Rifleman Archive
Thread: EMPIRICAL DATA and TESTING REQUIRED -- rifle damage as it relates to speed
Geddeo
Sat May 07, 2005 12:11 am
#14
CraftAddict wrote:
Geddeo wrote:
The big limiting factor with the rifle is the action cost. Pumping out as much dmg as I can as fast as I can I run out of action soon after killing 1 creature. At this point I switch to our weakest shot (I don't know what it is, I just doubleclick on the creature) and follow that with a hs. This seems to keep the action bar at a steady rate allowing me to fire this combo forever. The doubleclick shot only does 500-600 dmg, but throwing in the 1000-1100 hs puts that at 1600 for 2 shots compared to the pistol that gets around 1400 in the same amount of time.
Look I don't have exact numbers, but you seem to be missing something. In non-stop fighting, which will do better, burst DPS or sustained damage. The key to point of your post was that you are out of action after one kill whereas the pistol is doing a high sustained damage compared to the action cost. Granteed this is just observation, but the high damage you attribute to rifles is the high multiplier specials that rifles use. You also fail to reconize the advantages of using a rifle with other profession specials, in your post, but you turn around and say that bodyshot and legshot (both not rifleman specials) combines with headshot makes good dps.
I'm not saying rifles dont hit the hardests, I'm saying they can't sustain the damage over time that other professions can manage. And this is wihtout factoring profession combinations. Just each compared based on their own merits.
Again, I haven't run any numbers, but I strongly beleive this is the case and will continue to do so until I am proven wrong, which is unlikely. However, until we have those unmbers this is all acedemic.
I did look into the action cost as the limiting factor, and I also stated that I can use headshot alternated withdouble-clicking the creature (this combo uses only rifle specials)and I still do more dmg per second than I would with a pistol and I can do that forever. I also pointed out that while my rifle pumps out more dps in almost all situations, it isn't my weapon of choice in all situations. I use the pistol a lot in situations where I have to spam a lot of specials back to back to keep the tanks alive or to tank myself. Rifle (at least the T21 andADV Laser)isn't good for spamming a ton of big specials over time, but we are good at dealing out dmg, tons of dmg if we want to deplete our action bars, more dmg than pistol at least if we do not want to deplete our action bars.
I was also master carbine for a while on my first respec, but I didn't have very good carbines to test it with. Carbine may be able to do more sustained damage over time, but if you want to put a big hurt on something fast you will need a rifle and a full action bar. I thought this is what role we were supposed to be playing, am I wrong?
CraftAddict
Sat May 07, 2005 12:47 am
#15
OK, I think we are argueing the same position.
You are saying that a pistoleer or carb will not out damage a rifleman over time, which I say they will. I'll conceed that it is possible that they won't, BUT the difference in DPS is oging to be very small if that it the case.
I just don't want someone coming into rifleman thinking that they will be doing as much damage over time as they will burst compared to other professions. Thats what I'm getting it when it comes down to it. The longer riflemen fight, the less of a damage advantage we have vs the other ranged professions.
Which, going full circle is why speed doesn't do all that much for rifleman, except to help their damage over time. It will not improve their burst specials like head, aimed , sniper , and concealed shot as much as it will improve there base damage of time.
Ok, I think I got it out clearly enough that time. Like I said though, this is mostly acedemic, except for carb or pistol users looking to match rifle damage by looking for high damage weapons (not neccissarily the highest dps.) as some of these weapons come close.
You are saying that a pistoleer or carb will not out damage a rifleman over time, which I say they will. I'll conceed that it is possible that they won't, BUT the difference in DPS is oging to be very small if that it the case.
I just don't want someone coming into rifleman thinking that they will be doing as much damage over time as they will burst compared to other professions. Thats what I'm getting it when it comes down to it. The longer riflemen fight, the less of a damage advantage we have vs the other ranged professions.
Which, going full circle is why speed doesn't do all that much for rifleman, except to help their damage over time. It will not improve their burst specials like head, aimed , sniper , and concealed shot as much as it will improve there base damage of time.
