Ranger Archive
Thread: Just To Clear Things Up: HTFB
BetrayedTemplar
Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:30 pm
#14
Owen-Lars wrote:
Icarus Wrote:
"I personally cant see how an HTFB that repels arrgo can be exploited. Are they suggesting we are going to drop a HTFB next to a gorax and happily shoot it?"
Well think about how you would implement it, something that stops something from agroing you is always going to be an extremely powerfull tool. For example:
Exploit: You sit in camp firing uneffected/unagroed
Counter: If you get into combat, the camp disbands
Exploit: Someone else fights whilst yousit in camp out of combatusing the same techniques
Counter: Making it so camp disbands if group attack
Exploit: You disband group, pop a camp and let friend use camp as exploit (plus group support via camps would become very ineffective heh even more so than now)
Counter: You have to be in group to get repel effect
EFFECT: A rangers group support viability using camps takes a serious hit because it disbands as soon ANYONE gets into combat.
Personally i would rather leave it as it is or think of a new idea like you two suggested than making camps disband if anyone gets into combat.
The camo/mask increase is a great idea, it would hide you essentially, not repel but would provide a safe haven for any camo'd/mask'd player in camp. If this happens i would like the charges of camo increasing though because imagine applying 20 camo to your group just so they can sit in camp safely?......... Ouch.
I think a better solution would be to applya temp camo state to everyone in the camp vacinity called perhaps Camped? Camped state gives some insane camo rating that basically keeps the player safe.
TheCamped statewould disipate as soon as the player leaves the camp or attacks. It would essentially give free super camo to everyone in the camp more or less making them invisible to targets and also wouldnt cost us an arm to provide protection for everyone.It lets youprovide protection to groups whilst sitting around in camp, besides it should be the camp repelling/limiting agro not use whilst in camp.
This idea wouldnt be exploitable because you would loose the camped status as soon as you leave the camp and cannot be applied whilst in combat (no taking agro off yourself). It would provide protection for the group without extra cost to us and enforce the idea of camps being safe wilderness habitiats. The lower
Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 12-18-2004 02:34 PM
Hmmm, I'm not sure if this is true for group members, but I know when I attack a creature, my camp disbands. Is this not supposed to be happening? Anyway, the high-level auto camo/camping state sounds like a solid idea to me! Seems a little shady to me that the camp description imply the camps prevent agro, and apparently they don't.
And while were talking about HTFBs, maybe we could get the artists/devs to install bug zappers! 
You know, the nice blue, glowing (not to be confused with 'blue glowy') lanterns? Think about it. Sitting back, hurton stalker steaks on the fire, watching pesky flying insects be zapped into oblivion when they fly in to investigate the blue light special! Ah ha ha ha! Sorry, didn't get enough sleep last night. I'll stop now. Thanks.
*mutters to self about damn knats*
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:59 pm
#15
Almagill Wrote:
"So, stick it beside Mr Gorax, sit and watch, no prob. Heal up, do you're doings, just don't aggro on him. If you do, you're Gorax Snax as is everyone in your party?"
The problem i was thinking of that if repelling agro was to be implemented, it wouldnt just be for your party, it would effect anyone who entered the camp (as the current camping systems function). Therefore you could take a friend along, not group with him/her and let them use the camp's relling features as a tool to kill animals.
Im not sure if we are on the same page about repelling agro but the old design didnt just repell agressive creatures around you but any creature attacking you or otherwise so you could run to camp and the thing couldnt get near you. That sort of repelling.
Perhaps if we had a system where all creatures within 150m of the camp are given a repelled state without initiating combat. The repelled creatures would move to a 150m distance from the camp, If ANY playerengages a repelled creature the state is broken and the animal will attack as usual. This would create sort of a safe zone around camps and would repel creatures within that zone to the perimeter.
Perhaps that idea with added camo/mask bonus?
ForceFielding
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:34 pm
#16
All this talk
Why dont they just take out the description of it being repellent instead of talking about doing it?
