Rifleman Archive

Thread: So they want us to be snipers...

shadowlith
Mon May 03, 2004 11:15 am
#1
Bah! Thats what TH said in his 19 answer post.


And they changed our title to Master Rifleman from Sharpshooter why?




Like the Pheonix, he shall rise from the fire
And be born a new.
Flames will rain down upon all that oppose him
And when the embers cool
None will be left standing.
::The A'rien 1/2 of Seniph Gales::


Sotaudi
Mon May 03, 2004 11:45 am
#2




shadowlith wrote:

Bah! Thats what TH said in his 19 answer post.


And they changed our title to Master Rifleman from Sharpshooter why?






I think they have always invisioned us as snipers, but the game mechanics do not allow for it. I do not think that will ever change.


And they changed out title because most of us said we did not like the Sharpshooter title.




Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



ZionHalcyon
Mon May 03, 2004 11:53 am
#3

If we are to be snipers, fine.



Then get rid of the bleed nerf from conceal shot, that or make it possible to 1 hit kill 90% of Humanoid NPC's.


For snipers, we can't snipe all that well against higher end Mobs, which is where I would think a Master Rifleman ought to be.





Z I O N U H A L C Y O N
J O R R EN U DA RK S T A R
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Jorren's Spy Kill-o-meter:
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and countless speederbikes and land speeders.
I love being a spy.
Reb_Archer
Mon May 03, 2004 11:56 am
#4
Best Rifle Tree Title....
Assassin =D
Belegdae
Tue May 04, 2004 6:11 am
#5




ZionHalcyon wrote:

If we are to be snipers, fine.



Then get rid of the bleed nerf from conceal shot, that or make it possible to 1 hit kill 90% of Humanoid NPC's.


For snipers, we can't snipe all that well against higher end Mobs, which is where I would think a Master Rifleman ought to be.








I totally agree snipers find a single target, take aim, and dispatch them in one hit from long distances. Even though TH said that we are snipers we are just like any other ranged prof. We can only shoot as far as 64m away which any other ranged can do. There is only one special we have which allows us to actually be snipers and that is conceal shot, but who wants to spam that all day. We are not snipers but more like infantry men with big guns.





Sulris Carandae
Zade_Taerin
Tue May 04, 2004 6:44 am
#6

I'm under the impression that Rifleman was always intend to be a sniper style class utilizing single high powered shots at slower speeds. The fact that we can fire at the cap of 1.0 second with incredible accuracy and damage only makes it appear that we are machine gunners. I think this is a mistake.


By definition the light "machine gunners" really should be the Carbineers. A carbine is a light automatic rifle, ie. short range,automatic firebutlesser stopping power perround (multiplied by the number ofrounds fires). As everyother ranged classesCarbineers are capped at the 1.0 second...


We may not like the arguement that our speed capcouldbe set to 3.0 seconds but to be fair that's really what should define our class... Sniper... Single Shot, High Accuracy, High Stopping Power, Slower Speed. Our current 1.0 cap is not in good balance to the damage output of the other classes.


I expect to see changes in the combat balance andwhen theycome nobody should really be surprised.


Message Edited by Zade_Taerin on 05-04-2004 09:47 AM



ZADE TAERIN - Crimson Fleet Alliance (-CFA-) - KETTEMOOR
- CL90 OFFICER (ELDER SQUAD LEADER) / ALLIANCE ACE (CFA-88) / CAPTAIN OF THE "NEMESIS" -
VF-88 MARAUDER SQUADRON "DO RIGHT, FEAR NOTHING"

LordTalesin
Tue May 04, 2004 7:52 am
#7

Stop ya whining already. It shouldn't be possible for 1 rifleman to outdamage a group of 4 master levels players versus some of the higher-end mobs. I have had it happen twice this week an many more times in the past.


"Boo-hoo, I can't fire for 2500 damage once per second anymore. I can't steal krayt's from a group that has been workig on it for 30 min. anymore. I am so broken."


Get over yourselves already.





Master Rifleman, Master Bounty Hunter

"Water sleeps, but your enemies don't." The Black Company

"Nothing beats high-powered death at 1000 yards, except a chaingun. That's just pure ecstasy."
Talesin "Desperado"
Waste93
Tue May 04, 2004 8:27 am
#8




Zade_Taerin wrote:


I'm under the impression that Rifleman was always intend to be a sniper style class utilizing single high powered shots at slower speeds. The fact that we can fire at the cap of 1.0 second with incredible accuracy and damage only makes it appear that we are machine gunners. I think this is a mistake.


