Rifleman Archive

Yes I'm a real life soldier and I'm telling you right now there are several of us on these boards. We don't need to aim a rifle to hit at 64 meters. The human form is so large while looking down the iron sights you basicaly just point the weapon in that direction. firing at targets that close is generally reflex shoting or you use aim points (M68's to those who know). At distances greater than this is when you aim.

So the point I'm making is why do we have a 3 second propsed cap. You can get the shot off so quickly when your reflex shooting that this seems absurd. I can see time delays if it were distance specific. Say we were targeting something at 200 meters you take the time to aim in between shots. IRL you would get wind, declination and figure in distance for the balistic side. these don't count except maybe with a Tusken Rifle because it is actually a projectile weapon.

I guess the Dev's have know clue about ranged weapons. Most MMORPG are mediviel in nature so they only know about melee. This is getting really old.



Hire a consultant for pete's sake.


Pistols are great. for close range. Yes you can hit things as far as 100m away with them, on a good day. but how long do you hink you have to aim one to get a steady shot with a 6 inch barrel at that range. Yes it is a long time.
Rifles are awesome for all ranges. Yes you need to take your time at 800m to place a good shot. i can see this taking more time than say at 20m. Can't you? 3 seconds for both is just wrong.

To my brothers in Arms, both in real life and in game. This is the twisting of the knife. you know the one SOE keeps jamning in our backs.


And for you who don't know what reflex shooting is;
When in the field on a patrol a soldier will move with his weapons butstock in the small pocket between the pectoral muscle and the shoulder. The weapon can be used in a tactical sling as well that places it across the chest and alows for easy one hand carrying. When you make contact the weapon is rapidly brought up to target (fractions of a second for most infantry, Not 3 seconds) Depending on the weapon rounds can be down range in .5 to one seconds. This isn't an M16 and M4 (the shorty M16 you see everone carrying now) specific drill. It can be done with most weapons, pistold included. There isn't much aiming involved you look at the target the weapon naturally points at what your looking at provided you body is "squared" top the target.

I know, i know this isn't real life it's game. It just seems to make more sense to me than to just make some arbitrary decision to make all rifles have a 3 second cap.

If you want to slow rifles down there are more logical ways. Increase our accuracy by using Aim and slow the shot down. This would also signifcantly increase our damge output. regular firing would be weapon and skill level specific. Figure distance into it. if we don't use aim our shots are faster but don't do as high a damage. At max range we need to aim longer. We shouldn't have a negative to hit at close range, we should have a bonus. With a rifle like any other ranged weapon it's the distance that makes it harder to hit things not the reverse. all weapons shoud be equally accureate at 5 meters. it's the distance that should seperate them.

I feel that the 3 second cap would be a tragedy for the rifleman. I know I can pull the trigger pretty fast, bet you a bunch of people can easily reach 5 rounds per seond in real life. Increase the chance to miss when firing that fast not decrease the rate you can fire.



I guess that's enough for now.


MB

Veidon Baine
Chilastra

I'll drink to that.

Brothers in arms

Same here.. I qualified 37/40, so... Im entitled to an opinion.

When I can nail stuff at 500m,

at 300M and fire every 2 seconds....

But the answer they will give is - This sint reality, its SWG

37/40 puts you at expert my brother. good for you

Yes I know that SOE will say this isn't reality but I think reality is a better guide for ranged combat than their skewed Everquest numbers.

I just ask Please Please Please go shoot some real weapons and get a clue.

And for the record i don't belive SOE when they say they don't hate us. i'd like to see some examples that prove this statement.


Veidon Baine
Chiastra

lol

I used to make Muzzle loaders with my father when i was kid. They still had better range than 64 meters

/sigh


oh well

Don't even get me started on how I can miss a turtle larger than a house 4 times in a row from any distance (mostly if it's moving, though it still shouldn't matter). Oh, and the turtle can outrun me too

-Drache

I somewhat agree with original post here.

IMHO the problem is they have it so all weapons can still fire anwhere within 64m but not more then that. I just posted on the post the the really pissed off guy and lots of ***edit*** in his post. The biggest difference from pistals and rifles is accuracy/range.

When I can still shoot my pistal from 60m away, even with some -50 modifier, but the rifle can't shoot me at more then 64m it's pretty unbalanced. Some options I have thought of are.....

1. completely restrict the range at which a pistal can shoot. So that at say 40 or 50m, depending on pistal, I get the little --- line meaning I cant fire. That leaves the rifles still able to shoot me up to 64m.

2. make the penalty modifiers for pistals at ranges farther then 30m just as severe, if not more, then the close range penalty modifiers for the rifles.

3. leave the range and modifiers as they for the pistals, but make the rifles able to shoot at ranges farther then 64m, depending on the rifle.

