Ranger Archive
Thread: Rangers/Scouts Unite!
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Bardi_Nefartari
Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:50 am
#1
Hey all. I am a hunter, creature harvester and TKM. I have been a resource collector for over a year and I might add its a nice business.
I posted over at the chilastra trade forum, as I am from that server with a little rant about how Docs in particularly set a price for a resource.
I wonder,what other profession gets told what to charge? Certainly none other than Hunter/harvesters-~ Scouts/Rangers.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=chilastra_trade&message.id=143149
Anyway, I dropped the gloves with Ket already. He seems to think I am off base. On the other hand, I think my point is valid, and its about time for the Scouts and Rangers to unite and stand by eachothers collective sides and do some pricing on our own. As if its not in our capabilities.
Anyway, I hope to get some people to support and agree with what I said over there. And maybe some of the people who are desperate to make a quick buck, will think otherwise, and look at this picture as a lesson for future resource pricing.
AgonThalia
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:02 am
#2
There are a few issues with the scout/ ranger uniting bit.
1: Most of the successful resource gatherers are not rangers, they are combat stacked players with scout skills, they kill faster, harvest faster and move on faster. For every 1 critter that I would kill, they kill 8.
2: Server economies vary wildly per server, its not uncommon to see avian or herb meat go for 100-200 cpu on Lowca.
3: Ultimately, price fixing in scouts and rangers would hurt not only us, but the innocent bystanders who have nothing to do with it.
4: If someone tells me that they need 200k of corellian avian meat, I tell them i will get what i can. I prefer the barter system rather than payment. Free buffs, free armor, free stims, free clothes, free willy... you get the idea.
5: This is similar to the some companies charging 2.00$ a gallon during a shortage because they know that they can get away with it.
6: Setting our own prices is not a solution, the solution is to harvest what you want, when you want and sell it to the highest bidder, or give it away to friends for some free karma.
7: The idea of striking/ price fixing/ uniting is not a new theme on the ranger boards... and not once has it gained widespread support.
I appreciate the conviction that you put into this, but i think that your strategy is misplaced.
Nemo0
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:03 am
#3
Hmm, well, I personally think the other professions pay way too much. Yes, dropping the cost of organics will hurt us (unless we get that large harvesting increase that we've asked for for so long) and it probably won't cause stuff to become much cheaper (Crafters like their profit margins). As it is now, crafters pay the minimum amount they can to get the resources they want/need. They will always start as low as they reasonably can. If they don't think that they will get enough to satisfy them, they raise the price. If they get enough at the lower price then they drop the price (or remove the contract). If you money, you need to find someone willing to give it to you for your services. If you don't think you get enough as a Ranger then try crafting or running missions.
Bardi_Nefartari
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:30 am
#4
I am really not looking for every server to use the same price. We all have our differnet galaxies, therefore the prices will be different.
I only look for some standards. When someone is buying meat for 30, then another 40, and someone wants more so they offer 50. The meat will be sold for 50! Except the karma meat, we all do that I am sure.
The point again is I am tired of people telling us what they are paying, where we should be telling them what the cost is. On this particular spawn, a guildmate of mine is willing to match ALL offers just to keep the meat in the family. I am not going to drive up the price for that,I am probably going to give him the stuff or a piece of it for free.
Most professions do not move their prices up and down unless they are competing with eachother- chef Vs chef, Doc Vs Doc. Its just not good business practice.
Its fine to offer something at a good price, we all have friends. But when the public is telling you what they are paying, they are most definately willing to pay more as the price calls for it. Anyway, I know I am losing this battle. Its one that I conceded when I submitted the original post. I just wanted to throw it out there, so that the public can see who is driving OUR economy- who is gaining from it. Its time to slap that hammer down and stand by eachother. /rant :]
Phenix1050
Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:48 am
#5
supply and demand is the basic law of economics. If a doc with 100million wants to buy 2/3 of the market share of a particular resource, he's gonna do it, and he'll pay more CPU since he has the fiscal clout and guarenteed return that he seeks.
Setting prices will only lead to individuals crossing over and selling at lower cpu since they'll be the sole seller. If you try to price-fix there are millions of credits that YOU are gonna lose.
Nobody says you have to sell at a low price. If you don't think it's fair...well then don't sell it. But any price-fixing, including that done by other proffessions, is based upon an honor system...a system that will break if people fear losing too much money. In the end, it's the consumers' choice whether they buy or not. You can't force them to pay something that they won't, in the same way that they can't force you to sell for less money.
I assure you, you can make plenty selling for low cpu. But don't try and control the market or force high prices. I sell very cheap to friends. It seems like you do too. You can't have double-standards if you want to have a set price. You'd either have to charge everyone the same (including friends) or the system breaks down. If you give or sell cheap to your friends, who's to say that somebody with 100k of good meat isn't "friends" with that master doc who's willing to buy it all? See the problem? I'd rather let each person decide for themselves, and let everyone work out business on their own. This is not the Ranger cartel. You want price fixing, go talk to the smugglers (note: I am not actually insulting smugglers, or saying they price-fix...I'm just saying it would be something a crook would do, and in-game smugglers are basically the crooks)
Don_T_Shoot
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:09 am
#6
Generally, you see offers to buy a meat/hide while it's spawning and sometimes right after. That's when the crafters are setting their asking prices. If you think their asking price is too low, then don't sell it to them. It's a simple as that, they aren't forcing you to sell it.
