Rifleman Archive
Thread: Typical Rifleman PvP Fight
Hipnautik wrote:
If you want to own in combat now, be a BH and/or commando(recently) which by the way is the second highest skill point.
But if you want to be "ok" with particular weapon and do other things be a rifleman/pistoleer, etc.
Hip... You andPecos are saying the same thing, only you seem tothink its great and we riflemen think it sucks.
You are saying if you want to fight EVERYONE SHOULD BE A BH OR COMMANDO. Read your own quote above! What the hell kind of attitude is that. Why would pistoleer and rifleman even be professions in this game if that were the way it was intended. Pecos had the right question: Why would anyone want to even be a rifleman if this were the way it was intended. The fact is, it IS this way, and we're trying to get it changed. This game would be much more interesting if all combat professions could compete on a level playing field. Wow! Then the game might require Strategy! What a concept!
It certainly sounds to me (whether intentional or not) thay you are saying: "We are uber. That's the way it is. There is no place for you pitiful profession." Now read that quote above and tell me why I'm not getting your point?
Great post, Mynroe. Ownage with the numbers.
The best person for hitting health should be a Master Pistoleer.
The best person for hitting action should be a Master Carbineer.
The best person for hitting mind should bea Master Rifleman.
The Bounty Hunter should be about 75% as good at specific-pool attacks as these 3 classes. At no point should a BH be able to direct an attack at the action pool of a target for more damage than a Carbineer.
BH should have these advantages:
High accuracy and speed bonuses (check)
The ability to damage any pool they want (check)
A high damage weapon like the LLC (check)
Special ranged attacks like blinds and knockdowns (check)
Bounty hunters want all this AND (and!) they want to be the best at attacking each specific pool.
Bounty hunters aresome crack smoking paint huffers who need to understand that this game has more than 1 profession in it, and would they all please stop putting "Fett" in their name.
Those 4 advantages I listed are tremendous. The LLC by itself is tremendous. Bounty Hunters own the world and are appalled that anyone else might like the tinyest portion of it. Stay tuned for next week, when Bounty Hunters argue that they should also be the best weaponsmiths in the game, because it costs them so many points to become Bounty Hunters.
I'm sorry but if all things were equal, there'd be no point. As a Master Rifleman you only spend 92 skill points for the privledge. How good do you expect to be? A Novice Bounty Hunter spends 169 skill point. That's just to wear the Novice BH title. They spend all but 33 points to master BH.
The problem I see is that while you could master Carbineer, Pistoleer, and Rifleman and still have 4 point left is that it still wouldn't make you equal to a Master BH.
What I think Carbineers, Pistoleers, and Riflemen are really wanting is an elite-elite profession for each of the ranged weapon types.
Noules000 posted a perfect counter argument in another thread:
(....)
What is (or should be) the difference between a master rifle/scout/marksman and a master BH?
Wookiee Master Combat Medic/Rifleman
Hip...
First of all, I didNOT take rifle because I wanted to have "extra skill points.".
FYI, I completed pistol and carbine first, but just didnt like the EASE of fighting with them.
There was NO CHALLENGE. I fell in love with rifle late because there was some challenge and strategy behind it.
Second, for a riflemanto get full benefit from the rifle tree, it is best to fill out Master Marksman, which I have done. And I believe terrain navigation and some other scouting skills are necessary. Also,because of our very high melee damage (x2.5 as you should know) we are forced to delve into medic also (though not high). So not only is my training similar to BH, but I do NOT have the vast number of left over skill points that most BH like to believe.
I haven't heard much from the Commando community, so I do not know whether they are really on a par with BH. I strongly doubt it, but can not disprove it. I know they have some high damage weapons with limited range, but I haven't heard any evidence that they can win anywhere near 50% of the time against a BH.
My question to you is: Do you think this game is designed correctly if there is ONLY ONE CLASS that can compete in PvP?? Or even only TWO? I do not and that is why we riflemen are trying to fix our problems. We have put a lot of time into our class because we like the concept of it, not because we want "leftover skill points".
WayneInAustin wrote:
My question to you is: Do you think this game is designed correctly if there is ONLY ONE CLASS that can compete in PvP?? Or even only TWO? I do not and that is why we riflemen are trying to fix our problems. We have put a lot of time into our class because we like the concept of it, not because we want "leftover skill points".
Designed correctly? Yes, BH is the hardest profession to become, they deserve to be on top.
Two classes? Yes, commando is the second hardest to become, they deserve to be in the top 2.
I like alot of concepts also, some are in the game, some aren't.
And I'll go back to my original point, novice riflemen takes 35 skills points to get too, and 1 skill tree, with no mastering of anything. Novice BH takes 160 to get to and EIGHT skill trees to get to, with 2 master professions, and you still think you should be on level ground with them?!?!?! LOL.