I think the first 2 are more plausable, just because I think the game and mobs/NPCis designed around the 64m range. It would likely be more difficult to adjust that. (Although us rangers already have things breaking our mask scent and agroing on us from 80m) I do agree the fact that the pistaleers should have the speed bonuses and be fastest.

What do you gun shooter, military types think about those ideas?

I would be ok wit hone and two if that's all they could do but that i miss at close range with the most accurate weapons in the world/game is stupid combined with the 2.5x melee penalty

Ugh, why do we get one of these every week?

'Rifleman' is just a name. If it makes you feel better, we're not actually using rifles, but Oversized Projectile Launchers (OPLs). OPLs have characteristics different from any real gun, and OPLmen behave differently from riflemen. And that's not really the 'Sniping' branch, it's the 'OPL accuracy' branch.

Balance issues always have to come first in a game. If you have a game-balance reason why OPLs have problems, that's one thing. But arguing OPLs don't reflect rifles is redundant and not relevant. They're OPLs, not rifles.

We are actually using Rifles. your OPLs metaphor is innacurate becaulse OPLs are in truth 155m howitzers and we as "rifleman" do no where near the damage of these weapons. I personally would love to have the the ability to deny the enemy entire kilometer size grid squares with my T21 but that's just not anywhere near realistic. And as for "getting posts like this each week". We get then, and should get them untill one of two things happen.

1.) The developers get off of their secluded little mountain retreat and explain in a realistic manner how they intend to deal with the fact they have created a world that has disregarded all the established values for realistic ranged combat in this world and the star wars realm

or

2.) Everyone who actually knows about ranged combat that plays this game gives up ranged and goes melee.


let's actually make it 3 while i'm in wish mode


3.) They actually make a realistic balanced ranged and melee combat system (the most far fetched i know)



Veidon Baine
Chilastra

The problem is that a 'real-life' situation is nothing close to balanced. As the saying goes, don't bring a knife to a gunfight. There isn't a balanced combat system in real life, which is the whole reason why modern armies don't typically train soldiers to use rapiers.

I stick with the OPL metaphor, because that's exactly what we are. Ignore the names of the boxes for balance purposes since they don't have any affect on the gameplay. The problem isn't necessarily with the system (although there ARE a number of game-balance issues) but with the connotations provided by 'rifle', 'pistol' and 'sniping'.

Your argument cannot be 'OPLs should be able to shoot further because rifles can in real life'. It needs to be 'OPLs should be able to shoot further because this is the only balanced way to counteract the accuracy of the SPL (small projectile launcher)'. One is an out-of-game (and irrelevant) argument, the other is an in-game, balance argument.

Noules000, It's apparent that this thread is dying quickly so i'll just say that you're right about the problem being in the tree names. They were poorly chosen for what they provided. They could be fixed, i don't hink they will be.

As far as Balance goes that is the problem that needs to be solved. On one side you have all of the realists that know that there is no way a rifle could ever n=be balanced with a rifle. They're whole different animals. To be truthful the Rifle owns the pistol in the real world. They could never be balanced. I know that they must be for this game. The difficulty i'm having is reconciling with SOE's form of balancing. the seem to go for a quick change as opposed to actually basing that off of reality.

They have taken all that is the rifle and bastardized it into some perverse gimped anti-hero.

The range issue. ok 64m is it fine adjust the others accordingly

Speed issue. I don't know why because i hold a rifle why I have a 4-10 second delay. Are the triggers that hard to pull. probably not. if it was avtually because i had to aim then it would logically reduce as the target got closer to me.

Accuracy issue. within 5 meters i can see where the rifle may have a problem being accurate only because shifting and lifting takes a bit of time. but anywhere from 5-64 meters we should have the reverse of what we do now. less accurate as we get farther away from our target. All weapons should behave this way. rifles should just have the least penalty.

2.5x melee damage. just shouldn't be weapon specific. go ahead keep it in, it's not bad in concept it just should be posture specific. being prone would hurt the most and would affect us the most because we most often go prone. We shouldn't be penalized because of our weapon. If you only have rifle certs your truly effed when fleeing a creature.

Accuaracy while running. we should be less accurate while running i agree the rifle is unweildly while moving this was a good call on the Dev's part. Our accuracy while are target is moving should not be penalized greatly. Ever hear of leading the target. Maybe place this in the marksman skills tree. Then again we are using energy weappons and laser travel at the speed of light not much leadding necessary there.



And lastly.
"you do bring a knife to a gunfight." no soldier worth his salt goes to the filed without a knife/bayonette. To many uses for them. it's the second most useful piece of equipment a soldier has next to the whoobie.



Veidon Baine
Chilastra

Sorry about the typos. i should type in word and copy and paste.