Rifleman Archive
Thread: Are we Uber?
FoeHammerOne wrote:
My personal experience in PvP with rifflemen has shown me that:
1. Rifflemen can do insaine amounts of damage to mind, which can only be healed one to two times until you are full from chef foods. I once fought a riffleman while wearing 50% energy/acid composite helmet and I had 1400 mind 1200 focus/willpower, and I was incap-db in less than 10 seconds.
2. I have also faught rifflemen at less than 20 meters and they hit me every single time they fired, and they were moving at the same damn time. You are a riffleman, a sniper, long range combat is your speciality. You cannot hit your target 100% of the time WHILE moving AND at close range. This needs to be changed.
Well first you should have had better armor, but that is beside the point
As for our accuracy up close yes this needs to be fixed, BUT before this happens we need to take a look at where most PVP occurs and that is usually at or around 30 meters due to LOS in cities and around bases.
hoenixSo many riflemen is denial *shakes head*.
There reason melee's can't hit you is that the coding in place to give riflemen penalties to their melee d against melee fighters is broken. It actually gives them a bonus. This will be fixed next patch and is stated in the dev notes as a bug that needed to be fixed.
Riflemen accuracy is too high and the penalties designed to counter close range is imballanced and does not offset the massive accuracy riflemen get at master. This needs to be adjusted as well. I currently have 141 ranged defense and riflemen hit me within 25m nearly evertime while we are both running. BROKEN...no rebuttle.
Riflemen shoot off their specials too fast. DPS is not supposed to be so much higher than other ranged classes when all are using their highest damage specials. A higher damage gun with high damage multipliers is supposed to reflect in a larger hit but at a slower rate. This is simply ballance. High damage, single hits allowed to have a greater dps should have a greater toll on the user but the current system allows nearly infinate spamming of specials due to insainly high buffs. The whole system is screwed and this is why we are getting combat ballances over the next two patches. Riflemen, along with many other classes, will be changed. The devs have already listed many areas where they know things need to be changed and the problems listed here for riflemen are directly being addressed for many classes.
What does this mean... everyone here defending the rifleman profession and convincing themselves that they are not overpowered are going to have to face reality very soon. I am sure that these same people will be the first to drop the profession because it will be beyond them to understand what a rifleman's role should be. As it stands it is the master at long range, the master of middle range and the master of short range against a non-healable stat bar.
Oh,,,am I a class tired of being beaten by riflemen? Opps nope...been a rifleman TWICE! And I like it...but even I understand the changes that need to come.
Ballance Riflemen......nerf combat medic.
Metherian wrote:
What do you mena by no range modifiers? We have -80 on the T21 at 0. IF you are refering to limited
Sure, you're supposed to have a -80 modifier, but in truth it doesn't effect you that way at all. The fact is that riflemen appear to have no range modifiers, despite what you weapon stats say. I have yet to see a rifleman consistenly miss a target that is6m away.
YEs our accuracy at master is insane, and the devs overcompensated when they had to make us more accurate than pistolleers
I am just saying prior to making master I managed to polish of a heavily dmged TKA. I walked up to DB him suddenly I am on my back and dizzied. Oh BTW until Publish 7 and even after warcry is almost as good.
Well, you were prior to making master--at master you can finish anyone in a matter of seconds, no problem. I suspect that some kiting/running was involved--or, he failed to use KD on you until after you killed him. You probably got the drop on him, and shot him in the back, right? If so, then his lunge / KD timers didnt' have to cycle yet.
I told you I had the drop on him and he was heavily dmged.
You do realize to hit your mind we take a 40% reduction in our dmg potential(not even counting AOE)? IF i see someone with a mind buff then guess what i am going after your other bars since ican dmg them much much better. Also the avg PVP dmg for HS3 is around 300, the mind costs for that move i have seen around 130. SO for every 300 dmg i hit you with I would do a little under 50% of that to myself. Mind seems to be the heaviest ham cost for armor which hurts us even more.
And yet every other rifleman in the game spams Headshot. You're not ever going to convince me that rifleman's HAM costs justify the fact that they can do thousands of points of damage to an unhealable damage bar.
Also, I wear an advanced comp helmet, my mind is ALWAYS buffed, and IALWAYS have vasarian brandy, muon, and power boost.By your account, this would mean that riflemen would leave me alone. This is the farthest thing from the truth, however. The ONLY special riflemen EVER use on me is Headshot.
That's a fact, not a gripe.
Yeah all of us with a brain do spam specialsl ike mad, but ONLY as long as our food/buffs/drugs hold out. Once those drop or we clone we are completely out of the fight until our stomach empties. The same can not be said for many professions. The exception being doc buffs, but how long do those take?3 min tops? a drop in the bucket compared to waiting 30-40 mins for our stomachs to empty.
