Rifleman Archive

Well Full melee combo or not, If i have a full Ranged Combo I should be able to do the same job, in the same ammount of time.

But i just don't see how it's possible. I have heard other M Rifleman Combos here claimoing that they can Solo Necro & his buds in next to no time & take buggerall damage. They quite often give exact instructions, but when i Follow those to the letter, i only seem to get about 2 % damage done befor i am dead.

Frankly i think any Rifleman Combo that dose'nt include med or Jedi healing, who claims they can kill Necro & his Posse ina few minuits, is basically talking through his arse.

I challenge anyone to prove me wrong...!!! I'm on Farstar & will Give any M Rifleman/ MBH / Marksman (or similar ranged Tripple Master Combo - that must include M Rifleman),1Million creds if he can do the Necro in the same time as his Melee counterpart, Solo & with little to no damage taken (just like the melee guy).

You want to prove it can be done & earn 1 mill, give Borba a hollar & show me your stuff...!!!

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Ackehece wrote:

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Va-Mei wrote:

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Ackehece wrote:

An idea - what if we made the T-21 have a 15% critical chance pre critical slice (so you can crank it to 30%). It would make it a weapon that is worthy of being master cert'd without breaking the damage caps. I

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If that doesn't fly, how about the mode selector that was discussed in the pre-CU documents? Make the T-21 selectable between energy & kinetic without changing the other stats.

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or more likely a switch to change between

Energy/Elemental

make the damage 100% elemental (elemental type selectable at crafting so all are not the same)

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I think this is an awesome idea. I see this being able to go 2 directions. One direction is a Crafting-time designation of what type of damage a T-21 does, so we would all need to buy several Rifles for each situation.

The other direction (the one I like the best) is a Master Rifleman switchable designation, based on components purchased by a Weaponsmith. These might be craftable by low-end Weaponsmiths, so they can make some money from us too.

Actually I can see both ideas being useful together. The WS makes a T-21 with a default damage Type and percentage of elemental, and that can be anything. Then there would be pups that can be bought that can toggle the T-21 from Kinentic/Energy, and also focus damage to a specific Elemental type. So we can change out Rifle to fire differntly, but it can wear off and we can change it to something else.

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Ackehece wrote:

All I can say is that wimpy TK you see beating on the target is probably a triple melee master with the melee equivalent of a Rifleman in the mix (swordsmen is the melee damage dealer). He/She should be able to do as much damage as we do but also be able to take more damage and live longer due to her/his template. Otoh - vs ranged combatents that same target would be seriously inconvienced (and probably killed) by a good range template.

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ok.. this makes me sick.Where on earth are you getting this from, what server do you play on with armor or melee players so pitiful that this is true? PvP is dominated by melee, without armor break there's no way you can do *close* to enough damage to kill a melee defense stack. You're right, Sword is the equilvalent of rifle in theory, but in reality they have better damage due to armor break, and better minimum damage stats on thier weapons (the determining stat for damage on most PvP targets) So they beat us in damage, and when they grab TK they beat us in range. We don't have a ranged answer to TK, not even close.one box gives them +500 defense, if we take a bunch of BH, we get +250. Their base defense without the buffs are better as well.

So they've got us beat in offense and defense, all that's left is healing, where we are pretty much even. If you've got BH in your template they've got a skill point advantage, as you'll need to take scout, but without it, it cost the same. Regardless though, they'll have no problem picking up doc 4/0/0/4 which will give them the healing nessisary to ignore any two ranged components in PvP, and the speed buff to up thier DPS enough to kill them, unless they're able to run away.

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AxilX wrote:

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Ackehece wrote:

All I can say is that wimpy TK you see beating on the target is probably a triple melee master with the melee equivalent of a Rifleman in the mix (swordsmen is the melee damage dealer). He/She should be able to do as much damage as we do but also be able to take more damage and live longer due to her/his template. Otoh - vs ranged combatents that same target would be seriously inconvienced (and probably killed) by a good range template.

