Rifleman Archive
Thread: EMPIRICAL DATA and TESTING REQUIRED -- rifle damage as it relates to speed
My modDPS on nearly ALL of my Jawa's is higher than my T21's damage, but BECAUSE no one can spam hits at one per second any more, there is a point where the modified speed of your weapon DOES NOT help you any more because you're stuck waiting for a special to recharge.
RESULT -- no noticeable increase in shooting speed weilding a Jawa over a T21, while the T21 does MUCH more damage per hit
Also --- powerups --- p'ups that were MinDamage/MaxDamage are now INCREASING speed as well as increasing damage. The speed rises and the damage rises, but the DPS stays about the same.
RESULT -- no noticeable decrease in shooting speed while the damage goes up, resulting in MORE damage
These are just observations, but it *feels* like there's an unofficial speed cap, imposed by the recharge of special attacks, and that DAMAGE is still the most important stat on a weapon, as long as speed is in a certain range.
Thoughts?
id agree..
ive always gone for max damage over speed/dps. dps would be a good measure if we still had auto attack.. but as every attack is now a special.. and at rifle it seems that we are capped at max special speed... then its logical that the more bang on your gun the better.
John_p has done some testing on this which I believe to be the most accurat, the main post is in the weaponsmith forum, do a user search and look it up. There are some interesting find there.
I had hoped the system didn't work this way, but it appears that it does. I can't believe that they implemented it this way, but there is a good reason for this. Opening the specials system to use the DPS value would make the system more suseptable to "broken" behaviors. Things like +damage/-speed P-up would be godly. And the specials themselves would be hard to balance due to "quadratic" or exponential gains you would see by messing with speed. They seem dead set on making improved speed an advancement reward.
In any case, no, unless you are using an instant special with low refresh, you will never see a difference with improving speed. I imagine this is what will make pistols and carbines out damage rifles over time.
I am not sorry to say that you are wrong about pistols outdamaging rifles over time Aeriwen. I am master pistol and master rifle and have an above average T21, Dxr and Republic blaster. I can shoot my rifles just as fast as my pistols if I alternate between headshot, startleshot and bodyshot.
At the same speed my rifle does 1100 with hs, 900 with startle and bodyshot against a level 80 creature. My pistol does 800 with hs and 650 with body and startleshots against the same creature.
The big limiting factor with the rifle is the action cost. Pumping out as much dmg as I can as fast as I can I run out of action soon after killing 1 creature. At this point I switch to our weakest shot (I don't know what it is, I just doubleclick on the creature) and follow that with a hs. This seems to keep the action bar at a steady rate allowing me to fire this combo forever. The doubleclick shot only does 500-600 dmg, but throwing in the 1000-1100 hs puts that at 1600 for 2 shots compared to the pistol that gets around 1400 in the same amount of time.
If I start off with a snipershot there is a huge difference in dps since that shot will usually land 2200-2500 dmg, but I will only use this for a first shot since it is so slow. I hunt with another rifleman and when we both start off with snipershot at the same time, level 78-83 creatures are more than half dead after the first volley. I don't thinktwo pistoleers could do that.
This isn't to say I don't use pistol. In fact, I use pistol most of the time since I don't miss as much at close range, I have better defense, I run faster, and I can spam more specials without running out of action. Pistol for me works a lot better when I am solo, or the group needs me to take over tanking, but straight dmg dealing is still my rifles job, which is the role we were assigned.
If you really want to see DPS and raw speed count for something, try this template: Master Marksman, Master Rifle, 3 trees ofCarbines including Leg shot & 3 trees of Pistols including Body shot. The for the Pistols & Carbines you pick the trees, but I'd highly suggest you include Adv/Improved Charge Shot, Crippeling Shot, Stopping Shot, and dumping the rest into general ranged speed. (I'm at work, or I'd name the trees I used 
)
Once you've got that, set the Auto-Attack to a nice easy shot like Ranged shot, but don't use it unless your just killing off a lair or you need to chat. Line up Head Shot, Body Shot & Leg Shot all in a pretty row on the toolbar. Start with a Charge shot for the KD, and then cycle through those 3 shots. With them operating on different cooldowns timers, the only thing you need to wait for is the cyclic rate on yourweapon before you put another round downrange. If your in a real frey, I'd highly suggest using buffs, food & spice to keep that action up, or you'll be out of wind before the fights half over. Having Charge, Stopping, Crippeling, & Startle setand ready will also make you a greatsupportasset to your group, in addition to the pure killing power of DPS.
Geddeo wrote:I am not sorry to say that you are wrong about pistols outdamaging rifles over time Aeriwen. I am master pistol and master rifle and have an above average T21, Dxr and Republic blaster. I can shoot my rifles just as fast as my pistols if I alternate between headshot, startleshot and bodyshot.
At the same speed my rifle does 1100 with hs, 900 with startle and bodyshot against a level 80 creature. My pistol does 800 with hs and 650 with body and startleshots against the same creature.
The big limiting factor with the rifle is the action cost. Pumping out as much dmg as I can as fast as I can I run out of action soon after killing 1 creature. At this point I switch to our weakest shot (I don't know what it is, I just doubleclick on the creature) and follow that with a hs. This seems to keep the action bar at a steady rate allowing me to fire this combo forever. The doubleclick shot only does 500-600 dmg, but throwing in the 1000-1100 hs puts that at 1600 for 2 shots compared to the pistol that gets around 1400 in the same amount of time.
