be.
Carbineers, BHrs, all melee elites, saber jedi out damage both commandos and rifleman in pvp and anytime pve takes more then 2-3 shots.
Rangers should be good at stealth but so should rifleman - it is our reason for being. They nerf'd our damage output and gave us a degraded version of the stealth we had asa replacement. Rifleman by their very job titles are supposed to be stealthy. You haveone tree dedicated to stealth... we have one as well. Does that mean you should be better then us at stealth???? Not in my estimation. You should be similar or same. you have the antistealth stuff which we don't and that is where you should be better then us.
Ackehece wrote:
LecheHombre wrote:
I remember back pre-CU when there was large debates over whether rifleman should continue to be "heavy gunner" ala strafe 2 or sniper-esque, a role that wasn't really viable then. At that point, I liked the heavy gunner philosophy. But now, I think that the area gunning role has been taken on by carbineer, and I like it there. I think right now we are a pretty good combination of heavy single-target gunning and stealthy sniper-ish roles.
I would say that our non-cover/stealth related skills should be given a DPS boost to fulfill our 5-star damage role, but overall I'm quite happy with the focus and feel of rifleman now and don't think we need anything as major as a revamp.
*points out that your favorite correspondent (ME ^_- ) was always in the heavy gunner camp - and am willing to return to it*
If our steath and damage dealing worked I would be happy with the way we are but it currently doesn't. We are outdamaged by non nukers, we are outstealthed by everyone that has it.... makes me wonder what their idea of rifleman is now. I intend to ask just that question soon.
Hmmm I think I was in the both camps, but mainly gunner (Come on Advanced Strafe every second is Just B---ing!).
But since we are now Sniper/Single shot DD the Ranger Revamp has many implications for our already weak profession. Will our Suprise attack role be negated from CM's, Pistoleers, and Carbineers with Master Ranger?
Imagine that a Master CM/Ranger that breaks camo by Paralyzing it's target and then applies all those nasty Debuffs and finally a DOT or two?
Or a Pistoleer/Ranger that breaks camo by rooting, or a carbineer that breaks cammo with a KD. I foresee many angry jedi being hunted by BH/Rangers (Talk about a real Alpha Strike).
I think Rifleman needs to maintain our sniper role (Developers will make you an immortal God before they give you any direct damage so asking for more DD will end with nothing, it's just their nature)and to do that Conceal Shot and Sniper shot have to work in cammo without being broken (Unlessan enemy is within 40m of us using either shot, this way the shots are more balanced, since we have to be prone and have to use the shots when people are not around us.)
Message Edited by PyscoJuggalo on 09-18-2005 09:14 PM
I agree that both our stealthy sniper-ish skills and our single target nuke/DPS master skills are underwhelming right now. I think that fast crawl speed would make cover PvP viable. PvE, it still leaves something to be desired, as anything you conceal shot tends to draw a bead on you in 1 or 2 shots, whether you change position or not. I don't want it to be as crazy as pre-CU, where if you have the patience you can essentially shoot conceal shots all day long, but having better AI to simulate your target trying to figure out where the fire is coming from would be quite welcome.
To get more specific than my previous post about direct damage upgrade potential, I mainly think it would be best to ask for headshot to get re-ordered in the list of high damage specials... Currently I believe that in terms of damage multipliers, Critical Shot > Legshot > Headshot > Bodyshot. I think it would make much more sense for Headshot to be at the top of that list. Critical Shot should possibly be near the bottom in terms of its standard damage mult (BH role is defined as a 3 in damage), but a random critical hit with it should approach or exceed headshot. It would make seem to make sense logically for bodyshot to be higher than legshot, but for the sake of maintaining the profession roles of carbineer and pistoleer, leg should remain higher than body.
So perhaps under my reworked system, Headshot > Legshot > Critical Shot (although crit might exceed leg if you consider the random critical hits in a long-term set of samples) > Body Shot.
With those changes and the actual damage mults set correctly, I think we could have a viable claim on a nuker role out of the box, without stacking from BH or carbineer.