Same goes for bobcatts on tatooine .. they drop retillian meat .. simple fix .. (other planets have screwed up resources too)
Too many people talking and nothing ever gets done, not even the simple things a 2-year old could do. It's a waste of breathe to even discuss things in this forum (or anywhere) regarding cleaning out the trash in the code (oh but they did nerf "/harvest" and "/harvest milk" .. thanks)
Rancorrider4
Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:49 pm
#17
Owen-Lars wrote:
Ok guys me and Calchave some news to give your from the dev team:
The HTFB doesn't repel agro in any way and the devs do not intend to change this at this time. The reason behind this is the obvious exploiting potential that any agro repelent would have not just in camp form.
This decision could change if we come up with a viable solution that doesnt allow exploiting of any kind, but the devs have yet to think of a way this can be done.
The devs have said they want to change the description of the HTFB to not hint at agro repelantso this should at least limit the enquiries into why this 'feature' isnt working. This shouldnt stop us suggesting ideas for agro repelant solutions, it should just make us think carefully about exploit potential and create a solution that they devs cant say no to
I think it's fair to say me and Calc are both happy with the feedback the devs are giving because it shows they have acknowledged the bugs and things we suggest aswel as they have thought about solutions (even if some are unsuccessful), lets hope this feedback continues for the future.
Im going to push for changing the effects of traps (ranger traps) as a buf fix so ill keep you all updated on that front.
Two words: NOT COOL. Has anyone read the players manual that comes with the box for SWG? It states specifically that camps will repel aggresive creatures. Why did they go through the trouble of advertising this as a "perk" of the profession if they viewed it as an exploit?
Owen: I would respectfully request that you now ask the Dev team what exactly is the point of a camp in Star Wars Galaxies. They're not for calling pets, or vehicles. They're not for the healing modifier, droids took care of that. They do not heal battle fatigue. As long as they have adderssed camps, we need to know what they are for. Thank you sir. Keep up the good work.
shilo2
Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:21 pm
#18
What ticks me off is that Our camps serve no purpose at all...really!!!
They dont repell agro's, the healing buff in basically non existant, theres no BF healing. The roofs dont stop water.
Anyone can just run into a house if they are being attacked, and the agro stops.
Fodder650
Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:19 pm
#19
Ok guys we have an opening here. We have a chance to get something changed with the HTFB. Yes we all know the problems we have with camps. Now is the time to hide the anger and think constuctive. The window of oppurtunity isnt going to last long.
So work together come up with something that can be programmed like the "Camped" state or Mask Scent given by camps. And lets agree on it so Owen can push it forward.
Im just as miserable as you are. But I dont want to miss a chance at getting something because we all got bitchy
So work together come up with something that can be programmed like the "Camped" state or Mask Scent given by camps. And lets agree on it so Owen can push it forward.
Im just as miserable as you are. But I dont want to miss a chance at getting something because we all got bitchy
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:05 pm
#20
Rancorrider4 Wrote:
"Why did they go through the trouble of advertising this as a "perk" of the profession if they viewed it as an exploit?"
Lots of things changed in beta, some things never got updated. Most things such as the agro repellant would of most likely got put on the 'to do' list when they were looking back at ranger but obviously all this went out the window and everyone was shifted to player cities and vehicles. When they were working on it initially i bet all looked good but as they play tested (most likely in beta) they found it was very exploitable so changed it.
Dontbother getting angry about it, that doesn no-one any good, i would rather them put in a repelling system that works than have one that can be exploited. As fodder said lets focus our energies on putting forward an alternative repelling systemthat cannot be exploited such as the many dicussed already and keep the anger forTeam H**Tpants 
Kumakada
Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:16 pm
#21
Doesn't combat abandon the camp anyway, whenever I have a camp out and walk out and are aggro'd I get a message saying the camp has been abandoned due to my combat.
Owen-Lars
Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:23 pm
#22
Oh and another point to consider when thinking about this is the announcement Gordon Walton made recently about swg and its future:
Ill highlight a quote as i was prety excited about it:
"Where these new people will help most is in allowing us to add more content, work on the non-combat professions and get to the galactic civil war enhancements sooner"
Basically the dev team is getting sup'ed up with lots of new people to aid developement of swg but more importantly wont be getting added to the already full CURB team. This mean that bug fixes, gameplay fixes, feature requests and quiet possibly (please please dont hold me to this im only guessing) the ranger revamp will be getting worked on much sooner than it would have before.