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ok.. this makes me sick.Where on earth are you getting this from, what server do you play on with armor or melee players so pitiful that this is true? PvP is dominated by melee, without armor break there's no way you can do *close* to enough damage to kill a melee defense stack. You're right, Sword is the equilvalent of rifle in theory, but in reality they have better damage due to armor break, and better minimum damage stats on thier weapons (the determining stat for damage on most PvP targets) So they beat us in damage, and when they grab TK they beat us in range. We don't have a ranged answer to TK, not even close.one box gives them +500 defense, if we take a bunch of BH, we get +250. Their base defense without the buffs are better as well.

So they've got us beat in offense and defense, all that's left is healing, where we are pretty much even. If you've got BH in your template they've got a skill point advantage, as you'll need to take scout, but without it, it cost the same. Regardless though, they'll have no problem picking up doc 4/0/0/4 which will give them the healing nessisary to ignore any two ranged components in PvP, and the speed buff to up thier DPS enough to kill them, unless they're able to run away.

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Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-01-2005 11:15 PM

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Ackehece wrote:

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AxilX wrote:

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Ackehece wrote:

All I can say is that wimpy TK you see beating on the target is probably a triple melee master with the melee equivalent of a Rifleman in the mix (swordsmen is the melee damage dealer). He/She should be able to do as much damage as we do but also be able to take more damage and live longer due to her/his template. Otoh - vs ranged combatents that same target would be seriously inconvienced (and probably killed) by a good range template.

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ok.. this makes me sick.Where on earth are you getting this from, what server do you play on with armor or melee players so pitiful that this is true? PvP is dominated by melee, without armor break there's no way you can do *close* to enough damage to kill a melee defense stack. You're right, Sword is the equilvalent of rifle in theory, but in reality they have better damage due to armor break, and better minimum damage stats on thier weapons (the determining stat for damage on most PvP targets) So they beat us in damage, and when they grab TK they beat us in range. We don't have a ranged answer to TK, not even close.one box gives them +500 defense, if we take a bunch of BH, we get +250. Their base defense without the buffs are better as well.

So they've got us beat in offense and defense, all that's left is healing, where we are pretty much even. If you've got BH in your template they've got a skill point advantage, as you'll need to take scout, but without it, it cost the same. Regardless though, they'll have no problem picking up doc 4/0/0/4 which will give them the healing nessisary to ignore any two ranged components in PvP, and the speed buff to up thier DPS enough to kill them, unless they're able to run away.

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Quite honestly if you can't beat a Melee Dstacker witha normal 100% ranged template your pvp skills are a bit lacking. With roots, delays, mezzs, knockdownsand snares available to a rangedfightersa melee fighter should never reach you unless they start in range or your inside a building. (Btw: I would say Eclipse is not lacking in PvP skill... only server with more would probably be Bria)

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-01-2005 11:15 PM

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Ackehece wrote:

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AxilX wrote:

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Ackehece wrote:

All I can say is that wimpy TK you see beating on the target is probably a triple melee master with the melee equivalent of a Rifleman in the mix (swordsmen is the melee damage dealer). He/She should be able to do as much damage as we do but also be able to take more damage and live longer due to her/his template. Otoh - vs ranged combatents that same target would be seriously inconvienced (and probably killed) by a good range template.

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ok.. this makes me sick.Where on earth are you getting this from, what server do you play on with armor or melee players so pitiful that this is true? PvP is dominated by melee, without armor break there's no way you can do *close* to enough damage to kill a melee defense stack. You're right, Sword is the equilvalent of rifle in theory, but in reality they have better damage due to armor break, and better minimum damage stats on thier weapons (the determining stat for damage on most PvP targets) So they beat us in damage, and when they grab TK they beat us in range. We don't have a ranged answer to TK, not even close.one box gives them +500 defense, if we take a bunch of BH, we get +250. Their base defense without the buffs are better as well.

So they've got us beat in offense and defense, all that's left is healing, where we are pretty much even. If you've got BH in your template they've got a skill point advantage, as you'll need to take scout, but without it, it cost the same. Regardless though, they'll have no problem picking up doc 4/0/0/4 which will give them the healing nessisary to ignore any two ranged components in PvP, and the speed buff to up thier DPS enough to kill them, unless they're able to run away.

