Rifleman Archive

Thread: Abriged History of Sniping

Waste93
Tue May 04, 2004 5:46 pm
#1





So the Devs had stated that their vision (not necessarily our vision) of a Rifleman is that of the Sniper. I disagree with their conclussion for a rather lengthy list of reasons. But prior getting into that, if they want us to be snipers then the question is, which kind?


What do I mean? There are three basic types of "snipers". They are the military, law enforcement, and the hunter.


Most people may agree with the first two, but hunter? Yes. These three types of "snipers" have many similarities yet at the same time some major differences. To help explain these I am going to give a brief and rather abriged history of the evolution of the sniper. So this post will be rather lengthy. I feel it is necessary as it seems a fair number of people get their idea of a sniper solely from computer games. While these games are rather fun to play, they are very rarely based on how things really work. How many times have you put your crosshair on the target while playing the game and hit your target exactly where you aimed. And how many times have you put your sight on a target with a real weapon and missed?


So lets begin.


Where does the term "sniper" come from? The term comes from a bird. A snipe is a small bird that is rather quick. It is similar to the sandpiper. Their size and quickness made them difficult to hunt with the weapons of the time. The weapons of the time were generally the flintlock. It is important to understand how a flintlock works to realize just how hard it could be to hit a snipe. A flintlock is a blackpowder weapon that uses a flint striking a metal plate to create a spark. This spark ignites the flash pan which has a hole going into the chamber of the barrel. This in turns lights the main charge and propels a round ball out the barrel. The powder at the time was not the fast acting powder we use now. Because the charge in the flashpan has to then travel and ignite the charge in the chamber there is a delay between firing the weapon and it going off.


This delay is what helped make the snipe hard to hit. The flint striking the metal and igniting the pan makes a lot of noise. Noise which will startle most animals when the hear it. So it enabled the snipe to start to move prior to the ball leaving the barrel.


Those that were acomplished hunters of the snipe were called snipers. The term we use today. As you can also see the term comes from hunters, part of the reason I am putting hunters in as a kind of sniper.


What is the evolution of "sniping"? This is going to be a very abriged history lesson. There are numerous excellent books you can read if you want more detailed information.


Something to keep in mind as part of the evolution. At the time the sniper started to come into being the primary weapon of the military was the musket. The difference between the rifle and the musket is small but of major significance. They both work the same way and look the same for all intents. The difference is inside the barrel. A rifle has rifling, a series of groves in a spiral pattern along the length of the barrel. A musket barrel is smooth. A rifle improves accuracy by have the projectile grip these grooves and it imparts a spin creating greater stability and hence accuracy.


Since both flintlock muskets and rifles were muzzle loaders the musket was favored since it could be fired at a much faster rate. The ball was smaller than the barrel opening allowing it to be dropped right in and was held in place by a wad or patch. For the rifle to grip the grooves it had to be slightly larger and you had to pound the ball down the barrel. These causes a much slower rate of fire and deforms the projectile.


But the accuracy of the musket is rather poor. It is part of the reason the units would get so close before firing. A test was once done. A large piece of paper was set up at the usual range (30-50 yards) and 100 men lined up just like they would in combat and fired at this paper. The paper was as long as a typical line of men. The number of holes was counted and came to a little over 30. So there was a 30% hit rate with a musket. The army then drew pictures on the paper to simulate a man. Then they only counted those that would have hit someone. The rate dropped to 10-15%. As you can see, muskets in combat conditions were not very accurate.


American Revolution : The early frontiersmen that fought with the British would often have rifles as opposed to muskets. This was because the supplied their own weapons and often used the same weapon they hunted with. For hunting you used a rifle since rate of fire wasn't nearly as important as accuracy. The game would usually be gone before you would get a second shot. As the war went on the colonials equipped their units with muskets and fought in lines abrest just like the British.


One interesting story of this time is that of a British officer. He was going to test an experimental rifle. It was a breach loader (loaded from the rear). The story goes that he had the opportunity to shoot Washington early in the war but did not, either because he did not think it sporting to shoot someone in the back or because Washington was warned of his presence by another officer and rode out of range. This British officer was later severly wounded so his weapon did not get a major testing.


