Ranger Archive
Thread: Hybrid Elite Prerequisite Schema
Squad Leader -- 0004 Marksman (Ranged Support IV) + 0004 Scout (Survival IV)
Ranger -- 0040 Marksman (Carbines IV) + 4000 Scout (Exploration IV)
Bounty Hunter -- 0004 Marksman (Ranged Support IV) + 4000 Scout (Exploration IV)
*Commando -- 0004 Marksman (Ranged Support IV) + 0400 Scout (Trapping IV)
*Smuggler -- 0400 Marksman (Pistols IV) + 0004 Scout (Survival IV)
I have done the number-crunching. If you look at the schema I have outlined closely, you can see where this falls in line with everything that the development team has been putting into place since the Combat Upgrade. The only two hybrid elites that get funneled into a particular Marksman elite are Smuggler and Ranger, which is Pistoleer and Carbineer respectively. The rest are appropriately differentiated. Also, by removing Brawler prerequisites from Commando and Smuggler, it lightens the load and problems of making these classes viable for both melee and ranged combat - instead focusing on ranged combat, which has the added bonus of being more in line with the "Star Wars" theme. In addition being able to switch between melee and ranged absolutely adds nothing to the game and obviously to be effective most players will specialize in one or the other. Hence hybrid elites who encompass both are something that should have been left behind with the Combat Upgrade.
The schema was drafted to offer a balanced system of template customization that is in line with the current Combat Upgrade engine. There are also particularly thematic template possibilities within this schema, such as any combination of Smuggler and Squad Leader (Han Solo and Lando Calrissian), Commando and Bounty Hunter (Boba Fett), Ranger and Bounty Hunter (Zam Wessel), Commando and Squad Leader (ARC Trooper), etc.
Please provide feedback here. No schema will satisfy everyone's desire. The new prerequisites for Ranger are not exactly the most popular around here. The key point is that Ranger is no longer a Scout Elite, not anymore than Bounty Hunter is. Ranger and Scout must be disassociated. To continue the Pre-Revamp Ranger playstyle, one simply must have Master Scout and hence will have an additional 63 skill points to play with, in addition to not having to take up the Carbines IV line. One must also consider that under the planned Ranger Revamp, attempting to be a Master Rifleman, Master Ranger is akin to attempt to be a Master Rifleman, Master Smuggler. You lose SP in the translation. To continue your playstyle Pre-Revamp, you simply go Master Scout, Master Rifleman.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 05:47 PM
Why in the world would Commando have a pre-req of Trapping IV? The only 2 professions in the game that will have ANY concept of "trapping" anything are Scout (creature only traps) and Ranger (so far humanoid only, but hopefully able to be used in all types of combat with the revamp). If anything, I think the arguement posed in several threads here to tie Ranger to Trapping IV / RSIV hasa lot more merit than giving that to Commando (if they even get revamped that way).
You're also assuming that Smuggler and Commando pre-reqs will change. The big difference is that Ranger is, in this case, as you point out, essentially being redesigned from the ground out. Gutted and rebuilt like an old house, with only the exterior walls and maybe one or two load bearing walls staying where there were to give it it's basic overall shape. I don't see the Devs doing the same for commando or smuggler, given that both of those professions have a role and purpose in the game, they just lack missions to fulfill the role (Smuggler) or have broken weapons that don't let them fulfill the role (Commando).
I would hope that the devs would be more likely to consider the Trapping IV / RSIV option for Ranger than make the changes above (my opinion only). And to be honest, I'd love to see Smuggler be able to move away from being forced into a specific weapon line as well. As you yourself pointed out in another thread, simply because one thing is screwed up, doesn't mean that THAT should justify screwing up a bunch more stuff. There are MANY ways to look at what kind of role and weapon a special operations solider might fulfill and might use - pigeonholing a profession into one weapon type doesn't make sense and hurts diversity in the game a lot.