Why in the hell are you allowing yourself to be kited by a rifleman? That sounds to me like you are asking to die. If your KD timer has not run outthen use warcry2 to paralyze me for 20 sec. Even after the patch this will still work you just cant attack me or I will be bale to fight back.
Allowing? Melee fighters don't have much of a choice against riflemen. Yes, if lunge / KD timers are still cycling, Warcry is an option. Unfortunately, Warcry has a failry large HAM cost, like every other melee special, and is not guaranteed to work. It is the 'backup' special, if KD/Dizy fail (which, invariably, they often do).
The main problem, though, is that melee fighters don't have a STICK command. (Because SOE is brainless.) What this means is that we have to put in extra effort in trying to follow you, as the /follow command doesn't keep us within fighting range. In addition to this, we have to make sure our specials 'stick', we have to make sure the we use burst run, heal, usechef food and/or spice. If we don't do all of this at the same time against a rifleman,we go down in 5 seconds, rather than 10. The combat queue simply does not move fast enough for a melee fighter to be viable in combat against a rifleman.
By contrast, ranged fighters (like riflemen) just have tostand up and run away. The game auto-follow-targets for them. And because they can't even be hit by a melee fighter (even at 6m away) all they have to worry about is maintaining their mind bar.
All of this takes very little skill to do by comparison.
Well i agree that any ranged weapon should suffer a slow down effect while in combat. Making kiting a little harder to do. However perhaps you should use LOS to get closer to your opponent. As oppose to just charging and hoping you can land a lunge/KD/dizzy.
OK fine it takes little skill to use a rangted weapon, but you still decided to pick up a melee profession and there by be at a obvious disadvantage.
This coming from a TKA lololololololololololol. The one of the classes that scares me and is high priority on my killl list. The only thing higher is another rifleman. Going from there CM's, BH's, and any other melee class.
I would love to be completely self sufficient too
The 'TKA is overpowered' argument is so overblown, it's not even funny. Sure, we can 'own' in close combat --- but ONLY if we get a chance to hit you. And even then--with the lunge/KD timers--it's nowhere near the 'done thing' that fighting a rifleman is, because TKA's do AR 1 KINETIC damage to the HEALTH bar.
Let me say that again:
TKA's only do AR 1kinetic damage to he freakin' HEALTH bar.
Everyone and their brother has buffs and/or stims that simply wipe away any damage that we may have done.
The ONLY way a TK can defeat a rangedopponent is to knock them down and dizzy them. Against every other ranged profession(excluding CM's and BH's) TK's may or may not win-- alot depends on the mods involved, the range, lag, armor being used, and the specials that are in play.
Against rifleman, however, TK's ONLY have the upper hand if we can KD AND dizzy you in one hit. Failing that, we're dead. Given the fact that most riflemen never get into melee range (if they can help it), a TK's chances of winning are rather low, all things considered.
The problem, you see, is that a rifleman can drop any other player in a matter of seconds, with absolutely no hope of that player everrecovering with stims, etc. The same cannot be said about TK's.
Also, with the chef buffs that are out there (thahkitillo, ithorian mist, ...) TK"s are finding it a lot tougher to knock ANYONE down. I can also get into the fact that TK's only have one attack that is worth anything (the others being useless), and that their defense mods and/or Center of Being are STILL broken ... but that's another story.
A story all the fanboy riflemen here don't want to hear about, I'm sure.
Well it is well known that buffs and Overpowered stim B's(only rewuire novice medic) are basically ruining pvp. WIth novice medic you can heal 400+ dmg per shot. Now if stims were fixed so the doctor's helaign ability counted for something other than buffs/ curing disease/poison. This would cut back alot and make the health/action pool worth attacking.
Well every professions can do. Anything wrong with that?
What is wrong is that there is no defense against specials that damage ONLY the unhealable mind bar for thousands of points of damage. What other classes (apart from Combat Medic and Bounty Hunter) can do this at range?
Read that bit and realised i didn't need to read any further. Talking complete BS.
You want to know who are "uber"? TKA with stacked defences. While i was out looking for krayts for my group i came across another group fighting a Canyon krayt(not a juv). They had one person tanking it, ONE person, a TKA, didn't get his other professions but you try doing that as a rifleman with a rifle in your hands. NO profession should be able to go toe-to-toe with a krayt, it's obscene and makes a mockery of the entire combat system.