If I start off with a snipershot there is a huge difference in dps since that shot will usually land 2200-2500 dmg, but I will only use this for a first shot since it is so slow. I hunt with another rifleman and when we both start off with snipershot at the same time, level 78-83 creatures are more than half dead after the first volley. I don't thinktwo pistoleers could do that.
This isn't to say I don't use pistol. In fact, I use pistol most of the time since I don't miss as much at close range, I have better defense, I run faster, and I can spam more specials without running out of action. Pistol for me works a lot better when I am solo, or the group needs me to take over tanking, but straight dmg dealing is still my rifles job, which is the role we were assigned.
Look I don't have exact numbers, but you seem to be missing something. In non-stop fighting, which will do better, burst DPS or sustained damage. The key to point of your post was that you are out of action after one kill whereas the pistol is doing a high sustained damage compared to the action cost. Granteed this is just observation, but the high damage you attribute to rifles is the high multiplier specials that rifles use. You also fail to reconize the advantages of using a rifle with other profession specials, in your post, but you turn around and say that bodyshot and legshot (both not rifleman specials) combines with headshot makes good dps.
I'm not saying rifles dont hit the hardests, I'm saying they can't sustain the damage over time that other professions can manage. And this is wihtout factoring profession combinations. Just each compared based on their own merits.
Again, I haven't run any numbers, but I strongly beleive this is the case and will continue to do so until I am proven wrong, which is unlikely. However, until we have those unmbers this is all acedemic.
Which is a load of bantha provender, if you ask me.
If we're going to empty our action bar in 7-20 seconds, we really should have a SIGNIFICANT damage boost for doing so. Headshot only does about twice what Snipershot does. I think, to be fair and to not allow dabbling or FotM'ing, Snipershot needs a bit of a damage bump . . . about 50% so that, for its immense time and action drain, it is worth firing even in the middle of a fight. First strike is fine and dandy, but NOT BEING A NUKER is NOT acceptable . . .
On a related subject, you guys say Aimed Shot is a good "non-Action-depletion" special? How does the damage compare to Placed Shot? (i've been using all high damage specials back to back, like head-leg-head-leg, but different ones . . .
Mujadaddy wrote:
So, the real point of this thread is to introduce into the discussion the fact that Rifle DPS (is roughly) = other ranged prof's DPS.
Which is a load of bantha provender, if you ask me.
If we're going to empty our action bar in 7-20 seconds, we really should have a SIGNIFICANT damage boost for doing so. Headshot only does about twice what Snipershot does. I think, to be fair and to not allow dabbling or FotM'ing, Snipershot needs a bit of a damage bump . . . about 50% so that, for its immense time and action drain, it is worth firing even in the middle of a fight. First strike is fine and dandy, but NOT BEING A NUKER is NOT acceptable . . .
On a related subject, you guys say Aimed Shot is a good "non-Action-depletion" special? How does the damage compare to Placed Shot? (i've been using all high damage specials back to back, like head-leg-head-leg, but different ones . . .
More direct and to the point. Here's a sampling of data that I've collected which may answer some of your questions. This is far from complete, but beter than nothing.
Aeriwen Bjorin
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Spray Stick
Combat Level Required: 14
Skill Required: Novice Rifleman
Damage Type: Kinetic
Arrack Speed: 2.96
Modified Speed: 2.38
Damage: 124-262
Elemental Type: Heat
Elemental Damage: 99
Accuracy Bonus: 0
Wound: 10.76%
Estimated Base DPS: 98.77
Modified DPS: 122.8
Range: 0-65m
Special Attack Cost: 104
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Target: Equal level Imperial mission lair objects.
Accuracy Value 135 160
Firearm Strike 100105
Knee-cap Shot 575590
Roll Shot 915945
Kip Up Shot 1030 1060
Dive Shot 1030 1060
Ranged Shot 11501185
Placed Shot 1265 1300
Aimed Shot 1375 1420
Overcharge Shot 1490 1535
Improved Head Shot 2065 2130
Sniper Shot 3450 NA
Conceal Shot NA 2605
Improved Sniper Shot NA3790
Specials noted are listed as such, so Headshot is Headshot, and Improved headshot is a separate consideration. Notice that I have data for Snipershot, but not Improved Snipershot. Each special, even upgrades are given separate lines. Each special judging by past observations, improve the specials main effect, so in the case of damage specials like headshot and snipershot, the damage multiplier will be increased.
The reason you are seeing such effective results witha rifle is that you are using large multiplier specials, back to back, something that riflemen themselves dont possess. Rifleman have headshot and aimed shot to spam and both have timers much longer than the delay between the weapon. Combine that with a similar special, bodyshot or legshot, and you end up with a not one (headshot), but 2 (bodyshot or legshot) high multiplier specials to chain together, which is a HUGE improvment over aimed shot between headshots.
Sure, your not going to beat a riflemans burst damage, its makes for great alpha-strikes or frontloaded damage, whatever you want to call it, but it does not mean they will do the best damage over time.