Ok, I think I got it out clearly enough that time. Like I said though, this is mostly acedemic, except for carb or pistol users looking to match rifle damage by looking for high damage weapons (not neccissarily the highest dps.) as some of these weapons come close.
-JungleKing-
Sat May 07, 2005 12:18 pm
#16
Ackehece wrote:having improved headshot/bodyshot/legshot I can cycle them instantly 1 after the other. Speed does help without haveing a faster rifle I found I was shooting much slower. At least one is recharged all the time so I can chain them. If you use specials with long charge ups you will not notice the effect of speed but if you have moderate recharge rate specials (such as the aformentioned ones) you can link them together in a continous chain of death. (my action is my limiting faction - 7 secs of firing = me dry even double stacking drugs + food + doc buffs)
Thanks Ackehence, so because of that do you advise me(being Rangr/Rifle)to slice/experiment/power up my riles on damage only and not in speed since i cannot fire as quick as i would fire being a mixed combat template?
jalexu
Sat May 07, 2005 9:18 pm
#18
Ackehece wrote:
having improved headshot/bodyshot/legshot I can cycle them instantly 1 after the other. Speed does help without haveing a faster rifle I found I was shooting much slower. At least one is recharged all the time so I can chain them. If you use specials with long charge ups you will not notice the effect of speed but if you have moderate recharge rate specials (such as the aformentioned ones) you can link them together in a continous chain of death. (my action is my limiting faction - 7 secs of firing = me dry even double stacking drugs + food + doc buffs)
I can see here a reason to carry different versions of the same weapon. You'll have to judge before fight wether to usehigh action cost / high damage for a quick killor low action cost / lower damage for prolonged fights. I did such a test tonight, using a 104 action cost pre-CU converted T21 and a 85 action cost FWG5 against a 12k HAM stormtrooper. With the T21 I had to stop and waitdue to action drain 4-5 times before I killed him, with the pistol I didn't stop once.
Kormack2
Sun May 08, 2005 6:33 am
#20
Well here's a little thing I found. I'm master marks, rifle and pistol - speed 150 and acc 328. I've found hitem with a stopping shot wil freeze them long enough to cycle through 3 or 4 head shots and lethal shots. That's 1500 to 1700 a shot, puts a pretty good hurt on most critters. Seems like I'm pumpin them out in slightly more than one shot every 2 seconds. Also take a chew of some canape and a pull on the old brandy bottle helps the regen rate, after the kill sit for a sec and the action goes up to max then ready for the next one. Not a mathmatician so not even tryin to do the numbers but been pretty effective so far.
Just a thought
Kormack
Ackehece
Sun May 08, 2005 8:33 am
#21
CharPrime wrote:
with 144 speed i am still shooting specials at 4 secs
it sounds like you are using the same special over and over... that is the slowest method of attack now.
CraftAddict
Sun May 08, 2005 11:24 am
#22
actually, that fits with my usual method of using headshot and following with aimed shot, they are on different timers, but it still comes out to about 4 seconds refresh on both. If someone wants to show me that speed effects the use of specials, besides ranged and placed, then please do, as I haven't noticed any difference between my speed upgrades and elite special's timers.
Id be very interestinged in this, because a lot of my conclusions on how the rifleman works are founded on preset timers on specials not being affected by speed.
Id be very interestinged in this, because a lot of my conclusions on how the rifleman works are founded on preset timers on specials not being affected by speed.
Mujadaddy
Sun May 08, 2005 11:35 am
#23
CraftAddict wrote:
Mujadaddy wrote:
So, the real point of this thread is to introduce into the discussion the fact that Rifle DPS (is roughly) = other ranged prof's DPS.
Which is a load of bantha provender, if you ask me.
If we're going to empty our action bar in 7-20 seconds, we really should have a SIGNIFICANT damage boost for doing so. Headshot only does about twice what Snipershot does. I think, to be fair and to not allow dabbling or FotM'ing, Snipershot needs a bit of a damage bump . . . about 50% so that, for its immense time and action drain, it is worth firing even in the middle of a fight. First strike is fine and dandy, but NOT BEING A NUKER is NOT acceptable . . .
