Ranger Archive

OK, it's no secret that the Ranger Community is heavily discussing this topic with a great deal of emotion pointed towards both sides of the argument. I will begin by saying that I don't think this is a good idea for one main reason. It has always been our hope to see Camoflauge turn into our primary defining skill. Camoflauge has been the skill we were hoping would define our role in combat and in group behaviour.

Despite those hopes, and numerous posts suggesting alterations and advancments in the skillset, the Dev's have opted to spread that skill among all players by allowing people to use the kits without any certification. Most Rangers will agree they are not crafters. The only Factory I run produces traps. I can also tell you that Camoflauge is far from a good answer to this problem because currently, even with the Ranger mods in place, a Master Ranger has little success using the skill. It's not like slicing where you always see some result. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. A 1k meter walk can result in using full high charge kits on some days, and 1 singe charge on others. There is no rational for it... it's just the way things are.

With the Current change to the Aggro system I began to think there was a much better way to go about this. By dipping into the old system of CL damage mitigation and applying it to groups Crafters of any CL can benefit greatly.

Now. My suggestion returns to the idea of droids, NPC, and player body guards. Something that is much more Star Warsy than Camo Kits.

Here we Go:

1. Withdraw the current Camoflauge proposal / idea.


2. Create NPC Body Guard "vendors" throughout the galaxy which sell Neutral (or Jabba, Valarian, Nym etc factioned) NPCs.


3. Update the droid system to allow players access to higher level Droids.


4. Allow the Group CL Combat mitigation to work for Artisans such that high level NPCs or Droids increase the Artisans CL via the group allowing them to recieve mitigated damage. An artisan grouped with a CL 70 Creature would then be treated as though their CL were 70 thus preventing them from getting incapped with one hit from high level mobs.

With the change to aggro and con coming then group CLs will make it less likely for an Artisan to get aggro'd by anything that is of a lower CL. By grouping with high level Droids or NPC body guards the player recieves access to the benefit of this new aspect to the con system as well as damage mitigation based on group CL.

Doesn't that make a bit more sense ... and isn't it a bit mroe Star Warsy? Obi-Wan and Luke didn't go buy Camo to get off Tatooine, they hired a Smuggler to fly them off world and protect them. If we can't generate enough incentive to get players to do this than the next best thing is to create system based solutions which pick up the slack.

This is a draft of something I'd like to post in the Artisan and Core Systems Forums but I figured I'd run it by you folks first. Let me know what you think.

I like it.

Just for clarification though. Are you suggesting that ALL the high level droids/bodyguards come from NPC vendors? I can see where that suggestion would have the droid engineers up in arms.

• Whenthe crafterpurchases the guard or guards, up to a maximum offive I would say,the craftershould be able to give them a waypoint of where it is they need to escort the crafter to.


• The guards would slowly make their way towards this destination, while the crafter stays behind them and the guards take aggro first.


• The crafter could instruct them on whether they should surround or form a V shape while en route to the waypoint.


• The cost would be determined per body guard, and the duration that they would stay with the crafter would need to be either a set amount of time for a set rate, or a varying amount of time with a rate per increment of time up to a set maximum.


• There would be no need for control devices, because they would be temporary at best.


• Perhaps there could be varying types of npcs, including types of droids and ranged / melee professions, although I doubt that melee would be as favored as ranged.

Let me expand on the reasons why I like this idea.

1. Nodrastic change to the system, means that we wouldn't have to wait for some far off revamp.

2. Since this solution involves crafting, from professions designed around being crafters, it would be a show of good faith after the CU and expansion.

3. Even though I hate to say it. This solution would be far more effective than the camo idea, due to just the random chance that the camo would break.

The only thing that I have to add is this. I am (in case you can't tell) a big proponent to the "player crafted should always be better than NPC bought" crowd. I didn't mind the legendary rare weapon drops from certain spawns, besides the fact that this always leaves to that spawn being camped. I didn't mind that, because the drops were always rare. So here is my little piece to add to this:

*NPC neutral bodyguards should be capped at a CL of 50*

This would make the bodyguards effective on the low level planets. For the high level planets, though, you would need a player crafted droid.