Finally, PLEASE stop trying to use the "if you don't like it, drop Ranger and be a pre-revamp Ranger as Master Scout then keep your current playstyle" argeument. As I've already pointed out previously, there are those of us who are actually trying our best to present logical arguements for profession requirements that do as much as possible to promote diversity and cause the least "harm" to the small but dedicated group of Rangers that have stuck with this profession thru thick and thin. It's likely that there is not going to be a "perfect" solution that makes all ranged AND melee AND doc rangers happy - but I'm darn sure going to try my hardest to see that ALL points of view are represented, and the best possible suggestions and ideas that allow for the most template diversity for ALL rangers, are put forth to the devs. And I'll do it right along guys like Phenix, Rolfie, DaveG, Nemo, WildBill and many others debating the pros and cons of all the many possible requirements suggested here. Ranger may in fact end up not being a Scout Elite - but that is not written in stone as of yet, and it is a FUNDAMENTAL change to our profession which HAS been a Scout Elite for 2+ years now. I'd like to think that you might take offense if BH was suddenly required to pick up Trapping IV (
and lost Exploration IV) or a line of Medic that did NOT lead to CM as a requirement, as that would be a pretty fundamental change to your template. That's what's happening here. And there's little reason for us to just roll over and die on this, when the best justifications we've heardfor making carbines a requirement to date are an off the cuff "well, special ops troops in the real world use carbines" comment from TH (yeah, they use carbines.. .and pistols... and rifles... and IEDs... and knives... and their fists... and a whole bunch of other things too) as well as some comment Calc or Owen mentioned coming from the Corr forum to the effect of it being a UI issue with "too many professions already using RSIV" or something equally silly.
I'd assume if we DO get tied to Carbines, we get treated exactly like Smugglers and other hybrids - we should have specials that work with and enhance our carbines (beyond our traps, which will only work outside cities, which SEVERLY limits their effectiveness), we should get speed and accuracy mods, and we should be getting 1 or 2 Ranger only weapons, probably certed at novice and master. We can't be "charged SP" as a hybrid for balance, then be treated like the same gimped, combat limited, no actualy skills in combat elite profession that Ranger has been for 2 years now - and that's exactly where we sit today, until and unless we hear different from Helios or any other Dev.
I'll answer the first part.
You can read the description of Trapping IV: The Scout of this level designs traps which are the envy of the military.
It may be a somewhat ambiguous justification, but so is Survival IV for Squad Leader, or Exploration IV for Bounty Hunter. I am not talking about real "roleplaying" reasons here.
If anything, Trapping IV is akin to throwing Commando grenades, in a way, and perhaps during the Commando Revamp they will get enhanced grenades and even traps.
As to Master Scout being the new Master Ranger - I'm sorry, but that's just way it's going to be. Logical debate about how... err, well, not quite sure what your logic is. I'm not taking a qualitative stance here. Either way it's not good, and not bad. It just is the way it is. Seriously, those who are "dedicated" to the Ranger profession of today, should consider keeping Master Scout when the revamp happens. By doing so, you are *still* the same character as before with 63 new SP to play with. With the Ranger you know today becoming the Master Scout, and the new-fangled Ranger becoming something more akin to Bounty Hunter, I'm sorry but there is no logical argument against the changes. It would be like asking for Bounty Hunter to be included ontop of Master Ranger (in its current Pre-Revamp incarnation), if you think about it.Just like withplaying ANY of thehybrid elites, as Ranger is slated to become, you have to make certain choices and those choices are dictated by the prereqs. It would be unfair to allow the new hybrid elite Ranger to have more SP than any of the other hybrid elites, hence, one line of prereq _must_ come from outside of the Scout tree.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 06:57 PM
I never said Brawler was useless. Please read posts before replying to them.
Brawler is useless, however, for Smuggler, unless they give the Smuggler profession related specials to use with it.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 09:37 PM
MohdriDarkstar wrote:
I never said Brawler was useless. Please read posts before replying to them.
Brawler is useless, however, for Smuggler, unless they give the Smuggler profession related specials to use with it.
Additionally, no, having two lines in Scout is not really viable. Simply because all other hybrid elites have an SP sink that requires 58 SP. If there were just two lines of Scout required for Ranger, your SP sink would only be 43 SP. They would have to gimp up Ranger a bit then to be fair.
Plus, I think their design concept is a ranged combat elite profession, pure and simple. We'll see what happens.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 09:37 PM
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-29-2005 07:53 PM
Rolfie - Another guy who didn't read before posting.
I agree with you, my point exactly, this was never a whine.
You seriously didn't read what I posted or read the discussion here before posting.
Awesome. Thank you. Please come again.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 10:58 PM
Armourboy wrote:
Still think it should be 0004 in ranged and 0400 in scout. Anything else seems ludicrous to me, especially considering I've spent millions of credits on my rifle collection, to be forced into going carbines
Interesting and viable, IMHO. Good idea for an alternative.
MohdriDarkstar wrote:
Rolfie - Another guy who didn't read before posting.
I agree with you, my point exactly, this was never a whine.
You seriously didn't read what I posted or read the discussion here before posting.