By definition the light "machine gunners" really should be the Carbineers. A carbine is a light automatic rifle, ie. short range,automatic firebutlesser stopping power perround (multiplied by the number ofrounds fires). As everyother ranged classesCarbineers are capped at the 1.0 second...


We may not like the arguement that our speed capcouldbe set to 3.0 seconds but to be fair that's really what should define our class... Sniper... Single Shot, High Accuracy, High Stopping Power, Slower Speed. Our current 1.0 cap is not in good balance to the damage output of the other classes.


I expect to see changes in the combat balance andwhen theycome nobody should really be surprised.



Message Edited by Zade_Taerin on 05-04-2004 09:47 AM




Carbineers are NOT machine gunners. Lets look at what a carbine is first. A carbine is by definition a short rifle. The M1 carbine from WWII is much shorter than the M1 Garand. Shorter stock and shorter barrel. The M4 carbine is the carbine version of the M16. It has a collapsable stock and a shorter barrel.


Carbines are used when weight and size are a factor for the troops. They first came into common use with calvary units. A shorter weapon was needed so the troops could fire from horseback. Later carbines were issued to vehicle crews since the smaller weapon fit more easily inside the vehicle.


Other types of troops also used them. Namely airborne troops where weight was a major consideration. Nowadays they are issued to special units such as Airborne, Special Forces, and SWAT teams. But they are NOT machine guns.


The other weapon of the carbineer is the sub-machine gun. That also fits in there role. Those are issued to the same types of troops. Specials Forces, SWAT, and assault teams. A good example of this would be the Soviet Guard units during WWII. Entire units outfitted with SMG's (such as the PPSh 41) that were used as assault troops.


Also a carbine does not always have less stopping power than the rifle. Stopping power is a factor of the ammo, not of the weapon really. For example both the M4 carbine and the M16 fire the same round. They have the same stopping power. However the longer barrel on the M16 allows for more accuracy over longer ranges.


The Rifleman is NOT a sniper. We are infantry. It is impossible to be Snipers in the game because of the 64m limit. There are four major skills for the true sniper. Observation, Camo, Accuracy, and Range. Observation isn't possible in the game nor is Camo really since you can always be seen and see everything else. ConcealShot is the closest to Camo but in PvP there is no such thing as Camo. Accuracy we have. Range is non-existant. The 64m max range is very easily closed by anyone within a couple seconds. Yet 64m is LESS than the typical range on any rifle firing range. The typical range on a firing range for rifles is 100 yards. The US military trains it's soldiers on ranges of up to 300 yards. Studies have shown that most combat takes place at ranges up to 300 yards. The typical military sniper engages at ranges of 600-700 yards.


So we are not nor can we be snipers. So are we machine gunners? Again it can be argued that no we are not. So how do we account for high rate of fire attacks such as StrafeShot2? Easy. What is the most common weapon used by the infantryman?


It's the assault rifle. But what is an assault rifle? An assault rifle is a rifle that is capable of select fire. That means it can fire semi-auto (one shot per trigger pull) or on full auto (or burst fire). A full auto assault rifle such as the M16A1 or the AK47 can fire 600 rounds per minute on full auto. That is 10 rounds per second. That is more than enough rounds going down range to account for abilities such as StrafeShot2.


But what about the high damage of our weapons? Rifle rounds do more damage than pistol rounds on average. Though the round itself is usually smaller, it is traveling at a much higher velocity and causes massive wound trauma.


But we aren't using balistic weapons, we are using energy. Yes, but some basic principles stay the same. The internal mechanics between a rifle, carbine, and pistol will be the same. They will all convert energy to a beam when you pull the trigger. And since the physics wouldn't change depending on which weapon you are using, it is safe to assume the internals are very similar. They may look slightly different, and will be different sizes, but for all intents and purposes they are the same.


So a rifle would be larger and bulkier. Which means it could also carry a larger energy pack with more energy in it. But because of physics we know if we fired a shot from a pistol, rifle, or carbine that have the same energy, it will do the same damage. 100 joules is 100 joules regardless of where it came from. Yet with the larger weapons we have two choices. With a larger energy pack that contains more energy, we can either fire the same amount of energy as the smaller weapon and have more shots, or fire a larger burst of energy and have the same number of shots. This is where energy is very different from ballistic ammo.


In a ballistic the same sized round will do the same damage regardless of the weapon and you can not change this. But with an energy based weapon we can increase the energy expended by a shot and hence increase the damage. While still keeping the amount of shots the same as the smaller weapons.


