Ranger Archive
Thread: Just To Clear Things Up: HTFB
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Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:31 am
#1
Ok guys me and Calchave some news to give your from the dev team:
The HTFB doesn't repel agro in any way and the devs do not intend to change this at this time. The reason behind this is the obvious exploiting potential that any agro repelent would have not just in camp form.
This decision could change if we come up with a viable solution that doesnt allow exploiting of any kind, but the devs have yet to think of a way this can be done.
The devs have said they want to change the description of the HTFB to not hint at agro repelantso this should at least limit the enquiries into why this 'feature' isnt working. This shouldnt stop us suggesting ideas for agro repelant solutions, it should just make us think carefully about exploit potential and create a solution that they devs cant say no to 
I think it's fair to say me and Calc are both happy with the feedback the devs are giving because it shows they have acknowledged the bugs and things we suggest aswel as they have thought about solutions (even if some are unsuccessful), lets hope this feedback continues for the future.
Im going to push for changing the effects of traps (ranger traps) as a buf fix so ill keep you all updated on that front.
Tarnak_Archvold
Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:38 am
#2
Is this the place to suggest alternative way then?
If so, could almost the same effect not be achieved by having everyone inside the camp under a kind of camouflage effect. It would not be any more exploitable then camouflage, and if it were stronger then normal camouflage it would provide a safe haven even in extremely dangerous areas.
If so, could almost the same effect not be achieved by having everyone inside the camp under a kind of camouflage effect. It would not be any more exploitable then camouflage, and if it were stronger then normal camouflage it would provide a safe haven even in extremely dangerous areas.
icarus-uk
Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:00 am
#3
A camping bonus to mask scent or camo perhaps? Anyone "in" the camp has their mask scent of camo boosted to stupidly high levels.
I personally cant see how an HTFB that repels arrgo can be exploited. Are they suggesting we are going to drop a HTFB next to a gorax and happily shoot it?
I personally cant see how an HTFB that repels arrgo can be exploited. Are they suggesting we are going to drop a HTFB next to a gorax and happily shoot it?
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:09 am
#4
Tarnak_Archvold Wrote:
"Is this the place to suggest alternative way then?"
Better place than any, go for it.
Fodder650
Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:13 am
#5
How about an HTFB applies the bonuses of mask scent while your inside of it. This way if someones in combat it wont stop the aggro from charging the base. But if your just sitting there and healing up it would stop everything from seeing you.
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:24 am
#6
Icarus Wrote:
"I personally cant see how an HTFB that repels arrgo can be exploited. Are they suggesting we are going to drop a HTFB next to a gorax and happily shoot it?"
Well think about how you would implement it, something that stops something from agroing you is always going to be an extremely powerfull tool. For example:
Exploit: You sit in camp firing uneffected/unagroed
Counter: If you get into combat, the camp disbands
Exploit: Someone else fights whilst yousit in camp out of combatusing the same techniques
Counter: Making it so camp disbands if group attack
Exploit: You disband group, pop a camp and let friend use camp as exploit (plus group support via camps would become very ineffective heh even more so than now)
Counter: You have to be in group to get repel effect
EFFECT: A rangers group support viability using camps takes a serious hit because it disbands as soon ANYONE gets into combat.
Personally i would rather leave it as it is or think of a new idea like you two suggested than making camps disband if anyone gets into combat.
The camo/mask increase is a great idea, it would hide you essentially, not repel but would provide a safe haven for any camo'd/mask'd player in camp. If this happens i would like the charges of camo increasing though because imagine applying 20 camo to your group just so they can sit in camp safely?......... Ouch.
I think a better solution would be to applya temp camo state to everyone in the camp vacinity called perhaps Camped? Camped state gives some insane camo rating that basically keeps the player safe.
TheCamped statewould disipate as soon as the player leaves the camp or attacks. It would essentially give free super camo to everyone in the camp more or less making them invisible to targets and also wouldnt cost us an arm to provide protection for everyone.It lets youprovide protection to groups whilst sitting around in camp, besides it should be the camp repelling/limiting agro not use whilst in camp.