Awesome. Thank you. Please come again.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 10:58 PM
You know actually I did read the post and thread. If you had bothered to read what I was replying to. Which was just that one quoted post of yours youwould have understood I agreed with your intial post. So I suggest you follow your own advice and read andthink before you make some knee jerk response next time.
Maintaining Ranger as an elite profession gimps Ranger but not for your stated reasons. You sir were wrong in your assumption for why Ranger would be gimped. So reread my post and try to be civilized next time. I was explaining why Ranger would be gimped your stated reasons were simply wrong and not factual.
MohdriDarkstar wrote:
Armourboy wrote:
Still think it should be 0004 in ranged and 0400 in scout. Anything else seems ludicrous to me, especially considering I've spent millions of credits on my rifle collection, to be forced into going carbines
Interesting and viable, IMHO. Good idea for an alternative.
Please take Rolfie's advice in the post above and read all the posts you're replying to.
Don't preach to me about reading posts, because I do read them. Because I fail to find merit in revamping everyone's prereq's just because ours are changing doesn't make my opinions less valid. Ive been here just as long as 99% of the people in here and I dont appreciate someone telling me that Im wrong over something that has yet to be verified at all. Even in the HoC chat it was mentioned as being leaned towards, not absolutely certain. We still have a chance to make a hybrid that makes sense.
MohdriDarkstar wrote:
I never said Brawler was useless. Please read posts before replying to them.
You didn't have to say it, the proof is in the pudding so to speak... how many professions are you suggesting be hybridized with brawler? none? there you go.
Brawler is useless, however, for Smuggler, unless they give the Smuggler profession related specials to use with it.
Balrozgul wrote: Ill agree that any hybrid which relies on brawler should be able to make use of it in some way or another, advanced versions of melee actions like pistol whip for instance. Please note that this statement occured before you made a rebuttal, thereby making your rebuttal useless. Please read posts before replying to them.
Additionally, no, having two lines in Scout is not really viable. Simply because all other hybrid elites have an SP sink that requires 58 SP. If there were just two lines of Scout required for Ranger, your SP sink would only be 43 SP. They would have to gimp up Ranger a bit then to be fair.
To anyone doing the math, 4400 scout (elite) is in fact MORE of a sink than0004marks/0400scout (hybrid). Why? Because you'd have almost no lines of potential duplication with other professions. We'd become the equivilant of doctors in that respect, and I thinkthat fact isthe only reason why it is still a consideration at this point. Hybridization is a good thing, but in fact only in cases where we have options to consider still. I know a lot of people would say: what about unarmed for smuggler/commando? They have still two choices to consider, TK or fencer, whereas if they made it carbines4 we'd have only one choice, carbines.
Plus, I think their design concept is a ranged combat elite profession, pure and simple. We'll see what happens.
I agree that I think hybridization will happen, hence:
Balrozgul wrote: at this point all Im hoping for is a move to 0004marksman and 0400scout.
Again, note how this occurred BEFORE this:
MohdriDarkstar wrote:
Armourboy wrote:
Still think it should be 0004 in ranged and 0400 in scout. Anything else seems ludicrous to me, especially considering I've spent millions of credits on my rifle collection, to be forced into going carbines
Interesting and viable, IMHO. Good idea for an alternative.
Message Edited by MohdriDarkstar on 09-29-2005 09:37 PM
Okay gents. Here's where I normally step in and defend the melee guys. But we all know how I feel about that and we all know the arguments pertaining to that (if you don't, check the other pre-req discussion threads) so let's skip that part and I'll discuss new things.
On a conceptual level, I wouldn't mind putting Smuggler or Commando into Scout pre-reqs, though I think it would lead to a lot of FOTM professions and further hurt the melee guys.I myself actually asked the Commandos if they'd like to change the pre-reqs to trapping, they didn't seem to excited.But, I digress. In the end, I think having every hybrid be a scout/ranged profession one takes a lot of stuff away from melee people. TKM/Commando is a viable template and we'd be taking away from them. Why should every hybrid be a scout/marksman hybrid?
Back to the more current discussion of Ranger pre-reqs (again, I'll avoid discussing the melee Rangers) IF we are to become a hybrid and if that hybrid is going to be scout/marksman based, then the pre-reqs should be trapping IV and RS IV, in my opinion. It makes the most sense and it opens up the most option. As to whether or not we should become a hybrid-- well, there are reasonable arguments on both sides, and it really comes down to a personal choice which one you favor. Both are logical and both are valid, so there's no "wrong" answer.