Rifleman Archive

I've seen quite a few posts in the past few days about the woes that Riflemen face. Let me first say that I agree with many of your points. However many of these posts are troublesome to me. I am 100% in agreement that Riflemen need some love. They are I think the weakest combat skill other than Carbine, which still holds a strong lock on the number one position. There was a post circulated last week on all the server boards that I felt like I wanted to respond to. My concern is that at least some Rifleman supporters seem to subscribe to the idea that they should never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Unfortunately, the use of creative facts tend to undermine their arguments. Let's look at the Rifleman's plea, and see how it stacks up against the facts:

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Riflemen are already the slowest firing class...

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At Master Rifleman, you'll fire your T21 Rifle (or any other rifle) at a speed of 1.0 with the current combat code, just like Pistols and Carbines will. At Novice Rifleman, you won't hit the speed cap, but neither will most Carbines, and even most pistols won't hit the speed cap at Novice level unless they are speed sliced.

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And do you realize that the only viable weapon for a master rifleman to use is the DL20a due to mind costs?

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Hm...I sell a lot of guns, and pretty much all the Riflemen on Chilastra at least use Laser Rifles and T21's. Did you know that if you calculate DPS/HAM costs, the Laser Rifle is the most HAM efficient weapon, at least comparing weapons made on our server? Maybe the reason the original poster thinks rifles are so bad is merely because he's still using a DLT20a Rifle?

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Our DPS is still far lower than that of pistoleers and a variety of other classes.

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Acutally, when you factor in the speed bonuses that Riflemen get, Rifles outdamage all Pistols and Carbines by FAR. Let's look at the top DPS weapon for each weapon type (note all stats are unsliced, no Krayt tissue, no powerup, etc...these are raw guns made with the best resources on Chilastra):

Pistol:

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  Scatter Pistol - Damage: 110-180, Speed: 2.1, Armor Piercing: Light

(yeah, i know this is a Novice BH cert. gun, but it's the best pistol there is for DPS, so I'm using it here for comparison)

Carbine:

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  Laser Carbine - Damage: 39-264, Speed: 3.7, Armor Piercing: Medium

Rifle:

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  T21 Rifle - Damage: 125-346, Speed: 7.4, Armor Piercing: Heavy

Without factoring in the speed bonuses, it looks like the Riflemen are correct, and the Rifles really are weak...

DPS vs. AP 0

1. 
   
   Scatter Pistol - 86.31


2. 
   
   Laser Carbine - 63.98


3. 
   
   T21 Rifle - 62.16

However to ignore the weapon speed bonuses that each class gets is just silly. A Master Pistoleer gets +74 to Pistol Speed, a Master Caribineer gets +60 to Carbine Speed, and a Master Rifleman gets +90 to Rifle Speed (all stats assume Master Marksman is not trained). The Master Pistoleer and Master Rifleman both have more than enough speed bonus to bring their effective speed down to 1.0. The Master Caribineer actually gets hosed here, as his +60 bonus is only enough to bring the effective speed of my sample Laser Carbine down to 1.48. Unless the Master Caribineer also picks up Master Marksman or some Bounty Hunter skills, they really get the short end of the stick. In any case, recalculating the same stats to factor in the speed mods of a Master in each weapon, the list changes dramatically...

DPS vs. AP 0, with Profession Speed Mods factored in

1. 
   
   T21 Rifle - 459.96


2. 
   
   Scatter Pistol - 181.25


3. 
   
   Laser Carbine - 161.03

The list changes quite a lot, when you factor in the profession speed mods. Ironically enough, the same poster who doesn't use profession speed mods when he calculates DPS later says....

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The blessing of being a "master" rifleman is not a "toHit" bonus, or a damage increase, but in the amazing speed with which we can fire.