I mostly like it, although I have a few comments. I'm not planning to put any organization into the list so sorry if it is semi disjointed. Some of them will also be completely stupid.

My main worry is that this comes very close to completely undermining the CH profession. Giving players really strong pets potentially protects our skills but could easily steal one of theirs. I'd highly recommend you ask the CHs for an opinion on how you could implement something like this without them feeling like they are losing more of their profession.

When you put the proposal in the artisan forums, remind them that creatures are more likely to agro instantly if camo breaks (even if you are outside their normal agro range) and that it breaks reasonably often.

Non CH pets should be stealing xp and kill rights in the coming patch (i.e. you can't use these to farm).

I'd highly recommend making these one use or extremely limited use items. You can get a higher CL pet but it will be one use and expensive.

The pet should only know the group command. The pet will automatically be put on guard and so will only be able to defend the crafter.

Rebel and Imperial faction pets could also be included in the list. It is hard for a pure crafter to get FP, though.

Going well above 15-20 CL would probably strike a big blow to the CH profession. But, even 15-20 CL is quite a bit for crafters. It might not let them get resources from Dathomir but I doubt these camo kits will either. Just allowing current pets to add CL to the group and adding a few NPC crime vendors might be enough. This should allow crafters to get resources from the starter planets relatively easily, have a bit more trouble on the mid level planets, and probably need a PC group on the adventure planets.

I think I'm going to make another post after this one, making a suggestion for what I think would work for the crafters without giving away too many skills.

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Nemo0 wrote:
I mostly like it, although I have a few comments. I'm not planning to put any organization into the list so sorry if it is semi disjointed. Some of them will also be completely stupid.

My main worry is that this comes very close to completely undermining the CH profession. Giving players really strong pets potentially protects our skills but could easily steal one of theirs. I'd highly recommend you ask the CHs for an opinion on how you could implement something like this without them feeling like they are losing more of their profession.

I'm not sure that it necessarily would and here's why. First, players can already have pets in the form of Faction Troopers and Droids. They are less versatile than Pets because they aren't really trainable beyond basic commands. You can only call one, and (with the exception of droids) they are temporary. Once they die... they're dead. Droids also require Batteries and repair kits making them more costly than pets. Finally, they can only really call one at a time.

When you put the proposal in the artisan forums, remind them that creatures are more likely to agro instantly if camo breaks (even if you are outside their normal agro range) and that it breaks reasonably often.

A very good point that seems to constantly get glossed over by proponents of this change.

Non CH pets should be stealing xp and kill rights in the coming patch (i.e. you can't use these to farm).

EXCELLENT idea.

I'd highly recommend making these one use or extremely limited use items. You can get a higher CL pet but it will be one use and expensive.

With the Droids and NPCs I kind of address that above. Once their dead, their dead ... or ... you need alot to keep them running smoothly.

The pet should only know the group command. The pet will automatically be put on guard and so will only be able to defend the crafter.

This touches on my original idea for the BodyGuard but does it in a way I couldn't really articulate. I agree that the NPC should auto defend, I say let it attack though ... but remember that the artisan will really need to flee if the pet is attacking because they can't defend themselve. It might make sense to have the group auto-disband on incap of the Pet removing any CL mitigations that might exist.

Rebel and Imperial faction pets could also be included in the list. It is hard for a pure crafter to get FP, though.

I said neutral just because I was thinking the average artisan wouldn't want a BodyGuard that chased after or got chased by Galactic Civil War NPCs. I think you also need to be declared in order to weild them ... something a crafter would want to avoid when wandering anywhere if they're concerned about combat.

Going well above 15-20 CL would probably strike a big blow to the CH profession. But, even 15-20 CL is quite a bit for crafters. It might not let them get resources from Dathomir but I doubt these camo kits will either. Just allowing current pets to add CL to the group and adding a few NPC crime vendors might be enough. This should allow crafters to get resources from the starter planets relatively easily, have a bit more trouble on the mid level planets, and probably need a PC group on the adventure planets.

For NPCs I'd cap them at around 50ish because that would be the CL of a single combat mastery. For Droids there would need to be a balance between Damage Taking and Damage Dealing. You're BodyGuard is not a hired thug. It should be a Shield. As a result crafters would want the Droid to be able to take damge while they escape. It's not like CHs who use pets as damage dealers, its Crafters who need someone to sacrifice themselves such that the crafter can get to safety.