Plain old vanilla rifleman on their own with no other combat professions aren't any better than any other, single combat profession. Except maybe pikemen, i feel their pain 
The mind pool is no longer the problem it once was, with all the new chef foods/drinks. In fact, you can now get the mind pool and it's secondary stats far higher than health and action. But that would require a new style of thinking, to go with the new foods/drinks, something that doesn't yet seemed to have happened, and hence we still get whines about how "vunerable" the mind pool is.
Metherian wrote:
You do realize to hit your mind we take a 40% reduction in our dmg potential(not even counting AOE)? IF i see someone with a mind buff then guess what i am going after your other bars since ican dmg them much much better. Also the avg PVP dmg for HS3 is around 300, the mind costs for that move i have seen around 130. SO for every 300 dmg i hit you with I would do a little under 50% of that to myself. Mind seems to be the heaviest ham cost for armor which hurts us even more.
And yet every other rifleman in the game spams Headshot. You're not ever going to convince me that rifleman's HAM costs justify the fact that they can do thousands of points of damage to an unhealable damage bar.
Why in the hell are you allowing yourself to be kited by a rifleman? That sounds to me like you are asking to die. If your KD timer has not run outthen use warcry2 to paralyze me for 20 sec. Even after the patch this will still work you just cant attack me or I will be bale to fight back.
Allowing? Melee fighters don't have much of a choice against riflemen. Yes, if lunge / KD timers are still cycling, Warcry is an option. Unfortunately, Warcry has a failry large HAM cost, like every other melee special, and is not guaranteed to work. It is the 'backup' special, if KD/Dizy fail (which, invariably, they often do).
///QUOTE/// "Read that bit and realised i didn't need to read any further. Talking complete BS." ///QUOTE///
Apparently, you believe that rifleman should be immune to melee attacks, be able to do thousands of points of damage to the unhealable mind bar, be able to DB at 60m, be able to spam special without missing at 6m ... basically, be able to kill any PvP enemy in ten seconds flat.
ROFL ... and I'm talking BS. Sure, kid. 
///QUOTE/// You want to know who are "uber"? TKA with stacked defences. While i was out looking for krayts for my group i came across another group fighting a Canyon krayt(not a juv). They had one person tanking it, ONE person, a TKA, didn't get his other professions but you try doing that as a rifleman with a rifle in your hands. NO profession should be able to go toe-to-toe with a krayt, it's obscene and makes a mockery of the entire combat system." ///QUOTE///
*sigh* Here we go again ... *sigh*
You were probably looking at a Pistoleer/Fencer who just happened to have the meditation line in TKA. The fact is that TK's don't really have anything that good that 'stacks'--> our dodge mods suck, our knockdown mods suck, etc.
Please, do your homework before responding.
Eaca I just wanted to say that at the moment yes we ARE somewhat overpowered compared to carbineer and pistolleer, BUT please dont balance us to be on the lvl with broken proffessions. That would just lead to more nerfs and continue the cycle that we have been on since launch.
What needs to happen is that we need to have all of the classes fixed and then start talking about balance.
MarcoRenaldi wrote:
Eaca I just wanted to say that at the moment yes we ARE somewhat overpowered compared to carbineer and pistolleer, BUT please dont balance us to be on the lvl with broken proffessions. That would just lead to more nerfs and continue the cycle that we have been on since launch.
What needs to happen is that we need to have all of the classes fixed and then start talking about balance.
To me it sounds like you're compairing a buffed rifleman to an unbuffed TK. I know with my stats migrated the way they are, and no armor on, I can drain both health and action in like 10 seconds. Back before pub 6 I could use 2 ryshcate and one BoH and self buff to the point I could spam specials without cost even with low enc armor on. With the new foods this is not an option, to do that now I have to use doc buffs and brandy together, so the only thing I can mitigate myself is mind costs. Thats not even an option if I want to wear high enc PvP armor, then I gotta throw either canape or entertainer buffs on top of all this. So I'm still not seeing how a fully buffed TKA vs a fully buffed rifleman is having problems "managing" his HAM costs. I understand that even fully armored with stun armor a rifleman is going to make quick work of your mind. This isn't so much a problem with us as it is a problem with how armor works. If armor could say be crafted to have differing vulnerabilities, say the crafter could pick 5 effective resists and 3 special resists and always left one vulnerability but the eff resists, special resists, and vulnerability could be different from set to set, this issue would be much different.
Honestly I think the solution to the dilema we're all having is having SOE hire one or two "power gamers" and let them teach the devs about thier game. How they did not see the whole uber HA buff, uber everything else but stun resist armor NOT making a class that can do stun damage to the mind pool overpowering is truely beyond me.