Napoleonic Wars : At the time of the Napoleonic wars the musket was still the primary weapon. However the British started to experiment with rifle equipped skirmishers. These men fought in a loose formation in front of their regular lines. They were tasked with taking down enemy officers and gun crews.


American Civil War : A couple inventions made this the first major conflict with snipers as we usually think of them. Those inventions was the percussion cap and the minnie ball. The percussion cap allowed the weapon to fire when the trigger was pulled without the delay that flintlocks suffered. Again this invention was by a hunter. Tired of loosing water fowl that would fly away when the flashpan went off, he experimented until he invented the percussion cap.


The second invention was the minnie ball. Though it is not trully a ball it is actually conical in design. The base has a hollow cavity. Being smaller than the barrel opening it would drop in. When fired the cavity would expand and grip the rifling and cause spining. The era of the rifle being they main infantry weapon was born.


The most famous sniper unit of this time was the Berdan Sharpshooters. To join the person had to pass a test of their accuracy. They were also going to be equiped with the new breachloading rifle to enable them to shoot from a prone position. Though some had to settle for the Colt Revolving Rifle for awhile at first. Like the Napoleonic skirmishers they targeted gun crews and officers.


The Southerners also started using sharpshooters equipped with Whitworth rifles. There were heavy target rifles made for precission shooting. Some of the first tricks were used in this war. Putting up a had to draw fire started here. As did they use of snipers in the counter sniper role. One major drawback though was still the powder. It still let off a puff of smoke that would give away the shooters position. Also telescopic sites were not really used. Target sights and sighting scopes were used.


Boer War : A conflict that is rarely studied in the US. Yet this conflict introduced a number of things that would change the face of warfare. Organized guerilla warfare, breechloading artillery, bolt action rifles, and smokeless powder. Unfortunately for the British it was the Boers that were using these at first.


The Boers were the local colonists that had been in the area for a long time. They were expert horseman and excellent shots. The need to be able to hit your target was very important in this type of open terrain and for the Boers to survive.


The Boers were also excellentat using camo. One British solider reported that in all the fights he was in, he never once saw a Boer that was firing at his position.


The Boers would spread out in a loose formation, use camo, and fire at the grouped British troops with devastating accuracy. It was this war that changed British military training from volley firing to accurate single fire.


** Historical Sidenote ** Winston Churchill was involved in this conflict and one event helped him in his later rise to power. Churchill was a PoW during the conflict that managed to escape and return to British forces.


The Great War : The First World War saw the advent of the military sniper as we usually think of it. Early in the war the Allies were suffering an unusual number of officer and gun crew casualties to "stray" or "lucky" shots. The Germans had deployed snipers along their lines.


The trench lines of the Allies and the Germans were different. The Allies kept their lines relatively clean of debris. While the Germans piled up debris in front of their lines. This broken up the usual straightline and made it easier for the Germans to hide machine guns and sniper nests along their lines.


The Brits worked at forming their own snipers. Because they need these troops quickly they called upon those with skills that would serve them. The looked for poachers and game wardens. Some of the most famous of these were the Ghillies. These game wardens had developed a camo suit made from strips of burlap to hide their shape while they worked at stopping poachers. It is here we get the Ghillie suit.


While German snipers usually worked by themselves, Brit snipers often worked in teams. A spotter and a shooter. Their role wasn't only to eliminate high value targets but to also observe enemy positions and report what they saw. The role of the sniper as also a recon specialist was started.


The other major change for the sniper at this time was the introduction of the optical telescopic sight. This allowed them to observe the enemy lines much better than in the past and increased their accuracy at long distance targets.

Message Edited by Waste93 on 11-28-2004 07:23 PM



Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Waste93
Tue May 04, 2004 6:50 pm
#2

World War II : The second world war saw many changes in warfare. However the role of the sniper did not differ much from the first world war. The major change being that warfare was now much more mobile so the sniper also had to be.