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Quite honestly if you can't beat a Melee Dstacker witha normal 100% ranged template your pvp skills are a bit lacking. With roots, delays, mezzs, knockdownsand snares available to a rangedfightersa melee fighter should never reach you unless they start in range or your inside a building. (Btw: I would say Eclipse is not lacking in PvP skill... only server with more would probably be Bria)

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-01-2005 11:15 PM

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it's easy to say, but back up your statement, i gave clear reasons why melee has an advantage over range, all you did was insult me as a PvP'er, and list some states.

First, let's assume you're right and i can keep my opponent from reaching me, so what? I can't damage him. even cycling the most powerful ranged damage attacks, i'm looking at 400-500 damage per shot against decent armor. he can easily heal this before incapping, and with spiced tea, his mind will regenerate faster than the drain on it. This is assuming i don't miss, and believe me agianst a defense stacker sporting nearly 1000 ranged defense with CoB, i will miss. This is also assuming i don't run out of action which means i'm using a SAC powerup, action food and spice, and don't have a speed buff. A speed buff improves you damage over time slightly, but you must monitor your action carefully, either way you won't outdamage his heals.

Secondly, while it's true you can kite the less intelligent melee, a good stacker *will* catch you. mezzes only last so long, and snares barely make up for thier innate speed advantage and timely use of parawan, and thier natural burstrun will make it impossible to stay out of range forever, and as soon as they close they have just as many tools as you do to make sure you don't reopen the gap. Keep in mind as well, that all this time you're spending trying to keep the stacker at range is time and action you're not spending dealing damage. Of course as i said, your damage doesn't really matter anyway.

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-02-2005 07:12 AM

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Ackehece wrote:

Maybe it is because i don't duel I pvp that I don't see this. When you are in large groups that advantage you see is very virtual (most of the time we take out targets in about 3-5 secs in full group strength 8 secs with out full group) as we concentrate fire and use melee tankers toengage melee tankers while we lay snares and roots... then weblow them to bits at range. Even with very good heals you can kill them if you get enough damage on target quickly enough. Of course I do see your point in a duel but really rifleman is not designed as a dueling profession (this has been said before). Duel != PvP

My usual group when we pvp + 5 random other professions andthe other 3 to 10 groups we also show up with have similar builds

otoh

SL + volley fire Rifleman + diving shot Pistoleer + Root

SL+ Steady aim Rifleman + Charge up the Snipershot Pistoleer + Underhandshot

SL + Charge Shot Rifleman +Snipershot Pistoleer + Disarming Shot

SL + Advanced legshot Rifleman + Kipup shotPistoleer + Critical Shot

usually equals 1 target dead in about 8 secs (with other group members we usually can't get past stage three)

one other thing: make sure to have armor sliced to protect vs armor break. It is wonderful to behold when they miss their break 2 or 3 times in a row...

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-02-2005 07:12 AM

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alright, first off, if you don't believe dueling is PvP you obviously don't know what PvP stands for, it's an acronym for Player versus Player. You may prefer factional PvP over duels, but that's you, as a corospondant you ought to be aquainted with all aspects and playstyles within your profession.

That said, i understand not all combat professoions are meant to be viable in a one on one situation, squadleaders for example are purely support, the same can be said for other professions. I do not believe however that can be said for riflemen. We're supposed to be nukers, we're supposed to deal damage better than anyone in the game, barring perhaps jedi. My particular template utilizes master BH as well, which is supposed to be the profession in one on one combat. Yet when i couple what is supposedly the best dueling profession with what is supposedly the most damaging profession.. i find i cannot deal any damage at all in a one on one situation, against any melee professions, and most ranged professions as well.

Let's look at riflemen in group PVP though, since apparently that's the only aspect of PvP our corrospondant is qualified to discuss. First off, the attack combonation you gave is hardly viable, there are three reasons for this.