Metherian wrote:
" I don't have too much disagreement with most of what you said, and, I, much unlike most of my compatriots, do think that we are overpowered. I just want you to make up your mind here. Which is it? HAM costs are insignificant because you can get buffs, or they are signifigant cause you don't always have buffs. In the same post you say we can't say our high HAM costs are an excuse for our power, yet you blame your high HAM costs for not being able to counter it. Which is it. "
My response was meant to illustrate at least two things:
1) That TKA's have MIND costs to contend with. The previous post indicated that all we had were health and action costs, and could heal ourselves without a problem.
YOur mind costs area drop in the bucket compared to ours. We cant powerboost and increase our base stats. UNbuffed and unarmored I get off maybe 8 shots and then I am brain dead and can only auto-attack. I severely doubt your mind costsare that bad.
2)TKA's have to use many different special moves just to have a chance at success in PvP, especially against a rifleman. We're talking, lunge, KD, Warcry, Intimidation ... because KD and lunge rarely 'stick' these days, we have to use them repeatedly, often with no result. We have to equip/unequp VK's to improve our range. We have to use power from all threehealth, action, and mind pools with very little in return--just a chance that you might be knocked down.
I would love for rifleman to have effective combos, but for some reason the devs came us several almost identical attacks that do a posture change up move(why in the hell anyone would want to make their target stand is beyond me. AS far as KD's sticking, I can almost assure you that if you try and KD a rifleman you will succeed unless he is a stacker or has devoted soem of his stomach to the KD food(rare).
Mostly, though, my point about the HAM costs is that, at close range, we have to use up our HAM in addition to having to take extraordinary amounts of damage. In the case of themind bar, this is just ridiculous. We have to use hundreds of mind just to use half of our specials, then use a few hundred mind to makea couple of them actually stick. Then, of course, unless the lunge / KD timer has cycled, we're screwing ourselves again anyway.
I am sorry what are you trying to say? This seems to apply for all professions, or are you saying that you should have no HAM costs?
TK's (and all melee, for that matter)have tosignificantly use/impactwhat little mindthey do have ... just to catch you, much lessincapyou .... at the same time, our mind bar is getting hit for thousands of points of damage.
Thousands....really? My avg HS3 is around 300 or so against a unbuffed/unarmored target. So lets see 3 sec to deal 1000 dmg, 6 sec for 200 and so on. Please stop exagerating as stun armor plus food/buffs can kill this number.
By contrast, a rifleman is able to spam specials, use mind buffs/spices, and easily monitor his mind/action usage BECAUSE HE CAN'T EVEN BE HIT. Also, the only effective attack TK's have in unarmed hit 3, which does nothing but kinetic health damage (which is easily healed.) TK's head strike does practically NOTHING to a fully-buffed/armored rifleman's mind stat. We don't do thousands of points of mind damage--only rifleman do.
Our too hit bug is being fixed. YOu too can use buffs/food please stop forgeting this. SS2 is a random pool shot which can usually be easily healed. So I guess you thihnk our Hs's go right through buffs/food and stun armor? There you go with the thousands of pints of mind damage line again, please restate that so that it reflects truth as in rifleman can do thousands of points of mind OVER time.
This is the rub then: Not only do riflemen hit the only unhealable damage bar (mind), but often their opponent also has to contribute to damaging their ownmind bar. The reverse, however, is not the same in the case of melee vs. rifleman even at close range (6m).
What are you trying to say? We should not be able to dmg your mind cause you spam specials out of it? Then why health and action too?
Rifleman 'own' at long range, they 'own' at medium range, and the 'own' at short range. And the HAM costs, due to the contributing factors of range, lag, inordinate defense mods, etc. simply work in their favor.
I have died more times than not when point blank with a melee person. I am sorry if you cant seem to beat them, but perhaps you should change your tactics? HAM costs work in our favor how in the hell is that, and how does that relate to range, lag, defense mods(once agian they are being fixed)?
As I said before, why would you want to use any other profession in PvP at this point?
I am actually debating going BH or fencer, but am very reluctant too because it took me 3 months to master rifle with the 2.5x melee/ mob warping.
im sorry but you cant throw out the riflemans greatest weakness, HAM costs, because we can buff. The devs never imagined that people will be able to waste to much money seemingly uselessly (what does pvp get you anyway? From a logical standpoint its a waste of time). You'd want the devs to nerf our accuracy and firing speed because our buffs cancel out our HAM costs? What about the people that don't use buffs? Then they'd really be **edit**ed over.
buffs throw everything out of wack. However, if a rifleman spent 10k credits to buff himself and kill you... i think its the rifleman getting screwed.