There were few equipment changes for the sniper. A only major one being the use of semi-auto as sniper rifles (Soviet SVT40 and the German G43). Most still prefered the use of the bolt action rifle. Telescopic sight were improved over the prior conflict with greater magnification possible. Scopes in both WWI and WWII had magnification usually of 3-4X. Though in WWII there was also use of 6X and even 10X scopes.


One change of note was however urban combat. In prior wars this was not nearly as prevelant as it was during WWII. If you have seen "Enemy at the Gates" you get a good idea of how urban warfare presented it's own unique challenges to the sniper.


** Historical Sidenote ** One point of interest. If you have seen the movie you also know of the duel between Zitsev and Konning. The the story is slightly different than that shown in the movie, there is no real historical evidence that such a duel actually took place. Though this story is usually taken as fact, there is a lack of evidence that there was a Major Konning in the german military that was sent to Stalingrad and was killed. Of course records could have been lost so this story is unconfirmed.


Vietnam : Semi auto sniper rifles generally fell out of favor with the US military. The Marines in particular switched back to a bolt action rifle. Bolt action rifles are more accurate since there is less movement within the rifle itself while the bullet is going down the barrel. Of note is also that Marines called their snipers Recon Snipers.


US snipers usually worked in teams. They would not only snipe the enemy but also acted as forward observers in calling in artillery when they felt it was needed.


We also have the use of large caliber weapons for extreme range sniping. This was usually done by mounting a scope to a tripod mounted .50 machine gun and firing it semi auto. Kill shots of over a mile were recorded.


Present : Many snipers have now gone back to the bolt action rifle. They usually work in teams and their primary role is not only elimination of high value targets, but also of observation. But we have also seen the advent of another kind of sniper. The law enforcement sniper.


Military Sniper : This is the sniper most people think about. The military sniper has the role of not only eliminating high value targets, but also of observing and reporting on the enemies movements. Typical ranges for the military sniper are usually 600-700m. They use high precision weapons, high tech optics, and old fashioned accurate shooting to acomplish their mission.


The military sniper is also a formidable psychological weapon. Soldiers in general understand that they can be injuried or killed in combat. But it is usually an abstract concept for them. Yet the thought of a sniper picking them out will usually send a chill up their spine. It is this aspect of being singled out that has throught the snipers history led them to be reviled not only by the enemy but also in many cases by those on their same side.


In the past it was not uncommon for a sniper that was captured to be summarily executed. Not was it uncommon for the snipers own comrade in arms to call them "murders".


Concealment for the military sniper is of vital importance. If they are spotted the enemy can call in heavy weaponry to destroy their position. It is for this reason they prefer to engage at long range. It makes them harder to spot and easier to escape if need be.


Observation is also of vital importance since the modern role of the sniper is also to gather information on the enemies movements.


Law Enforcement Sniper : There are some important differences between the LE Sniper and the Military Sniper which is why I'm listing it seperately.


LE Snipers have a much different target type than the other sniper types. They are usually called in as part of a SWAT team in hostage and barricaded subject situations. This also usually means their terrain is urban.


Urban terrain and because of the criminal, as opposed to military, nature of the targets allows the LE sniper to set up much closer to the target. Also camo is of less importance. The criminal knows the cops are out there anyway and they really can't call in artillery on the snipers position (at least the vast majority of the time). So the LE sniper will set up on rooftops or in buildings with clear lines of sites. Also most criminals are armed with pistol so even a distance of 100m can offer the LE sniper a fair amount of protection.


The LE sniper is part of a larger team. Usually a SWAT team. The LE sniper will cover the SWAT team as they make entry. Prior to that their main task is observation. Watch the target, determine how many bad guys, what weapons, where people are. Information that is vital for an entry team. Sometimes the LE sniper will also be called on to take out a target of opportunity.


Hunter : I'm hoping by now most of you will see why I've included a hunter as a type of sniper. Many of the innovations such as optical sights, ghillie suits, and the word itself came from hunters. A sniper is basicaly someone that can fire accurately over distance from a concealed position. A hunter also does this.


