Ranger Archive
Thread: Next Question, 4th, for TH.
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Squidwalker
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:30 am
#1
Here is I thought of and would like to know the answer to. So here is my proposes question, with my best way to say it.
After launch, the rangers received a new ability /conceal that was meat with joy excitement. It worked similar to /mask scent, but we could apply it to others, and it was told to us would work on agro NPC. Initially it was working OK, and after some time the rangers and devs made it so a ranger could gather the resources for the camo kits themselves. Time needed to be spent gathering the special resources for camo kit, in order to use /conceal. Over time the rangers noticed a drop in it's effectivness against NPC, especially if there was negative faction involved. After inquiring about this, we were told that it was not intended to work against NPC.
In the mean time, rangers have not found a decisive advantage to using /conceal over /mask scent, other then it can be aplied to other players. Almost every other player in the game has /mask scent and so few rangers bother using /conceal. It was told to us that when used on another, it's effectiveness was based on the skill of the ranger giving it. This does not seem to be the observed pattern. What the rangers would lilke to know is, what's the mathematical difference between /mask scent and /conceal as far as effectivness? When applied to someone else, who's skill mod is used on that other person when animals(NPC?) check against it? Is there a big enough difference in effectiveness between /mask scent and /conceal to make it worth the trouble of camo kits? In the devs eyes, what is supposed to be the rangers advantage and incentive for using /conceal on themselves and others, over just using /mask scent and letting everyone else use their own /mask scent?
Hope it makes sense, and I'm sure it can be worded better, but this early that's pretty impressive before coffee 30.
/discuss
Seraph00X
Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:32 am
#2
that's a pretty well thought out question. I don't have anything better, so go for it 
Ether_Sunrider
Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:13 am
#3
Even tho you question is very well put up, im afriad it will never work because:
1- Thunderheart and the devs have EXPLICTLY said, MANY TIMES, that they will by no means release formulas nor mathematics implied on the game. So if u ask again about formulas and mathematics we will get that response again .
2. NRass the previous Ranger correspondet and Brisc Rubal the scout correspondent conducted a thourough experiment to test exaclty this, im too lazy to look for this post but im sure u will have no trouble finding if u look for it. If i remeber well, they proved that when u apply cvamo to a palyer is the applier's mod the one that works, and the a master ranger, with BE camo clothes will get 95 % effecivenes of camo on 25 level crits IF U ARE IN PRONE POSTION whilst mask scent got and effecctivenes of 85% also in rpone( not sure about the mask scent but im pretty sure camos was 95%). Anywa please look for the post and this question of yours will be answered almost in tins entirety.
Cya
1- Thunderheart and the devs have EXPLICTLY said, MANY TIMES, that they will by no means release formulas nor mathematics implied on the game. So if u ask again about formulas and mathematics we will get that response again .
2. NRass the previous Ranger correspondet and Brisc Rubal the scout correspondent conducted a thourough experiment to test exaclty this, im too lazy to look for this post but im sure u will have no trouble finding if u look for it. If i remeber well, they proved that when u apply cvamo to a palyer is the applier's mod the one that works, and the a master ranger, with BE camo clothes will get 95 % effecivenes of camo on 25 level crits IF U ARE IN PRONE POSTION whilst mask scent got and effecctivenes of 85% also in rpone( not sure about the mask scent but im pretty sure camos was 95%). Anywa please look for the post and this question of yours will be answered almost in tins entirety.
Cya
Squidwalker
Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:25 am
#4
Ether_Sunrider wrote:
Even tho you question is very well put up, im afriad it will never work because:
1- Thunderheart and the devs have EXPLICTLY said, MANY TIMES, that they will by no means release formulas nor mathematics implied on the game. So if u ask again about formulas and mathematics we will get that response again .
2. NRass the previous Ranger correspondet and Brisc Rubal the scout correspondent conducted a thourough experiment to test exaclty this, im too lazy to look for this post but im sure u will have no trouble finding if u look for it. If i remeber well, they proved that when u apply cvamo to a palyer is the applier's mod the one that works, and the a master ranger, with BE camo clothes will get 95 % effecivenes of camo on 25 level crits IF U ARE IN PRONE POSTION whilst mask scent got and effecctivenes of 85% also in rpone( not sure about the mask scent but im pretty sure camos was 95%). Anywa please look for the post and this question of yours will be answered almost in tins entirety.
Cya
Well I vaguely remember the "no formulas" stuff. So we just reword it, and ask for what the effective difference is. I also remember when NRaas and Delta did these tests. And from what I remember NRass posted that mask scent is 95% effective and /conceal is 98% effective. If that is the case then /coceal is not really worth the trouble to make camo kits, and continuelly apply it.