This idea wouldnt be exploitable because you would loose the camped status as soon as you leave the camp and cannot be applied whilst in combat (no taking agro off yourself). It would provide protection for the group without extra cost to us and enforce the idea of camps being safe wilderness habitiats. The lower
Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 12-18-2004 02:34 PM
Fodder650
Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:12 am
#7
Which was the reason i said mask scent over camo. Because camo also does NPC's which the camp description never mentions. And mask scent is esentially a state instead of camo's being a crafted item. Although i like the idea of a camped state. The hard part with that is to find a way for it to drop the camped state when you leave the camps borders.
In the case of using mask scent or something like its bonus in an HTFB and thinking of it as a way to avoid the costs of crafting conceal for a group. It really wouldnt be that much different because of the costs of the HTFB itself.
In the case of using mask scent or something like its bonus in an HTFB and thinking of it as a way to avoid the costs of crafting conceal for a group. It really wouldnt be that much different because of the costs of the HTFB itself.
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:33 am
#8
Dropping the 'Camped' state:
- Possibly the effect only lasts for short period of time so if you leave the camp the state will only stay with you a minute or so.
- Dont make it a state, just make it like droid bonuses. Sort of like you need to be a certain radius in order to get the benefits (like medical/crafting stations)
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:46 am
#9
Oh i forgot:
In regards to using mask scent. I didnt realy like to idea of using it because people without /mask wouldnt get the bonuses for being in camp. Being safe in camps is not about hiding your scents, its about the CAMP providing safety and if we used mask scent then some people would not get any safety at all. I sort of like the idea that the camp gives you benefits not just amplify what your individual character has because each character is different.
It could work yes but in a group yournukers and healers may not have mask scent so they would be at the most risk when infact it should be those who find the safety of a camp the most beneficial. Any more thoughts on this?
Almagill
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:04 am
#10
O-L said:
The HTFB doesn't repel agro in any way and the devs do not intend to change this at this time. The reason behind this is the obvious exploiting potential that any agro repelent would have not just in camp form.
This decision could change if we come up with a viable solution that doesnt allow exploiting of any kind, but the devs have yet to think of a way this can be done.
* So, fixing the camps to work 'as described' would open up the possibility of an exploit. So we don't get a fix unless we can come up with a viable reason? Even then we might not get a fix as they've got a route to a solution mapped out and any suggested fix would require a rethink. (I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but just repeating what I 'think' is the position).
OK, changing the description so as to not mention agro repellant, thats one solution.
Possible alternatives. Make the camps repel aggro until anyone in camp makes an aggressive attack, then a high % chance of fail on repel, possibly increasing every attack or related to CL. (So, stick it beside Mr Gorax, sit and watch, no prob. Heal up, do you're doings, just don't aggro on him. If you do, you're Gorax Snax as is everyone in your party?
Chances for exploit, none. If any group member attacks an animal / defends them selves against an attack, the games a bogey.
OR
If we're not going to get the fix that I guess most of us have hoped for since the first time we read the description, how about giving us that BF healing, huh?? Go on, buy us off.
OR would that be selling our HTFB too cheap?
The HTFB doesn't repel agro in any way and the devs do not intend to change this at this time. The reason behind this is the obvious exploiting potential that any agro repelent would have not just in camp form.
This decision could change if we come up with a viable solution that doesnt allow exploiting of any kind, but the devs have yet to think of a way this can be done.
* So, fixing the camps to work 'as described' would open up the possibility of an exploit. So we don't get a fix unless we can come up with a viable reason? Even then we might not get a fix as they've got a route to a solution mapped out and any suggested fix would require a rethink. (I may have the wrong end of the stick here, but just repeating what I 'think' is the position).
OK, changing the description so as to not mention agro repellant, thats one solution.
Possible alternatives. Make the camps repel aggro until anyone in camp makes an aggressive attack, then a high % chance of fail on repel, possibly increasing every attack or related to CL. (So, stick it beside Mr Gorax, sit and watch, no prob. Heal up, do you're doings, just don't aggro on him. If you do, you're Gorax Snax as is everyone in your party?
Chances for exploit, none. If any group member attacks an animal / defends them selves against an attack, the games a bogey.
OR
If we're not going to get the fix that I guess most of us have hoped for since the first time we read the description, how about giving us that BF healing, huh?? Go on, buy us off.