A hunter hunts animals. That is a major difference between the hunter and the other types of snipers. Yet many aspects are the same. Hunters fire from long range using optical sights in an effort to hit the target in a single shot. If they miss their prey is likely to escape.


The hunter also relies on camo. But not only visual. They also rely more on scent and sound camo than the others. Though animals are in general fairly stupid, the have keen senses and have not problems bolting when the sense something wrong. So the hunter has to not only hide visually. They most also practice sound (stealth) and odor discipline and negate the animals increased senses.


Conclusion : So there is the basics about the history of sniping and the types of sniping. Hope this has been of some interest to some of you and hope you learned some things. I am not an expert on sniping. It is a topic that has interested me for a long time so I've read a fair amount on it. But my knowledge comes from reading experts and from firing actualy sniper weapons. Not solely from playing on the computer and RPGs.


I'm also hoping from reading this you will get an understanding of why Rifleman being Snipers is not possible under the current game system. The sniper relies on four items for sucess. Accuracy, Range, Concealment, and Observation.


Accuracy is a skill we have. It is something the game has. So that is not an issue. However there is part of an issue here. Snipers rely on long range accurate fire to kill the target. Firing at ranges that non-snipers can not do effectively. However in the game the accuracy of Master level professions makes it so there is no real difference between the Rifleman (sniper) and the non-sniper.


Range. Distance is the snipers friend, at least in the military snipers role. The greater distance between the target and the sniper the less chance of the sniper being spotted and killed. In the military sniper role the sniper is usually part of a two man team. Which means they are usually greatly outnumbered. So while the sniper knows he is accurate over a great distance, they also know the average soldier is not. In the game there is no range. 64m max range isn't even the length of the typical rifle range. Nor are they very likely to increase it. That means the rifleman gets off one or two shots before the enemy locates and closes the distance if need be.


Concealment. SImilar to the range issue. As shown above the sniper relies on being able to remain unseen while the target and shoot their target. Yet in game there is no real concealment. We do have ConcealShot. But that works only on MOBs and NPCs. It has no effect on players since a player can see and be seen by all other players.


Observation. Something that probably can't be simulated in the game. The fourth part of the sniper profession is the ability to observe and report enemy movements while remaining hidden. How this would be put in the game I have no idea.


So of the four skills vital for the sniper. Only one is mostly in the game. That is accuracy. One can not be added (observation) that I am aware of. While one (range) the Devs have set they will not change, while the fourth (concealment) could possibly be changed to fit in with a sniper role.


So how are Riflemen suppose to be snipers?




Message Edited by Waste93 on 11-28-2004 07:28 PM



Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
rahzael
Tue May 04, 2004 8:03 pm
#3



i see the rifleman as a military sniper....well out of range...(64+...even as far as 100+). i want them to be feared, and be extremly damaging, but at the price of immobility (improved "take cover" and make it useful in pvp) defense(no mitigations) and speed to some extent. when i first heard of this class i was excited, i thought they would be way outside of battles, slowly but surely.


it would be nice if they could be well out of range of radar and pick off opponents, maybe not 1 hit incaping, but severely damaging( although 1 hit incap would be great). eventually after a few kills, if the group had a SL or ranger, they could detect the sniper, then at higher levels, the sniper could move before the group zeroed in on them....this is a quick makeshift idea, but a dream nonetheless.


out of all the combat classes, this has the greatest potential..even more so than BH. if SOE made this class like true snipers, id dump everything for it...but for now, 3004 rifles will suffice.

Message Edited by rahzael on 05-04-2004 08:03 PM



Rahzael Solus|Assasin|Sentinel

Onichi
Tue May 04, 2004 8:25 pm
#4
Awesome post Waste93,


I too remember starting the game and choosing Rifleman because I thought it'd be a "Sniping" type profession but after a while have realised that it just cant be implementedproperly in the current combat environment. Not without some major changes as you have specified anyway.