I know pistoleers and carbineers may not like to hear this, but rifles are inherently more damaging than pistols. In ballistic weapons its by nature of being able to use higher powered ammo, in energy weapons its by the ability to fire a larger energy burst.


As for speed. The speed of the weapon isn't a mechanical limitation. Again going to real life weapons a pistol and rifle can fire at about the same rate since the internal mechanics of the two weapons is nearly identical. This is further born out by the fact that you can lower your speed until you hit the 1sec cap. If it was a mechanical limitation then you can't fire faster than that no matter how fast you can pull the trigger. Speed prior to the 1 sec cap is aim time. Rifles are usually take slightly more time to aim than pistol. Reason being they are bulkier and you havestock to tuck into your shoulder. Which is why prior to Master rifles are much slower than pistols. But at Master we are talking about a complete expert in a given weapon. This kind of person would be able to fire very fast. Another factor to take into account for speed is time to reaquire the target. With a rifle you will actually reaquire the target faster than with a pistol. The bulkier rifles helps hold down the recoil better as does the larger recoil springs (on semi's and autos) than a pistol. A pistol when fired jumps in the hand, the rifle just bucks against the shoulder.



Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Waste93
Tue May 04, 2004 1:47 pm
#9




LordTalesin wrote:

Stop ya whining already. It shouldn't be possible for 1 rifleman to outdamage a group of 4 master levels players versus some of the higher-end mobs. I have had it happen twice this week an many more times in the past.


"Boo-hoo, I can't fire for 2500 damage once per second anymore. I can't steal krayt's from a group that has been workig on it for 30 min. anymore. I am so broken."


Get over yourselves already.








Why should it not be possible? If I gave you and three of your buddies pistols and set up a target at 50m. Then I set up my own target at 50m and had an assault rifle (full auto).


Now we cut loose for five full seconds. Which target is going to be more shredded?


It will be the rifle target. First it is more accurate at range so more of my rounds will land on target. Second on full auto I can put out many more rounds that you and your three buddies combined. Thirdly the rifle is more stable allowing it to be held on target easier. That means more rounds striking the target.


So depending on what those four people were masters of and the armor level and resists of the target, it makes all kinds of sense for one person being able to outdamage four others.


Lets look at an example. A Krayt has AR3. The means if you are hitting it with an AP1 pistol, how much damage are you doing? In case you don't know how AP vs AR works, for each level of AP above AR you do an extra 25% damage. For each level of AP below the AR you do 50% less damage.


So your AP1 pistol vs the AR3 Krayt means you are doing 25% damage. The Rifleman has the T21, an AP3 weapon. Which means it is 100% damage. So one rifleman with a T21 will be doing the same base damage as 4 pistoleers with AP1 weapons. Now if the Pistols were AP0 then they would be doing 12.5% damage. Four people with AP0 pistols would do half the base damage as one Rifleman with a T21.


So yes, it is very easily possible for a Rifleman to out damage four others and it makes infinite sense. If you were going to hunt elephants would you use a pistol or a rifle? And why?




Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
BlasterForHire
Tue May 04, 2004 1:57 pm
#10
waste,

nice pair of writeups. correct in every detail, according to my knowledge

unfortunately, the real issue here is one of balance, not realism. people are upset because 1-3 classes in this game dominate compared to others.

can you justify riflemen being as we are? sure. does it make it fair to pistoleers? nope.

i think that's the crux of the issue.
MrBulwark
Tue May 04, 2004 1:58 pm
#11
I am more concerned about the LOS change. It will be very difficult to get LOS on a target at 64m; especially on planets like Dath.





BULWARK


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Bulwark.....simply brilliant.
As much as i would enjoy forcefully inserting Bulwark into a wood chipper, he has a point.
We've already went on record as saying you're fine with us Bulwark.
greatest... post... ever...I lay down my mouse and keyboard at your mighty postingness.
Bulwark, that is the best post ever!
Sotaudi
Tue May 04, 2004 1:59 pm
#12




LordTalesin wrote:

Stop ya whining already. It shouldn't be possible for 1 rifleman to outdamage a group of 4 master levels players versus some of the higher-end mobs. I have had it happen twice this week an many more times in the past.


"Boo-hoo, I can't fire for 2500 damage once per second anymore. I can't steal krayt's from a group that has been workig on it for 30 min. anymore. I am so broken."


Get over yourselves already.