I think I'm going to make another post after this one, making a suggestion for what I think would work for the crafters without giving away too many skills.

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OK, here is my suggestion for implementing crafter security without giving away too many skills.

I will preface this by saying that I believe that a players power should be defined by the skills they have and the resources (credits, meat, iron, etc) that they have used to enhance themselves. So I don't agree that allowing anyone to use a camo kit is a bad idea but I do think that it should be at a very low level of effectiveness (maybe on par with maskscent when you first get it--remember that this also means quite a bit of downtime when it breaks). As an example, look at player stims. Using generic stims, I can heal quite a bit of damage but it will have a long timer and a relatively high resource cost. Someone spending skill points in a medical profession can heal better, faster, and largely for free (enhancers are not essential for this but they are useful--but that becomes skill points + resources so it should give a bonus).

I think that three different things should be available for crafter security:
1. Allow pets to increase the group level.
2. Allow crafters to use a weak form of camo.
3. Give crafters some form of armor cert.

1:
Current pet levels (10-20ish for most non CH pets) are probably high enough that a crafter could survive most low level planets (even with bodyguards, they are likely to still ride on a swoop if only for the escape speed but this would greatly reduce the damage they would take). They are currently available in three ways (CH trained, DE built, Faction purchased). Adding an option to purchase them from NPCs is not necessary but would be somewhat cool (I would recommend that these are on the low end of pet levels, though--you go to a crafter/tamer to get the better pets). Slightly increasing non-CH and DE pet levels could also possibly be done. A large part of this is allowing the crafters some chance of clearing out the targets near their harvesters/factories/etc on lower level planets. Increasing pet caps might also help here.

2:
A weak form of camo should allow the crafters to avoid some combat. While they will still probably be attacked quite a bit, this has it's main use in letting them try to access harvesters and such without needing to first clear the area around it (i.e. let them save some time). Maybe increasing camo's effectiveness while crawling would work well here? Remember that you can't really do much of anything while you are being attacked.

3:
Currently, a crafter wearing a PSG is just as dead as a crafter with nothing at all on. Maybe add some form of non combat armor with no cert? It could have something like 100% hindrances to everything (probably with a seperate type so that no mitigation could apply) with quite high resists (probably 80-90% would actually be reasonable). They won't be able to do anything in this armor but ride around on their swoop. And there is no chance of them tanking in it as they won't be able to manage hate. They would be spam in the ultimate can.

Admittedly, a lot of the problem goes away without the CL damage modifiers.

My worry with CH is that they spend quite a few skill points to gain the ability to control powerful pets. I don't know exactly how they would react to giving players more powerful pets but I would highly recommend you ask them before you do much else with it. They might even be able to use this to get the group CL change to work both ways for pets (i.e. a grouped CL 60 pet can be CL 80, which I don't think currently works). But ask them what they think before moving too far with this. Pets are their profession right now. And remember that their pets only go up to CL 70 right now (although the fact that they can hit 70 is probably also part of the reason pet levels don't count in group calculations--single mastery is not meant to be CL 70).

Nice ideas Bill! Here are some of my thoughts:

1)Make these droids only. The look would be like IG-88 or battle droids from the prequels. They would be purchased from DE.

2)Make the droids defenders only. They will only attack what attacks their owner.

3)The player gets no xp, no harvest ability and no loot rights for any creature/npc hit even once by a defender droid.

4)The droids will be available at the following levels: 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50.

5)A player (without DE skills) can only have one defender droidout at a time.

6)The droids require batteries just like other droids. However, they cannot be repaired. Once they've been disabled they're done.

7)Calling and grouping with a defender droid will raise the group level to whatever the droid's level is.

8)Players must make a choice on grouping with other players or grouping with their defender droid. If the playergroups with other players the defender droid can't be called. A defender droid must be grouped with its owner in order for it to work. If a player is grouped with a defender droid he/she can't group with another player, pet or faction trooper.

I thought these up fairly fast so not sure if they're viable. In addition, I've never played as a DE or CH so someone with those experiences might want to chime in.