Now the trick is to figure out how long to sit on your supply and then offer it for sale at your price well after the resource is no longer available. Of course, one of the reasons the crafters are trying to get huge sums if for factory runs so if you don't have large amount this might not work so well.
There may be a flaw in my thinking here but it seems like a better option than just caving in.
I say all this but again, it only makes sense to sit on your haul if their price is not worth your time in your opinion. I can't say that I've had that problem on Ahazi, the offers generally seem to be worth it and I'm only Scout 3030 (with Doshan bonuses effectively 3040).
Now the trick is to figure out how long to sit on your supply and then offer it for sale at your price well after the resource is no longer available. Of course, one of the reasons the crafters are trying to get huge sums if for factory runs so if you don't have large amount this might not work so well.
There may be a flaw in my thinking here but it seems like a better option than just caving in.
I say all this but again, it only makes sense to sit on your haul if their price is not worth your time in your opinion. I can't say that I've had that problem on Ahazi, the offers generally seem to be worth it and I'm only Scout 3030 (with Doshan bonuses effectively 3040).
darmokVtS
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:23 am
#7
AgonThalia wrote:1: Most of the successful resource gatherers are not rangers, they are combat stacked players with scout skills, they kill faster, harvest faster and move on faster. For every 1 critter that I would kill, they kill 8.
One day I probably get a real explanation to this. Well lets try again, maybe this time someone finally answers
: Why exactly do you think (example) the average fotm rifleman/fencer stacker can kill a creature faster than a rifleman/ranger (given the same circumstances, buffs, armor, rifles, skillattachments etc)?
Phenix1050
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:31 am
#8
generally, it isn't the combat stacking rifleman. Rifleman are capped at speed and guns can only do so much damage. Thus at Range, you're limited. However, melee stackers are able to kill things faster because:
They don't get hit as often. That means that they heal less and they are less likely to get knocked over. Getting KD'd slows down the kill time. Having states applied to you does as well. In addition, your average combat stacker spends a bunch on the best buffs/armor and weapons, meaning that they are able to buy weapons that are very good (such as the exceptional T-21 that someone showed a link to on the Smuggler boards...something like 1700 max damage and after slice a 7.1 speed.) so they can do more DPS than other weapons.
In addition, combat stackers have the widest selection of damage types, since a TKA has 0 stun, but a fencer does, and if you get a TKA/Fencer/Swordsman, they have access to a HUGE range of damage types and they get hit infrequently.
In the end, proffessions that are speed-capped end up with a limited DPS, but stackers can buy better weapons. In addtion, they spend less time recovering and can stay in the fight longer. A TKA/Ranger, though is only slightly slower than a TKA/Fencer when it comes to killing a creature with low kinetic resists.
Bardi_Nefartari
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:38 am
#9
I dont know about all that. All I do know is that with my decent ranger skills and master scout, I can harvest ALOT more than the novice scout does. A TK/Sword/Fencer whatever combo is very limited to the scout skills.
He cant harvest nearly as much as I do in the same time. Even if he kills a little faster.
AgonThalia
Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:45 am
#10
Bardi_Nefartari wrote:
I dont know about all that. All I do know is that with my decent ranger skills and master scout, I can harvest ALOT more than the novice scout does. A TK/Sword/Fencer whatever combo is very limited to the scout skills.
He cant harvest nearly as much as I do in the same time. Even if he kills a little faster.
When the combat stacker/ novice scout is solo, they can tear through mobs of the big critters. My friend did that and he wiped out a natural lair of enraged rancor, over 12 critters spawning, in less than 2 minutes.
Next, as a master ranger, pikmeman, I did the same thing in about 6 minutes. by that time he had gone to another lair and did the same thing. In a 1 hour period of this experiment, he ended up with more resources than I had.
master rangers get 2x the harvest of novice scout, and in the end, collecting resources is more about speed and dmg, than a harvesting rating.
So while we can harvest more units per capita, they get more kills in the same amount of time. Basically, for every1 i killed, he had killed 5. In the same amount of time.
darmokVtS
Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:24 am
#11
Phenix1050 wrote:generally, it isn't the combat stacking rifleman. Rifleman are capped at speed and guns can only do so much damage. Thus at Range, you're limited. However, melee stackers are able to kill things faster because:They don't get hit as often. That means that they heal less and they are less likely to get knocked over.
Ok, then we compare melee stackers vs a melee ranger?
(all below should be seen with ressource hunting in mind, it does not necessarily apply to krayt killing or other high end creatures like the gorax
)No creature worth hunting for it's ressources in this game is able to even barely scratch a buffed & armored Master Ranger / Master Swordsman at the current state of the game (what will happen after the combat revamp is nothing but speculation and as such IMHO not worth to look at for a discussion like this).