First of all, I didNOT take rifle because I wanted to have "extra skill points.".
FYI, I completed pistol and carbine first, but just didnt like the EASE of fighting with them.
There was NO CHALLENGE. I fell in love with rifle late because there was some challenge and strategy behind it.
I completly respect that, your into a challenge and not taking the uber road, very cool.
SocialConformer - You could not have said it better. BH's are not super combatants, they are just good at tracking and capturing their mark . . . HENCE (novel concept) the scouting tree, for tracking and capturing. Most Bounty Hunters were pathetic and horrible at combat. Take greedo(no, thats been used too much) . . . how about Dengar. He tried to capture Han Solo and ended up rising his swoop bike under Han's and burning his head. Real tough combatant there . . . huh? (sarcasm) And does anyone remember how Boba Fett was taken out . . . ummmm . . . opps, Han Solo accidentally hits his jet pack. Wow, that was sure one tough guy to take out . . . you have to go as far as hitting the back of his jet pack. (more sarcasm).
So what have we learned here . . . that BH's are not super combat specialists, they are just good at tracking.
Finally, please . . . please stop saying that BH is the most difficult profession to get to. Who are you fooling, really? How long did it take anyone to get Master Marksman . . . well, if you used some of the exploits, and we all know you did, maybe a couple days. And then do you have to go back and get scout xp seperately . . . of course not, you just do it at the same time.
So yes, you do need a lot of skill points, but you are trackers after all . . . so the scout comes in handy. And the xp you need is far less than any other profession, so stop saying its hard to get to, because in actuallity its one of the easiest classes to make.
(Food for Thought) - If Bounty Hunter is supposed to be sooooo Elite and powerful, why is everyone you see in town a bounty hunter?
Hipnautik wrote:
And I'll go back to my original point, novice riflemen takes 35 skills points to get too, and 1 skill tree, with no mastering of anything. Novice BH takes 160 to get to and EIGHT skill trees to get to, with 2 master professions, and you still think you should be on level ground with them?!?!?! LOL.
Your argument doesnt fly with me, Hip,because,as I pointed out, I am Master Marksman, and I have many of the scouting boxes (I originally signed up to be a scout),and I am Master Medic because I get beat up by the melee penalty so badly. And I am halfway up the rifle tree and am OUT of skill points. So don'ttell me how easy I have it.Now,allof those things arenot "required", which is your point, but we would functionevenmore badly without them, so in a way they are required. Except for some really low level Artisan, nothing I have is "frivolous" (and that's not frivolous if i want to craft tents and stimpacks). I could(and will) probably have to start giving up medic skills to keep moving up rifle tree. (And I should point out that those medic skills don't give me any advantage over a BH with a stim B).
So lets just say I got all those skills because they were required, and not just because I just thought they were useful.Then I would have as much at stake as you guys and I still will get owned by a BH spamming Eye Shot. And my mind pool will still be empty at the end of a few volleys while a BH pops a stim B.
Now I would NOT have a problem makingMaster Marksmanrequired for Rifleman. I think we get too much too earlyfrom the marksman tree and not enough asRiflemen (before Master). As I said, I am halfway up the Rifle tree and still basically killing MOBs with rifles and skills I got in the Marksman tree. Aside from stackingMindshot2, I am 1,400,000 + XP into rifle and stilldependent mainly onmarksman skills. That is sad.
You know what burns me about his whole skill point argument? Marksman and Scout, how much time and do you actually spend to get them? How hard is it? It isn't AT ALL difficultso don't raise that flag to the folks in here who have had to spend 95% of thier time soloingthrought MILLIONS of exp to master in this profession to even compete with some fool who spent a couple days to "earn" thier novice bounty hunter title, it's laughable.
You know what I would even consider these arguments if they moved the "defining" bounty hunter abilities to the lvl 4 positions in the bounty hunter trees, or better yet make them master lvl skills then I'll buy the whole skill point argument. Imagine the outcry if eyeshotand underhand shot were master abilities!Then sure I'll accept your we worked harder to get to where we are BS, as much smoke as that is. How many bounty hunters actually get to master? How many don't ever intend of getting it because they know 01 2 0 is more than enough to pretty much own anyone else? Why waste the time to actuallygrindto master when you can also take lines in other classes to max your potential in a given weapon and not spend the time to actually get to master?
Shortcuts please. BH's have the shortcuts to "max" thier uberpistol templates and keep the "diversity" that they liketo say are only found in other professions. Sobefore you complainaboutthe points you haveto use tobecome abounty hunter, as if that is your right of passage to elite status, make it so you have to use all those points. Then when folkssee a master bounty hunter they will be aware of thier "status" as the best combat classin the game. So before then don't have the gall to say we took theshortcut to get tomasterstatus because it just shows howlimited your scope is on grinding the necessary expit takes to get to master status in an elite position.