Snipers I think will only work fairly well in the domain of your First Person Shooter Environment where you have the twitch reflex systems and scopes and such.


That said, I'm really enjoying the profession as it is now..


/salute



In the immortal words of the mighty Chewbacca "MUAAAAAAAARRRRRRrrrgh!"
Imperial Leiutenant

Official Rifleman's Motto: Of all the things i've lost, I miss my mind the most.
"If you can see it without a scope, it aint Sniping"
Eined
Tue May 04, 2004 8:31 pm
#5

That was one of the best, most informative posts I have ever read on these boards, and Ive been reading them since day 1. I loved it. I read the book about Sgt Hathcock, and one of the truly interesting things about snipers, besides being skilled, is the mental aspect.


Of course when I think swg I dont think of the snipers you mentioned. For my sniper fill, I would play Day of Defeat, or a first person shooter. All the points you bring up are valid. I dont think we will ever see the Rifleman as a sniper in swg, but that is alright I guess. Sniper is more fun playing in first person mode anyway.


Awesome post


Eined





-----------------------------------
Eined
Master TK / Doctor
Playing since Beta
Rebel for Life
-----------------------------------
Vargos
Tue May 04, 2004 9:02 pm
#6
sweet post. You did your homework and took your time.I understand your point as do most of us. They can't match real life but they can try i guess. I assume they'll give us some more range but not much, I assume they can't give us accuracy based on player because it would be the only twitch sensitive profession (next to pilot in space expansion), and concealment i think they'll give us...which will go hand in hand w/ immobility.



________________________________________________________________
Vargos
F*ck Darwin, I AM Natural Selection
RIP Alexandre Roi, Troteg Gato, Spike Spiegal, Dellenia Faeyed, Calais Firethorne
Un-Ban RiseFM
XaverriJade7
Wed May 05, 2004 4:41 am
#7
Nice job Waste. Maybe Keldarin should see this?





Kezia Sunshade
RIS Certified - Master Armorsmith - 12 Exp. Pts
Vendor locations:
Outland, Naboo (7013, 3646) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor & Imperial Prototype PSGs
Elexis' Hard Wars Cafe in Paradox, Lok (1330, -305) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor
Rowsey
Wed May 05, 2004 4:44 am
#8
Nice post and all but please, lose the green text. Its good for catching the eye but once someone is in a post whats the point, you've allready cought it. And with very long and elaborate posts like these the green can get pretty painfull on the eye... at least my old eyes. Anyway just a suggestion.


The current rifleman setup I think can work as a sniper provided the player wants to use it as such. If your not trying to achieve those "uber" pvp templates you can spread out your skillpoints to professions such as ranger which can help you get inot the role of a sniper. With abilities such as mask scent for the hunter, Tracking for the military, and the LE is out of luck with the LOS being so out of whack. It would be real nice for riflemen to shoot from balconies. I've seen people complain about the radar and maps hurting pvp by making it easy for enemies to be spotted. I can't help but agree but I think its good for some cases.


What if abililities such as camo and items such as camo kits could be made to work in pvp making players invisble to enemy radar. Possibly even throwing in counter-sniper abilities to other rifleman and group bonuses to the ability granted through the squad leader.


I do agree with you on a great deal, however I have to say there is alot available its just all in the eye of the beholder so to say. Now there is so much more that is possible in and out of current game mechanics that yes should be in place to really get into the role of a sniper. But in the end its all about the company producing the game and what they see and feel should be done. THe comming combat balance I would hope to bring a great deal to the game enhancing the roles of each profession like the rifleman or sniper and placing them into a more fitting role.


We shall see.



Sabmin:Elder Dark Jedi: Imperial ACE PILOT
Crowsey: Master Shipwright: 9X MASTER PILOT
PyscoJuggalo
Wed May 05, 2004 5:48 am
#9

Great post, really informative on the birth of an evolution of the sniper.