LecheHombre wrote:
Headshot > Legshot > Critical Shot (although crit might exceed leg if you consider the random critical hits in a long-term set of samples) > Body Shot.
The BH's would skin your wookie hide if this happened
But yeah head shot needs a severe boost........
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Rifleman stealth is the STRONGEST! It is the only one you can attack from without losing your stealth.
I take it you've never seen a concealshot? Or at least not seen one delivered in PvP anyhow. It does considerably low damage, and after merely 2 shots we are revealed.
A Jedi being cloaked then popping up with a saber throw or other attack would outdamage our 2 'hidden' shots are usually less than that 1 shot and in the end we're both revealed. Same could be said of the new system where you sneak up behind someone then deliver [____] high powered attack. If snipershot where to also fall under the role of a concealed attack I would grant this to you, however at the moment it works the same as any other high powered attack. We'd lose our cover the second it was fired, same as a cloaked jedi attacking, same as a camo'd ranger attacking.
We also have the least mobility, hell for all intents and purposes we're rooted to the spot. Noone knows the speed of your stealth movement so if they are comparable (I hope for your sake it isn't) but given that we're crawling and your walking the likelihood is that you're faster. A somewhat poor analogy, and I keep telling myself to stop with the analogies, would be a spider and a bee. A spider is deadlier (concealshot) however we can't move much further than our web if we want to stay competitive in that environment. A wasp, he can move around floating like a butterfly and stinging like a bee. As soon as he stings you you're aware of the bee, and if you pay close enough attention you may spot the bee beforehand,but he can sting you pretty much anywhere. You can't keep yourself out of the bee's path however you can always look for a likely spot of a spiderweb.
But regardless of all that, I don't want to start a pissing match between who's sneakier. This is basically meant to be a discussion of the new mod for discovering invisible peoples. In our most current role we get to play snipers and counter-snipers. Snipers are good at noticing likely spots for other people who plan on ambushing us. We are attentive to terrain details as well as where the shadows lie in cities. Etc. Shouldn't this role provide us with some basic stats in the 'discover' mod thrown about in the countersniper tree as well as master box? Again I'm not suggesting we become on par with rangers, however why should we be so below them in this regard? Hell I was really hoping for this sort of mod to come out with /cover in the CURB so we could spot other /covering snipers.
The cap for TN could be +50, attained at master scout as it is now. This would behave exactly as TN does now, with full "hill immunity" at +50 TN.
An entirely separate mod should be added for rifleman and the new ranger, of either a consolidated "crawl speed" mod for both, or "crawl speed" for rifleman and "sneak" for ranger. With these mods, a rifleman at concealment 4 or master could get +50 CS, and have the same crawl speed as a person with +100TN currently. This would be separate from TN though, so a rifleman could be slow on hills but a fast crawler. I feel that giving rifleman current +100TN crawl speed would make conceal more viable without in any means being overpowering.
The new ranger system could use the same mod, but it would probably be better to use a different one to avoid entanglement with stacking issues. Theirs would mitigate the level of the snare that is applied while they are camoflauged/concealed/whatever, with master ranger allowing for a concealed walk speed somewhere between standard walking speed and run speed.
I have suggested this idea in the past, but people always thought it sounds like a nerf to ranger, which is absolutely not my intention. I just feel that riflemen have a viable reason to want crawl speed, and it really doesn't provide much of any benefit for rangers currently. Yes, I was a master ranger for a long time, and yes, I know that crawling makes camo and mask scent less likely to break. Still, it would be better to increase the effectiveness of those skills *without* requiring crawling (they badly need a boost anyway, especially in the post-CU era), and we are still left with the fact that crawl speed can provide a non-overpowering, sensible benefit to riflemen.
And, in my opinion the time is ripe to bring up these issues right now, with the ranger revamp looming and with the upcoming publish 24 removing the group TN bonuses.