And, I as a Master Rifleman, in a group with others, including a Jedi, have been out damaged by a couple of guys not using rifles. No one here was complaining we could not do 2500 damage per second against a Krayt. Go back under your bridge and get over yourself.



Sotaudi Crestlighter
Master Rifleman / Master Combat Medic
"The Physician's Pain Reference"

Former Professions
Master Doctor | Master Swordsman | Master Brawler
Master Scout | Ranger



Waste93
Tue May 04, 2004 2:38 pm
#13




BlasterForHire wrote:
waste,

nice pair of writeups. correct in every detail, according to my knowledge

unfortunately, the real issue here is one of balance, not realism. people are upset because 1-3 classes in this game dominate compared to others.

can you justify riflemen being as we are? sure. does it make it fair to pistoleers? nope.

i think that's the crux of the issue.




Which is the major issue. People think of game balance as a linear issue. In otherwords a Master level combat profession should do the same damage as all the others.


In most cases they are correct but not in SWG. The reason being we have professions and not classes. Because of this it is impossible to balance in a linear fashion because of the ability to cherry pick abilities.


Have you even played D&D? Are a novice magic user and fighter balanced? Nope. Not even close. The fighter will destroy the magic user almost every time. But what about higher levels? The magic user will probably kill the fighter almost every time.


Lets look at it this way. Lets compare three elite combat professions. Rifle, Pistol, Carbine.


What these nerf herders want in the name of "balance" is everyone doing the same amount of damage at the same level. They like to use Master as their base measurement. So lets ignore for now that a novice Rifle is behind the others. Lets just look at Master level.


A Rifle does the most damage per second at Master level of the three. That is not in dispute. So these people, in the name of balance, want to reduce that so it is the same as the others. Lets say they do. Are those three profession now balanced?


Lets check. Since all the damage is equal it's ok there. Speed would be about equal. Accuracy about the same. So far so good. But lets also look at defenses and special abilities. Those are parts of the profession.


Riflemen have few status change defenses. Pistoleers have lots of them. So now it is no longer balanced. So we can either increase the defenses for Riflemen and Carabineers to equal those of the Pistol or drop the Pistol to our level. All in the name of "balance" of course.


So now we have defenses equal. But what about specials? Carabineers have lots of status effect changes while Pistol and Rifle have few. So again in the name of balance we would have to change them to be equal.


So we end up with three identical professions. Just different titles and graphics for their weapons.


Now we would also have to balance all these issues for Novice level also and up thru the tree. Good luck doing so.


So we come to how to balance them. It's what I call circular balance. That means certain professions have advantages that work well against others. Rifle has pure power (damage output). In a slug fest the Rifle has the advantage. The advantage of the Carbine is the ability to cause status effects. The pistol is defense against status effects.


So what we have is A usually beats B, B usually beats C, and C usually beats A. In other words, equal skill level players and HAM face off. The rifleman should defeat the pistoleer. The reason being the rifle does pure damage (his strength) while the defenses vs status effects doesn't help the pistoleer since the rifle isn't doing them. So the rifle takes on the carbine. Now the carbine does status effects. This disrupts and negates the rifle advantage of pure power and the rifle has little defense against these kinds of attacks. So the rifle gets hit with a dizzy, KD, and a host of other effects. Since the rifle is laying on his back he can't attack. Carbine should usually win. Now the carbine faces the pistol. Pistol has lots of defenses against status effects and can dodge the attack all together. So the carbine is forced to attack the pistoleers strength. While the Pistoleer has few status change attacks they have enough to help since the Carabineers has few defenses against them. Pistoleer should win.


That is a circular balance. Each profession had advantages and disadvantages. It is not nor should it be a 50/50 all the time. Just take the above example and expand it to include all the combat professions. Yes it is difficult to do, but with a profession based system that lets you cherry pick skills it is the only long term solution to achieving balance.


It will also require reeducation for those that think of balance as linear.


When these people complain about how much damage a Rifleman does. Ask them about their defenses or what status change attacks they cando. If they want to focus on one thing about the rifle they think is overpowered. Just show them how you can turn it around and tell them that their ability is something that can help them in certain situations and is not something a rifle can do.


Most people don't look at these other factors in balancing since they are mostly passive. When your defense vs KD kicks in it doesn't tell you. Yet everyone can see the damage done in the combat spam. So it is easy to pick on. But that isn't the whole story. If they still don't understand, just tell them to watch and fire of a special without buffs so they can see our HAM costs. Then tell them to watch someone doing the same with a pistol.



Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
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