I respect master bounty hunters becauseyes they have worked to get to where they are and by all rightsimo deserve a combat edge. But for the"bounty hunters" who have worked to 0 120 (or less) that say that because they have "earned" the bounty hunter title are entitled to own mastersof other classes are justpathetic and trying to get us to see HOW HARDIT IS TO BE A BOUNTY HUNTER or WE SHOULD BE BETTER BECAUSE(fill in the blank) just don't know who they are talking to.
Use a Weapon that may hit his Vulnerability. We Riflemen have the great Advantage of the Java Ion Rifle. Its Stun Damage is Armor Piercing Light andnearly always hits a vulnerability -unless he uses PSG and/or Stun-Layered Armor (hard to get) you get +25% Damage.
In Comparison to Laser Rifle: Armor Piercing Medium, Energy, against Composite, Armor Rating 1 with, say, 30% Energy Resistance ( rather an average suit) gives you 50% -25%- 30%= -5% Damage.
So Basically, you can compare the JIR to the Laser Rifle (or E11 Rifle) if you multiply the JIRs damage with 1.30 . That should shift the strenghts a bit.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again: With diversity comes mediocrity.
You've all thought it, you've all said it in one form or another.
Let's take yet another look back and ask ourselves, what is a bounty hunter? Is he a super, "uber" soldier bent on world domination with his all mighty "skillz"?
No. A bounty hunter is someone who can *find* people, and CAPTURE them. They tend to be pretty crafty, and they have a VARIETY of weapons at their disposal. Why, do you ask? Because, silly - most prey will be susceptible to at least one form of attack. With this variety, the Bounty Hunter will more easily be able to incapacitate his prey by attacking its weakness. And then, they will be able to bring the bounty in for their reward.
Isn't it true that Bounty Hunters spend a lot of time in training so that they will be the BEST at it?
Heavens no....A Bounty Hunter studies so many types of weapons, they couldn't possibly be the absolute best at any one weapon, although they are more than compentant in each one.
IF Bounty Hunters are so great, how is it that Han Solo was able to evade and sometimes kill the Bounty Hunters on his head?
Well, that would be because Han Solo was very crafty. He also studied the pistol and the pistol only, so he was even more competant than poor Greedo....he could even take on several Imperial Stormtroopers single handedly! Not that he liked doing so.
Wait, so you're telling me that Han Solo, who knew nothing more than Pistols and Smuggling could besta Bounty Hunter?
Yes, that's true. Even Boba Fett was hard pressed in a fight with him, and only captured him because Darth Vader gave Han over to him. You see, it really took a Dark Lord of the Sith to capture the Smuggler/Pistoleer. Boba Fett could follow him, but was really no match due to his diversity compared to his preys' specializations.
Hipnautik wrote:
If you want to own in combat now, be a BH and/or commando(recently) which by the way is the second highest skill point.
But if you want to be "ok" with particular weapon and do other things be a rifleman/pistoleer, etc.
Hip... You andPecos are saying the same thing, only you seem tothink its great and we riflemen think it sucks.
You are saying if you want to fight EVERYONE SHOULD BE A BH OR COMMANDO. Read your own quote above! What the hell kind of attitude is that. Why would pistoleer and rifleman even be professions in this game if that were the way it was intended. Pecos had the right question: Why would anyone want to even be a rifleman if this were the way it was intended. The fact is, it IS this way, and we're trying to get it changed. This game would be much more interesting if all combat professions could compete on a level playing field. Wow! Then the game might require Strategy! What a concept!
It certainly sounds to me (whether intentional or not) thay you are saying: "We are uber. That's the way it is. There is no place for you pitiful profession." Now read that quote above and tell me why I'm not getting your point?
Oh why did I get dragged back in. First I'm not a BH....
My point is if you want to be the "best" at combat(pvp) be aBH or commando, no just to fight, but be the best.
Why be a riflemen or pistoleer? To save skill points..... plain and simple, its a shortcut to use these weapons, you can get to novice riflemen going up ONE skill tree in Marksmen, BH takes EIGHT skill trees to novice BH. It allows you to have lots of skill points left over, for anything you want, it allows flexibility.
There should not bea level playing field, BH's have devoted huge skill points for the RIGHT to be BH's. As a novice riflemen you have devoted an 1/8 of what they have and you expect to be on a level playing field? No way, your wrong there.
And I'm not uber, I'm not a BH or commando. So that is pointless to try and say I'm a BH defending his terf, I don't care either way.