1.) you're giving up damage, unless you do not have another ranged professions supporting rifle, you've got far better damage combonations than snipershot. Snipershot has a huge warmup, it does about 1.5 timesthe damage of headshot, but takes more than 1.5 times as long to execute. Single shot damage matters little if you cannot kill your target in one shot. Snipershot does not even provide superior instant damage, so currently it's worthless in largescale PvP, unless you're in a cover/ambush situation in which case it can be used as a firstshot.

2.) You're advocating that a rifleman go prone in PvP? As i've proven in my above posts, riflemen are at a vast defensive disadvantage as compared to melee, we can't shrug off large amounts of damage like a stacker, we can't avoid incap like a jedi. Thus after support charecters like delay/root spammers have been brought down, we're going to be the called target. Going prone allows everyone to get on you quick, and gives melee an accuracy bonus.

3.) you're extremely slow already, going prone negates your ability to keep up with a moving battle, if your groupmates are smart, they're going to be taking out the opponents crowd control abilities first, which means pistoleers and smugglers. These charecters are going to be moving away from the battle, trying to delay death as long as possible, while they're damage dealers clean up the silly riflemen who followed your advice and went prone. This means not only are easy to kill, you're unlikely to keep your target in range long enough to deal significant damage.

Now, assuming the rifleman knows what he's doing and stays on his feet, he's still at massive disadvantage in group PvP. unless the targets armor is broken, he's not in much danger, so until a jedi or melee applies the break, you damage abilities are nonexsistant. You only have one decent utility shot, which is a decent delay, so while you're waiting for this to happen, you're pretty much useless.

On top of this once the armor is broken, you'll finally be able to do comparable damage to the Swordsman (who's using a fencer weapon, for the SAC) *if* you've got a damage powerup on your weapon. However you're not doing it for long because your action costs are much higher. If you go with a SAC powerup (the better choice) you will be able to do sustained damage, but will do less damage than the swordsman whom you had to relay on to make you even semi-useful in the firstplace.

Message Edited by AxilX on 08-07-2005 11:31 AM

AxilX no matter what you do there is always another template that can beat it. You are right we are not gods (nor did I ever say we were - just that we canwin a lot of the time). I can think of three templates that my group can't beat instantly without any thought involved. If you are having to much trouble with other templates then maybe you should think how to beat those other templates. AI Jedi are a major problem for my group but they are beatable (make em use force and drain em - then kill em. General PvP though you will have a mix of targets and allies and in that mix will be some players who are able to beat other builds that I can not.

Rifleman are not designed as single combatant pvprs. No where in the description of the profession does it say we are. The devs designed BHs as the ranged single combatant - says so right in their description. We are designed as nukers. A standoff high damage profession. We do high damage but not high dps. (highest dps for rifleman is pretty much ranged/aimed shot combo.) Dueling is a special case of PvP - it is not general PvP. If you want to be a dueler - take the profession with duelist stance.

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-07-2005 06:09 PM

Did you even read my post? You seem to have gotten pieces here and there, but apparently you missed the part where i mentioned i AM a master BH, i do have duelist stance, but still have no utility as a duelist. Furthermore, that was only the topic of the very first paragraph of my post. I went on to show that not only do riflemen have no place in a 1 on 1 fight with any set-up whatsoever (Rifle/CM may be the best, but all you can hope to do is draw, and lose with every other single combonation) but we have extremely limited utility in groups as well.

You did not respond to any of my points, i don't exspect to be a 'god' i exspect to be viable. Show me how in any PvP situation where i have any meaningful advantage over a melee tank. I think i named one, perhaps two scenerios where a skilled rifleman is capable of making a meaningful difference, but they rarely occur, and no where near justify using a rifleman in your group when that slot could used for a jedi or melee tank.

In your first post you told me if i was a capable rifleman i ought to be able to take down a melee stacker one on one. I refuted this, and you came back telling me we were not duelist afterall, but were viable in groups. Now after i've detailed why this is equally untrue, you respond with glittering generalities, rather than attacking any of my arguments, or attempting to disprove a single thing i've said.