In my experience with a +128 camo mod, and runing through Dath with a group, my camo almost never breaks, but the others I applied it to continuelly break. And thus I have to constantly reapply it to them, and thusly thusly keep A LOT of extra camo kits on hand. To me, this seems much less effective, useful or fun.
Even though the Coor for scout and ranger did tests, that is not the root of the abilities. I want the devs to tell us. They don't have to tell us the exact formula, just how big a difference between the two, and what they feel was supposed to be advantage of using /conceal.
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 06-29-2004 07:29 AM
Seiryuu
Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:18 am
#6
My concern is why would I use /conceal over /maskscent unless I was a master? Until then, coneal is actually inferior because we have to start over from a low skill.
Duplication of skills is bad when a higher-level one starts at a point less than the lower-level one will be at that skill level.
Duplication of skills is bad when a higher-level one starts at a point less than the lower-level one will be at that skill level.
Bartholomew_Roberts
Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:32 am
#7
good point about conceal vs. maskscent. Here's my question about the 2. Theoreticly, is conceal with +10 better than maskscent with +10?
Or, is conceal(when you first gain the ability)better than maskscent at master scout?
Squidwalker
Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:49 am
#8
Seiryuu wrote:
My concern is why would I use /conceal over /maskscent unless I was a master? Until then, coneal is actually inferior because we have to start over from a low skill.
Duplication of skills is bad when a higher-level one starts at a point less than the lower-level one will be at that skill level.
Exactly, but even at master its not really worth it. I'm master and almost never use /conceal on myself. Sooo not worth it compared to a really good mask scent. Especially if it's "not meant" to work on NPC. This is why I want to ask this question.
Seiryuu
Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:42 pm
#9
I fully agree with you Squidwalker. I did see a small bonus at master because I was a Bothan, but usually did not bother because the kits were such a pain to assemble for the tiny amount of benefit. For those without the Bothan bonus though (and frankly I wish it was still maskscent or elsewhere), it is even more pointless throughout all of Warfaring due to this discrepancy.
The one thing that might be in conceal's favor is that TH told us NPCs were not supposed to be included, but we do not know if this came from Green Marine or another dev. I'm beginning to think it was another one since he has been involved with JTL since player cities were finished.
The one thing that might be in conceal's favor is that TH told us NPCs were not supposed to be included, but we do not know if this came from Green Marine or another dev. I'm beginning to think it was another one since he has been involved with JTL since player cities were finished.
Squidwalker
Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:20 pm
#10
Yep, in fact I'm not only Botha, but I have BE clothing and I still don't see enough of a benefit to outweigh gathering resources for and crafting the camo kits.
The addition of the CB, which I support, add another concern. As we all know, with master ranger you only have enough points left for one master elite combat profession. I have pistoleer. I can hardly, if at all, solo a lot of the creatures needed to make the camo kits. On the advanced planets mostly. If I buff up they yea, I can usually get by, but still slowly. But like lots of rangers, I don't use buffs or armor when I'm doing PvE, especially animals. And we should not have to. We should be the ones going out there, with tactics special skills abilities and tools, taking down the big critters solo. But at least able to gather the resourced neede to make our camo kits. And don't tell me I should just group to get them, cause that defeats the purpose.
"Hey guys will you go with me to dath, risking lots of agro I can't help with, just to get resources for my camo kits so we can all come out again with less risk of ago."
The combat balance is going to make us even less efficient at killing animals. Because its going to make everyone less effifienct at killing everything. So if I can barely, if at all, solo critters now needed for camo kits, how am I supposed to do this after the CB? This just bring us back to where is our revamp? But that's a different discussion.
Squidwalker
Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:49 am
#11
/bump
what do others think about this question in general? Any other ideas for our next question? Lets not be like the BH that "never" discuss what they are going to ask at all. The coor sends in what ever he wants, and thats it.
Cambylobacter
Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:23 am
#12
The Ranger skills are a cause of concern for many of the order, and Master Rangers are leaving sadly too often.
The Ranger traps are not befitting of "elite traps", Camping is largely weak, Rescue is largely impractical, Conceal is largely useless when compared to Mask Scent, Tracking fails to work as intended bearing in mind most creatures don't spawn till you are within 50 metres of them, or someone else has already found them, and Harvesting is not significantly better than a Scout.
It would be believed that Rangers would not be getting a revamp in 2004, and whether we are anticipating anything in 2005 is unknown.
Bearing this in mind, may we :
- Receive a revamp in the next profession revamp schedule
- Receive a boost for the interim period, of a harvesting boost
- Ask you to read The Outdoorsman proposal for ideas of how the Ranger community see the vision of their profession
Well it's an alternative. I'm just convinced we're not going to get a look-in till at least 2005 
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