-I agree with you in this game they can not duplicate a real life sniper. The type of "sniper" we will be if they force us down that role will be some silly slow firing rifleuser that is incompetent in battle and has no ranged nor camo abilities. I really wish they would increase our range by 64m(total 128m) and give us a player camo ability(were the player has to detect us and can not target/see us until the player gets a "You have detected a Sniper" Message. Thats the only way I know how to bypassRadar Hacks that everyone says will destroy Stealth). Though 128 is a small range it is closer to the LE sniper who uses to his advantage that his objective's Weapon has a limited range.


But we know Rifleman will not get 128m Range and Player Camo so this is a moot point. I think that we will be snipers in name only and it will be used as something to define our limits but not what we really are. Like pistoleers/carbineers/ectsay "Your snipers you should shoot slow" but you will never see them say "Your snipers you should have Player Como and a much longer range, maybe double that of your current range".


So in closing let us enjoy rifleman now, before they totally cut us into shreds.





I am the Mad Rifleman, Writer of the Riflenomican. I understand the secrets of the Dark Ancient Developer ones and their Evil. (Maniacal Laughter) He he he he he, Ha ha ha ha ha, Aha ha ha ha!
CM's are like nukes. You have them just incase you need them, but as soon as you start using yours the other guys start using theirs and everything goes to hell-PyschoticChipmunk -The First line of the Riflenomican.
XaverriJade7
Wed May 05, 2004 5:59 am
#10

Hey PyschoticChipmunk, you reminded me of something- Alertness. **edit** is it supposed to be? Sounds like a defense to this camo ability, but we've never been able to conceal ourselves, so maybe the Devs did intend for this to be in-game at one point. I guess I'm not really going anywhere with this, so I'll just stop now


EDIT: Haha, and now W T F gets auto-edited.../sigh

Message Edited by XaverriJade7 on 05-05-2004 06:00 AM





Kezia Sunshade
RIS Certified - Master Armorsmith - 12 Exp. Pts
Vendor locations:
Outland, Naboo (7013, 3646) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor & Imperial Prototype PSGs
Elexis' Hard Wars Cafe in Paradox, Lok (1330, -305) - Kashyyykian Hunting Armor
MSP0
Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 am
#11

It is my understanding that large caliber rifles were used in WWII. The Anti-Tank Rifles were not good at their intended role, but proved superb at picking off Infantry. Today's Barrett (50 cal) is for all intents and purposes an ATR, though it is now know as "simply" an sniper rifle.


Pardon the nitpick, please. Thanks for the history lesson!




Message Edited by MSP0 on 05-05-2004 09:26 AM



Makkil of Wanderhome - Assistant to the Mayor of New Defiance, Naboo
(Master Rifleman/Master Bio-Engineer)

Supreme Cuisine and BioTech, at the Market in New Defiance
-4267, 3107, On New Defiance, Naboo (1.2km SSE of Theed)
taloncard
Wed May 05, 2004 7:01 am
#12
only one way for us to truly be snipers and people would scream exploit.

Allow us to initiate combat with overts while covert.

we would still be seen by other player but would get 1 (rather useless) shot before they could attack.

Again this would never work with the community at large.




Severan T'iam (Valcyn) RIP 7/2/2003-5/8/2005.
Master Nerf herder (oops I mean CH oops CH is gone but never forgotten)
SWG: Quote: Grand moff Tarkin: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. you my friend are all thats left of their religon. Except for the other 5000 over there...


SmoothOperator
Wed May 05, 2004 7:16 am
#13
Great post waste.


If only we could have a Barret "light 50".


One problem with PvP sniping is turrets. If we could shoot from say 128m then we'd be able to safely pick off all a bases turrets without danger of being hurt. They wouldnt be able to increase a turret's range because then no-one else would be able to get at them.


FotM status would go through the roof as all PvPers would have rifleman skills to take out turrets. Then the whole of PvP would be sniping and counter-sniping. Melee wouldsimply not exist anymore.


I think it's a catch 22 situation when it comes to rifles and snipers in SWG.



Proinsias MacGiollaCumhaíll
i R Commando
Ronin

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