I agree with 90% of your last post. No, no one profession should be able to beat all the others. No, not all professions need to be effective in one on one PvP. But what is it we actually do well?? We do a lot of damage with one snipershot... so what? It's not even instant damage. The warmup timer is about the same as my cooldown timer, i could have easily dealt more damage with other shots by the time snipershot goes off, than with snipershot itself. So not only are we unable to keep up with DPS longterm, we're unable to deal a large amount of damage over any given timeframe.

We have no purpose, we offer nothing to a PvP group that another template could not preform better. We are unable to exploit the weaknesses of any decent dueling template, we have all the weaknesses we're supposed to have. We're slow. It takes a long time to set up our "high damage" shots. We have poor defenses. We are easily killed when our range is breached. But we have none of the strengths, at least not in anywhere near the degree other professions have them.

Touching on your PvP team again... My template is not built around defense in tanking. in fact that may be the weakest point of the template (or damage against an opponent without armor break applied take your pick) The fact your group would not be able to kill me of all people was meant to illustrate the overall uselessness of the setup. If you can't kill me, you can't do anything against a real tank, be it a swordsman stack, or a defender. You might be marginally effective at killing cloaker jedi that have taken a pass on a large amount of defender. However, a pair of sword/tk/doc stacks could deal with that same jedi just as effectively unless both KD's miss.

• "vs ranged combatents that same target would be seriously inconvienced (and probably killed) by a good range template."


• "Quite honestly if you can't beat a Melee Dstacker witha normal 100% ranged template your pvp skills are a bit lacking."


• "Maybe it is because i don't duel I pvp that I don't see this." (referring to mine and other posters rebuttel to the above)


• "Rifleman are not designed as single combatant pvprs"

Am i the only one who sees the complete 180 here? First only a poor PvP'er would lose with his rifle against a melee stack. Then our rifle corrospondant is unable to comment on rifle duelist, as he doesn't partake in this kind of activity (it's apparently not 'real' PvP). Now it seems we're not supposed to have a chance against melee in duels and this is working as intended.

Will the next post detail why we're not supposed to operate effectively in group PvP either?...

Message Edited by AxilX on 08-08-2005 05:13 AM

Message Edited by Ackehece on 08-08-2005 08:48 AM

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Ackehece wrote:

responses in random order:

I never said we were uber 1 on 1. Iguess I didsay you can beat most melee stackers 100% of the time. I probably should have said 80% of the time. Sorry about that.

You are a BH you do have duelist stance good for you. It does help your defence immensely. With a bit of combat medic + rifleman and BH you must own 90% of the jedi you come across. At least that is my experience in this area. Melee tankers are even easier (if they are a triple master) double master + medic is much harder (longer to kill).

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This is probably an old question/issue, but I thought the Devs stated that there woold never be Tripple Mastering, that one could only Double Master. Why isn't Melle Tripple Mastery a MAJOR issue in terms of game balance.Wouldn't someof the argument above be mitigated if Melle Players had to go by the same rules as the rest of us? That doesn't do anything about Jedi, but how can Rifleman or any Ranged Profession be balanced against someone that can master 3 professions and still have 4 skill points left over?

I hate to be someone crying for a nerf, but Tripple mastery is Broken, and if that doesn't get fixed it places too much power in Melle and is unballancing.

I also hate to repeat myself from earlier comments, but perhaps Rifleman need to be able to fire and maneuver while Covered. While Coverd, we have Powerful shots, and can't be seen, and therefore canot be attacked.Like the previous writed stated "We're slow. It takes a long time to set up our "high damage" shots. We have poor defenses. We are easily killed when our range is breached." Personally, I am ok with the weaknesses if we are effectively fire from our range. The problem is keeping someone at that range. Improving Cover so that IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ABILITY if the Rifleman Tree would take care of the the problems of Aggro, since it could be made possible to remin Covered while Soloing, but it might require a lot more patience. Being able to cover and crawl at a faster rate of speed, even if for a short period of time, might make Rifleman more viable in Dueling - what sense is there to Cover in a Duel if the human being saw where your Dot was when it disappeared, and knows you are crawling.

I will agree that having the Advanced Laser Rifle with almost identical specs as the T-21 is stupidity in its highest...any Master Weapon should be one the best of its class.