On a related subject, you guys say Aimed Shot is a good "non-Action-depletion" special? How does the damage compare to Placed Shot? (i've been using all high damage specials back to back, like head-leg-head-leg, but different ones . . .
More direct and to the point. Here's a sampling of data that I've collected which may answer some of your questions. This is far from complete, but beter than nothing.
Aeriwen Bjorin
---------------------------------------
Spray Stick
Combat Level Required: 14
Skill Required: Novice Rifleman
Damage Type: Kinetic
Arrack Speed: 2.96
Modified Speed: 2.38
Damage: 124-262
Elemental Type: Heat
Elemental Damage: 99
Accuracy Bonus: 0
Wound: 10.76%
Estimated Base DPS: 98.77
Modified DPS: 122.8
Range: 0-65m
Special Attack Cost: 104
---------------------------------------
Target: Equal level Imperial mission lair objects.
Accuracy Value 135 160
Firearm Strike 100 105
Knee-cap Shot 575 590
Roll Shot 915 945
Kip Up Shot 1030 1060
Dive Shot 1030 1060
Ranged Shot 1150 1185
Placed Shot 1265 1300
Aimed Shot 1375 1420
Overcharge Shot 1490 1535
Improved Head Shot 2065 2130
Sniper Shot 3450 NA
Conceal Shot NA 2605
Improved Sniper Shot NA 3790
Specials noted are listed as such, so Headshot is Headshot, and Improved headshot is a separate consideration. Notice that I have data for Snipershot, but not Improved Snipershot. Each special, even upgrades are given separate lines. Each special judging by past observations, improve the specials main effect, so in the case of damage specials like headshot and snipershot, the damage multiplier will be increased.
Very nice . . . kudos . . .
What I'd like to see is some data that, more than damage values, is the TIMESTAMPS for various speed weapons (all rifles to not queer the results) . . .
CraftAddict
Mon May 09, 2005 7:02 am
#24
As soon as my CSR ticket is cleared, I can make the weapons I need to test accuratly. But I'll here's my planed proceedure, if anyone cares to pick it apart for error, and any other tests that I can easily run alongside.
I'll make 2 CDEF rifles.
One will be absolute minimum experimentation. I'm aiming for the maximum 3 second delay. I'll have to use very crappy materials, so that the base experimentation is very low. This will be difficult in itself, but at the very worst, I think I say some 3 second CDEFs for sale on the bazaar.
The other will be max experimentation into speed, I don't care who many points it takes to get the exact minimum delay, but I should be able to do it, if its my only objective, instead of the normal more efficent use of skill points and resources that go into items. I've been unable to find a CDEF for sale with anything under 2.2 delay, but with effort, I think I can break this as I've seen other weapon break this barrior and it appears that all weapons have the same speed range, no matter the type. I have in fact a 1.9 dagger, so theoreticly its possible.
The setup will be vs even con imperial lairs.
10 shots alternating fire between 2 specials
10 shots alternating between 3 specials
10 shots with with each special
10 shots prone.
10 shots standing
10 shots kneeling
This routine once for the slow rifle and the again for the fast rifle.
If data accuracy is a problem, the I'll have to go back to 100 shots for an extra decimal. I do hope that Isn't needed, this will be a job in itself.
I should using this data be able to tell what effect weapon speed has on specials timers, be it the glaobal timer that kicks in even when you alternate shots, or the special refresh when you spam the same special.
As an addition, I'll be able to say what each special's timer is. What effect if any will posture have on speed. The merits of using 2 specials combos and 2 special combos.
Damage data with a low damage weapon for each special. Verify past damage multiplier values collected.
Drive me insane.
I'll make 2 CDEF rifles.
One will be absolute minimum experimentation. I'm aiming for the maximum 3 second delay. I'll have to use very crappy materials, so that the base experimentation is very low. This will be difficult in itself, but at the very worst, I think I say some 3 second CDEFs for sale on the bazaar.