OR would that be selling our HTFB too cheap?
JuCat
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:11 am
#11
My questions: Why?
1) Why enhance an aspect of this profession that has been made 99% useless by other game developments. Yes there is the rare occasion that having a camp is some usefull, but only 1 occasion that they are required, mind buffs out in the field. Other than that there are better more effective solutions to any benefits camps could provide.
2) Anything short of a repel aggro functionality or better yet modular campswould be a failure and a waste of development time.
3) Why can't the repel mod be strengently tied to the combat state of the players. ie. any player envoked action remotely tied to combat would drop the repel mod for the player. A Ranger drops a HTFB, aggro's are repel, player initiates combat repel is dropped for that character, and player in a non-combat state heals or in anyway provides assistance to a player in a combat state has the repel mod dropped, including the Ranger that threw the camp. How could this be expoited?
4) Additionally this could be expanded to have a limited GCW impact. ie covert faction members could buff, heal, trade? or other wise assist overt players with out recieving a tef provided that the player that asistance is provided to is not in a combat state.
I'm the first to admit that I'm not good at seeing the exploits in game mechanics because I don't look for them, or think of game mechanic in that light. I rather naively think in terms of usefullness and enjoyment.
Just .02 credits from a long time MRanger that would like to see the professions potential fully realized.
btw, nice to see any kind of info from the devs....
Landorien
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:31 am
#12
Urgh.. now I regret tickling the memory of camp repel.. 
I am however curious if the laser fence graphic will remain in place, and if so will it have another function than cheesy eyecandy, like the nonwaterproof ceiling, the concrete tents and beds and terminalsthat can't be used?
As of right now it's just about 95% useless. The overt requisite stuff, forces you to first find a recruiter. How about using a HTFB terminalto *gasp* phone a recruiter to declare overt and covert with a higher req time to get covert than in the flesh.
Can't be much worse for exploits than the current TEF system, can it?
Currently an entertainer can heal bf whilst inside a house, ANY house, sowhy not in a soothing camp with a crackling cozy fire?
Considering camps is such a thorough piece of our template, there should be lots more to be done in one, a reason to spend a relevant amount of time in one. Having a innate wound healing effect that work slooooowly in one is not what I have in mind though. Imagine if we could use it for stealth.. You use camo on every member of the group, set the camp, which in stealthmode isn't a colossal ugly blister on the landscape, but a structure that to the naked eye looks like a small hill, or an extension of one, and members inside one does not appear on the radar or mapunless a highly skilled(master) ranger happens to get within a certain range. Any hostility from within the structure results in camo failing, and camp reforming into the ugly bulk we all know and love.
Perhapstodays laser fence eye candy, was actually a holofield all along?
Almagill
Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:52 am
#13
The comment about ents healing BF in any house reminded me of something that happened when we were first doing the FS stuff (and swearing blindly that we'd never, ever go down that road as it was 'just another grind').
Myself and a couple of scouts/rangers took our neighbourhood doc, a dancer and a tailor over to the Warren t cammo them up and walk them thru the place. Somewhere along the road to or from (it was a long while back) we got mashed a bit by some beasties and a few folk took damage.
I dropped a base, doc started healing.
The ent walked a bit away, dropped a HOUSE and then called us in to heal BF and get mind buffs.
She figured the 800 credits or so it costs her each time to drop the house was worth it as she always gets really good tips from the rest of the party.
When was the last time you got a tip for putting a camp up, huh? (and I don't mean when you do them for weddings, Mr Chocolate Leezard)
AND it repels aggros!
/sob
Myself and a couple of scouts/rangers took our neighbourhood doc, a dancer and a tailor over to the Warren t cammo them up and walk them thru the place. Somewhere along the road to or from (it was a long while back) we got mashed a bit by some beasties and a few folk took damage.
I dropped a base, doc started healing.
The ent walked a bit away, dropped a HOUSE and then called us in to heal BF and get mind buffs.
She figured the 800 credits or so it costs her each time to drop the house was worth it as she always gets really good tips from the rest of the party.
When was the last time you got a tip for putting a camp up, huh? (and I don't mean when you do them for weddings, Mr Chocolate Leezard)
AND it repels aggros!
/sob
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