I *rarely* get kd'ed (when fighting things that tend to kd often I use Thaktiwhatever, the kd defense food, not even a Peko Peko Albatross which is merely spamming kd moves is able to kd me often with good Thaktiwhatever
)
Phenix1050 wrote:
In addition, your average combat stacker spends a bunch on the best buffs/armor and weapons, meaning that they are able to buy weapons that are very good (such as the exceptional T-21 that someone showed a link to on the Smuggler boards...something like 1700 max damage and after slice a 7.1 speed.) so they can do more DPS than other weapons.
It's a matter of choice if you get high end equipment or not, not a matter of the template (And the usual saying is that it is a question of the template, which is IMHO untrue
). And btw, noone in his right mind uses a 1700 damage t21 (which is btw by far a 'common' weapon even among those that do not settle for anything but the best) for creature hunting, the condition hits a weapon takes from firing is directly tied to the damage dealt, such a thing is wasted after a few days of creature hunting. Krayted T21's also are something nearly noone uses or even owns, 11 identical krayt tissues drop very, very seldom and chances are too high that a bad or even 'just' ok slice lets you end up with a weapon that is worse than a non-enhanced t21 with a 30%+ damageslice. People make several disruptor rifles or jawas or whatever with such tissues, not a single t21
.
Phenix1050 wrote:In addition, combat stackers have the widest selection of damage types, since a TKA has 0 stun, but a fencer does, and if you get a TKA/Fencer/Swordsman, they have access to a HUGE range of damage types and they get hit infrequently.
'huge'? let's count, kinetic, blast, stun (in future maybe heat if the razor knuckler makes it to live one day). A rifleman alone can have: Energy, acid, stun, heat (4
). And trust me, stundamage of a fencer doesn't help much in creature hunting if you can do kinetic and blast (stun baton is ap0, the dps of fencers even with good acklay stun batons doesn't come remotely close to the dps a ranger/swordsman or a ranger/rifleman can deal (and then add ap2 for the scythe, powerhammer, disruptor rifle etc or even ap3 for the t21 vs ap0 of the gaffi stick or the stun baton).I have played (you maybe recall, I played three chars on eclipse at one point) quite a bunch of templates and I can compare "maxed out" (speedcapped, buffs, high end armor, a variety of foods, high end weapons except the rare exceptionals which are not used on harvestruns anyway) versions of ranger/rifleman, ranger/swordsman and various stacker templates (one char was fotm chaser) from own experience. I also played pikeman / ranger and played a pistoleer for a bit, the first one *can* be a really fast killer but at too high cost to make it worthwhile for hunting, the second one was really disappointing in terms of damage / time (even if speedcapped) and as such 'killing speed' on creatures, defensemods nice and fine, but they are heavily overrated (see above
) in a buffs&armor creature hunting approach, so I left those two (and carbineer due to lack of own experience) out.Results: The "maxed out" swordsman templates (swordsman/ranger which I still play, swordsman/doc, swordsman/fencer/tka defstacker) are/were the fastest creature killer, closely followed by any "maxed out" rifleman including template (there was no noticable difference in killingspeed between the ranger/rifleman and the fotm rifleman/fencer/etc stacker). I usually didn't even switch to a fencer weapon after testing things out, it was in none of my templates worth bothering for PvE (PvP is a different topic ofc
). It's not the stacking making the fotm stackers kill creatures faster than many ranger templates, it's a question of chosing to use "high-end" equipment or not.
So please for the love of god don't say 'The master ranger/master $combat prof kills creatures slower than a fotm-stacker', say "many master rangers kill slower than the fotm-crowd because they CHOSE to be slower with "denying" themselves the same high end equipment the fotm-crowd uses" (I understand the reasons for doing so, however if you compare killing speeds you need to compare them on even terms.
Message Edited by darmokVtS on 09-23-2004 08:29 PM
Calculus_Entropy
Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:52 am
#12
Stackers have 2 things going for them, that a Master Ranger/Master Combat Prof doesn't. They have more defense that results in less down time for them (buffed or not), and therefopre more killing time. They also generally have access to more damage types than we do.
darmokVtS
Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:56 am
#13
AgonThalia wrote:
My friend did that and he wiped out a natural lair of enraged rancor, over 12 critters spawning, in less than 2 minutes.Next, as a master ranger, pikmeman, I did the same thing in about 6 minutes.
That's however not the "fault" of you being ranger, but you being pikeman. But if you throw enough credits on it (speed sea's to cap out on speed - the tka friend of yours is already capped at powertechniques IV for the usually sold vk's and above 100 speed at master and good looted polearms, the crafted ones are very subpar compared to other professions) a Pikeman *can* be great, but as I posted above already, it got too expensive for me to be still worthwhile for creature hunting (cost of looted polearms), however this might be different for your server.Message Edited by darmokVtS on 09-23-2004 09:12 PM
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