The other will be max experimentation into speed, I don't care who many points it takes to get the exact minimum delay, but I should be able to do it, if its my only objective, instead of the normal more efficent use of skill points and resources that go into items. I've been unable to find a CDEF for sale with anything under 2.2 delay, but with effort, I think I can break this as I've seen other weapon break this barrior and it appears that all weapons have the same speed range, no matter the type. I have in fact a 1.9 dagger, so theoreticly its possible.
The setup will be vs even con imperial lairs.
10 shots alternating fire between 2 specials
10 shots alternating between 3 specials
10 shots with with each special
10 shots prone.
10 shots standing
10 shots kneeling
This routine once for the slow rifle and the again for the fast rifle.
If data accuracy is a problem, the I'll have to go back to 100 shots for an extra decimal. I do hope that Isn't needed, this will be a job in itself.
I should using this data be able to tell what effect weapon speed has on specials timers, be it the glaobal timer that kicks in even when you alternate shots, or the special refresh when you spam the same special.
As an addition, I'll be able to say what each special's timer is. What effect if any will posture have on speed. The merits of using 2 specials combos and 2 special combos.
Damage data with a low damage weapon for each special. Verify past damage multiplier values collected.
Drive me insane.
Ackehece
Mon May 09, 2005 7:58 am
#25
CraftAddict wrote:
As soon as my CSR ticket is cleared, I can make the weapons I need to test accuratly. But I'll here's my planed proceedure, if anyone cares to pick it apart for error, and any other tests that I can easily run alongside.
Nice test - but it will be hard to prove anything with it as speed works on a non-linear system now. the difference between a 1.3 sec gun with the same base rifle speed on the user and a 1.5 sec will be hard to spot. (it will be there - but not as much as if you use wildly differing speed)
If you want this test to be valid.
- pick up rifle speed in groups of10 and use the same rifle.
- riflespeed 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, 120, 130 etc
- I also wonder if generic speed mods add as much as specific to total speed ( I would think so but this has to be considered as well)
- I suggest a CDEF rifle vs a player with a set ranged defense rating as lairs even at the same con levels and typecan possibly have different resists.
CraftAddict
Tue May 10, 2005 9:08 am
#26
1. I will be finding at least a 1 second spread on these tests between weapons.
2. Imperial even con lairs have been producing the same results throughout all my testing. The target condition's have never changed. There is no variance in resist (none) or defense (none), only hitpoints with the tools I've been using. Using random lairs produces different results, but I'm able to repeat my conditions to the letter with imperial even con lairs. I haven't even noticed a difference in imperial lairs of different levels, except for maybe hitpoints.
Thanks for the suggestion on speed mods, but Firstly, I'd run out of time doing tests using respec to change my speed mods ad have a harder time maintaining the same accuracy and damage. Secondly, if anything is non-linear, its the weapon speed mods. And last, I'm trying to test weapon speed, not the effect of speed mods.
UPDATE: Finding a CDEF speed spread of 1 second is going ot be harder than I thought. I hope the new changes to resource calculations help this out some.
2. Imperial even con lairs have been producing the same results throughout all my testing. The target condition's have never changed. There is no variance in resist (none) or defense (none), only hitpoints with the tools I've been using. Using random lairs produces different results, but I'm able to repeat my conditions to the letter with imperial even con lairs. I haven't even noticed a difference in imperial lairs of different levels, except for maybe hitpoints.
Thanks for the suggestion on speed mods, but Firstly, I'd run out of time doing tests using respec to change my speed mods ad have a harder time maintaining the same accuracy and damage. Secondly, if anything is non-linear, its the weapon speed mods. And last, I'm trying to test weapon speed, not the effect of speed mods.
UPDATE: Finding a CDEF speed spread of 1 second is going ot be harder than I thought. I hope the new changes to resource calculations help this out some.
Message Edited by CraftAddict on 05-10-2005 11:14 AM