Oh, and one final counter-before-it-is-brought-up... Yes, I know there is +TN BE clothing. Problem is, I'm a wookiee. I can get it on a bandolier and wipe out my ability to carry a backpack, or on a shoulderpad and wipe out chest/arm armor, or on a hood and wipe out chest/head armor. I'd be OK with forcing that decision if it applied to everybody, but not when other species can wear undershirts that provide the bonuses without knocking out armor or carrying room.
Well, I am a MBH and M Rifleman, and I wouldnt mind seeing ...Critical Shot = Headshot > Legshot > Body Shot
Currently I also have dabbled in Pistol 0404 forStopping and Disarming Shots, but am very interested in what Ranger might have to offer, and would gladly drop the pistols for Ranger - but that all depends. I would love to see KneeCap Shot tuened into a short duration Root instead of a Snare so that the Pistoleer;s Stopping Shot is ALWAYS a longer duration than the Rifleman version (like the basic KneeCap does3 seconds and basic Stopping does 5, improved might do K6/S10
I think stealthiness would significantly resolve some of our Agro issues when soloing (Squad Leaders could help with that when grouping) but stealth doent matter much if we cant shoot.
What I wouldn't mind seeing is the allowance of shots while concealed, but the level of shot determines the chance of losing concealment (not just for Rifleman, but all professions that can Conceal). Conceal Shot (Unique) should have a 0% chance of breaking conealment, but it should do Basic Ranged Shot damage, Improved would do a little better, like Placed or Aimed. Advanced Attacks could have a 33% chance of breaking concealment, and Improved Attacks have a 66% chance. I would even go as far as to say 'Basic' Attacks have a 99% chance (giving a 1% chance that you could use a shot like Torso Shot and not lose concealment).
I would think that a Ranger/Melle combo would also benefit from this idea - kinda a Ninja-esque thought or someone getting right up on you and slicing you with a Sword and you still dont see them.
Now I know what some will say - "Then Everyone will be Master Ranger plus something". My response to that is "Not for long"...if everyone is Master Ranger than everyone has the ability to detect a concealed player, and will drop it. Jedi will not be able to afford it, and a template like me might forgo the trapping and stealing just to be able to stand up and shoot while concealed. There are a lot of MBH/Rifleman and a lot of MBH/MCMs that would only want to dabble in Ranger.
Jedi would also enjoy being able to use Advanced Force Knockdown or Advanced Saber Throw with a slight chance of losing their Cloak.
Darth I don't think Ranger is going to FOTM either.
SL is coming out with some really neato features in the future and Smugglers are actually gonna smuggle (FINALLY), so the FOTM'ness will be reduced alot. It's my hope that things balance out more though, because everyone being a Rifleman/BH is bad for our professions because in BH that means Torso Shot's bleedaint getting fixed and the Blind stateis not getting boosted and in Rifleman that means conceal shot aint gonna get fixed and to hell with our Damage buff proposals.
So I'm definately not against Rangers becomeing Stealthy, I just hope our Stealth + Their Stealth = Really Stealthy Stealth
I think my whole opinion on this is quite simple.
Lets ditch the Sniper mindset, and be rifleman.
I wouldnt mind bein a Damage dealer again, I regularly see pistols and Carbines that have higher DPS and lower sack.
Ive seen some higher damaging Rifles but they take an awaful lot of creds to get.
PyscoJuggalo wrote:
LecheHombre wrote:
Headshot > Legshot > Critical Shot (although crit might exceed leg if you consider the random critical hits in a long-term set of samples) > Body Shot.
The BH's would skin your wookie hide if this happened
But yeah head shot needs a severe boost........
Lol, they most certainly would. Still, I think it is odd that they get the highest damage mult special, when their role is defined to be 3/5/1 for Offense/Defense/CC. Especially when it not only is the highest mult, but grants the added benefit of being likely to apply critical damage...
Maybe as a peace offering to any BH's out there, I'll say this: If Critical Shot was to be nerfed as I suggest, I would say that the +return fire+ damage from Duelist Stance should be given a large upgrade. It already provides an excellent defense boost, but the "reflecting damage" portion of it is drastically overstated in the skill descriptor.