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And finally, he goes on to say:

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and make the T21 actually better than a Laser Rifle. The DPS on a T21 is considerably worse than for a laser rifle

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On Chilastra at least, this is simply not true. On some servers I'm sure the Laser Rifle is better than the T21 Rifle. On some servers T21's can't even be crafted yet. I can assure you though, that if you give it time, and decent resources spawn for each of these weapons, the Laser Rifle is most assuredly NOT better than the T21. Not by a long shot. With the resource rotatations broken on so many galaxies, I think you're trying to fix the wrong thing here. Get the resource spawn system working properly (and it is on some galaxies) and you'll have some accurate numbers to test with.

All this being said, I DO think Riflemen need some love. The reason I post this is my personal opinion is that the Rifleman community, lead by their correspondent, is hurting their own cause by mis-representing facts and stating opinions that are simply wrong. The Pistoleer community did a huge amount of research, and put together a very compelling discussion about the challenges they face. If Riflemen would do the same, instead of running off half-cocked with half-truths, I think they would get a much better response...

Best regards,

Maybe the T21 is truly at the heart of my troubles as a rifleman, if I wasn't still using a laser rifle maybe getting rifle XP wouldn't be so grueling.

From what I hear though only half the galaxies are crafting any kind of T21 at all. Out of those, I have to wonder how many servers are making teh Quality T21's that you have on Chilastra.

Your calculations for Master-class Pistoleers, Carbineers and Riflemen do not take into account the fact that we Riflemen can only shoot 10-14 shots (without buffing) before we run out of our Mind Pool. After that, we sit around for 3-5 minutes waiting for it to regenerate.

The DPS output for Pistoleers and Carbineers is *sustainable* damage output. That is, they can just pop a stimpack and keep shooting. That simply isn't the case for Riflemen.

You also forget to mention that most pistoleers are Bounter Hunters.

This gets them even more pistol speed, I believe it adds up to over +100 speed improvement, meaning they can do any special attack and still fire once per second regardless of the speed penalty of the move. 0004 Pistoleer, 0040 Bounty Hunter and plenty of points left over for whatever you want. (I suggest novice medic and pethaps the LLC tree.)

There is no class Riflemen can get to make them better with a rifle.

My beef with Rifleman rants is that there is about 1000 of them and they are mostly rehashing the same comments.

But anyway, Xevioux, in regards to your comments:

"At Master Rifleman, you'll fire your T21 Rifle (or any other rifle) at a speed of 1.0 with the current combat code, just like Pistols and Carbines will. At Novice Rifleman, you won't hit the speed cap, but neither will most Carbines, and even most pistols won't hit the speed cap at Novice level unless they are speed sliced"

Master Rifleman firing specials at 1 per second with T21will have about 10 shots before he incaps himself due to Mind Ham costs. Just something to keep aware of with this whole argument about speed. And ONLY Master Rifleman gets that fast, the difference between 4 4 4 4 and Master is apparently 2 to 3 seconds from all reports.

"Hm...I sell a lot of guns, and pretty much all the Riflemen on Chilastra at least use Laser Rifles and T21's. Did you know that if you calculate DPS/HAM costs, the Laser Rifle is the most HAM efficient weapon, at least comparing weapons made on our server? Maybe the reason the original poster thinks rifles are so bad is merely because he's still using a DLT20a Rifle?"

I am betting that most of those folks are NOT master riflemen. Lots of people (noobs)like those big shots, but the down time between fights can be insane with those weapons. DLT20a is a much more mind friendly weapon & the damage is more consistant than a Laser. Many servers have never seen a T21.

Regarding your DPS comments:

Few players will see Master Rifleman. The grind right now is real freaking hard. You fight, use specials, drain your mind and have to sit to get it back. So few people have this "Overpowering Benefit" of the T21 at 1 shot per sec. And again, something to keep in mind is that there are at least 5 servers that have never seen a T21. So while the DPS example with that weapon looks crazy, it is not the best choice for fighting with.

And AP is borked right now. Versus players with no armor on, it does nothing. Vs players with armor on, it only works if there is a % energy resist. Same thing with mobs. If I use AR2 laser on AR0 mob with no % energy resist, I get no damage multiplier.

So any example of DPS using a T21, AR ratings and Master Whatever are not properly illustratingthe performance of any of the ranged classes. Nor is it even a small part of the overall combat picture. HAM pool use, range modifiers, accuracy, specials, etc.. Just a small example of things to keep in mind

A lot of these arguments have to do with speed. Will they still apply after rifles are changed to 3.0?

here is what u need to do...get a masterWP to make you a laserrifle with krayt tissue...then get it sliced and use a spd PU. my rifle is an amazing 2.7sec spd with 400+ max damage...way better than my T21, if i want, i can use a damage PU and increase the max damage to over 500...spd goes to 4.7

still, this is an AWESOME weapon and i cant wait to hit master with it

Shrug. I never claimed to be an expert on the Rifleman class. I have played a Rifleman, as well as a Smuggler, Caribinier, Pistoleer, and Bounty Hunter. I agree that the Rifleman class has issues. What folks here don't seem to understand is thatI want Rifleman to be improved. For crying out loud, I AGREE that your chosen profession needs some dev love.

The problem is thatwhen you use innaccurate or incorrect information about weapons, it makes the rest of your comments suspect as well. How can I believe your conclusions about the issues facing your class when I KNOW the comments about weapons are simply wrong?

The Pistoleer correspondent did a great job of collecting the facts before he posted in the public forums, and he got a great response from the Devs. I'd like to see the Riflemen profession get the same result.

Arrrrrgh...do u even read our posts for this forum??? I believe Aldeon (our correspondance) is the most organized and articulate person out there...what he is fighting is a lost cause however...since what we are getting at is...over 80% perphaps more of the combat professions are pistoleers/BHs...this is why the devs adores them...or is it vice versa???...nough said

Really? Let me quote your Rifleman Correspondent:

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Aldeon writes:

We dont care about DPS...

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This is from a PM he sent to me, where I was trying to help him with some accurate numbers for his comparisons. According to him, up front damage is all that matters for rifles, and nobody cares about DPS. Well, if that were true, then why all the concern about HAM costs and DPS? He then goes on to tell me you have to put a stock on a Laser Rifle, since up front damage is all that matters, and yet in the next sentence he tells me nobody would use a T21 with a stock because the HAM costs would be too high. Huh? Am I the only one who finds this illogical?

Because they're not wrong? Your stats are wrong.

Nobody is a "Pistoleer". People have 250 skill points to spend. If you want to compare classes, compare 250 points to 250 points.

Pistoleers can augment their power greatly by going up BH. Riflemen have no such option. This is an important part of why pistols are hugely popular and hugely powerful. By comparing Pistoleer to Rifleman you aren't getting a realistic example of what's in the field. I would suggest that out of 10 people with pistols I fight, only 1 will actually be"just" a pistoleer.

And even for ____+CH. Rifleman+CH fighting a pistoleer isn't nearly as effective as pistoleer+CH fighting a rifleman. The rifleman's pet does little bonus damage to the pistoleer while the pistoleer's pet does massive damage to the rifleman. Because of this and because of weapon speed, the pistoleer also has an easier time landing warning shots.

Basically you ignored all the real-world cases and presented a situation that never occurs in game: Rifleman vs Pistoleer.

Multiply all the dps numbers posted above by 5 for the 5x damage specials pistol users chain.. and they can chain them endlessly because of low ham costs, tatooine sunburn and heals. In a group setting a pistoleer will always outdamage me andI wind up on auto-attack alot.. why? because my specials use more HAM and they use mind which is unhealable, and there's no +1600 focus drink out there i can drink twice. Also, they're talking about making pistol speed 6x faster.. so I guess you're arguing that pistols should not be firing at 0.5 seconds because that would make them even more overpowered?

Also, the DLT20a is the most efficient weapon when it comes to mind usage.. yes, the action usage is higher on the weapon, but action usage matters just as little for us as it does to pistoleers because it canbe stimmed or reduced to nothing using tatooine sunburn.