Take the announcement how you will but in my eyes this means more devs to "work on non-combat progession" (which means ranger as we are not part of the CU).
Im sure all the Alpha Testers and Calc will back me up when i say we have bled to get ranger attention but fact is the devs are extremely busy right now with CU (something myself and the rest of the alpha team learned the hard way). Calc has been the corr for a long time so he knows what its all about but when the first 5 alpha testers hit the CURB forums we got one hell of a shock and since then have worked hard to get changes pushed.
Changes will be made to ranger, i have no doubt about that butwe are more likely to getthings changed if we work together to push forward ideas and develope very thought out proposals rather than moan and groan.
Just a few thoughts on a cold december night
Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 12-19-2004 01:25 AM
Tarnak_Archvold
Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:30 pm
#23
If go with the camped state, then why not milk it for all its worth and get some more product quality sneaked in to the profession...
Let all camps starting with the militiaperson camp have this effect, but starting very low and growing stronger. Then make it experimental, based on OQ of the resources used. So that a fully experimented HTFB made with top of the line resources would hide us from any creature in the game (not npc's).
If alternative functions to the camped state are needed, or if we need even more benefits, it could be that camps provided more of the benefits that TKA's meditation line does... like curing poison and disease, clearing states and so on (all given enough time was spend in the camp), and if wound healing was speeded up significantly. As well as providing a time bonus to mask sent and conceal applied while inside a camp.
Let all camps starting with the militiaperson camp have this effect, but starting very low and growing stronger. Then make it experimental, based on OQ of the resources used. So that a fully experimented HTFB made with top of the line resources would hide us from any creature in the game (not npc's).
If alternative functions to the camped state are needed, or if we need even more benefits, it could be that camps provided more of the benefits that TKA's meditation line does... like curing poison and disease, clearing states and so on (all given enough time was spend in the camp), and if wound healing was speeded up significantly. As well as providing a time bonus to mask sent and conceal applied while inside a camp.
Rhyeal
Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:37 pm
#24
While we are at it, lets get the Devs to make th HTFB stay up in combat After all, it is a huge concrete structure, why should it disband when in combat? Just make all the bonuses null while in combat, and then reinstated when you exit. Also, make a HTFB stay up until the Ranger leave the planet, and make it give a WP in the Datapad. Really, the HFTB is nicer than a house, lets get what we deserve because, after all, and I quote from the SWG Adventure Manual that came with the game (as of June 2003), "The Scout is an explorer who is capable of locating vabuable resources, moving over difficult terrain more quickly, and trapping creatures. Perhaps the most balanced and versatile of all the professions, Scouts are well suited to hit-and-run combat and long-distance treks." Yeah, we are the masters of the wild as Rangers, lets get this to be our home, not our temporary stopping point.
DaveG
Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:36 am
#25
Owen-Lars wrote:
Ok guys me and Calchave some news to give your from the dev team:
The HTFB doesn't repel agro in any way and the devs do not intend to change this at this time. The reason behind this is the obvious exploiting potential that any agro repelent would have not just in camp form.
This decision could change if we come up with a viable solution that doesnt allow exploiting of any kind, but the devs have yet to think of a way this can be done.
The devs have said they want to change the description of the HTFB to not hint at agro repelantso this should at least limit the enquiries into why this 'feature' isnt working. This shouldnt stop us suggesting ideas for agro repelant solutions, it should just make us think carefully about exploit potential and create a solution that they devs cant say no to
I think it's fair to say me and Calc are both happy with the feedback the devs are giving because it shows they have acknowledged the bugs and things we suggest aswel as they have thought about solutions (even if some are unsuccessful), lets hope this feedback continues for the future.
Im going to push for changing the effects of traps (ranger traps) as a buf fix so ill keep you all updated on that front.
There's a very simple answer to address so-called exploits, and it worries me that the devs apparently didn't think of it.
Make the camp such that trying to do anything to a target outside of the camp raises the "error" message; "You cannot see your target". We already get this "error" on things we can plainly see, so implementig a "You cannot see your target" boundary around a HTFB should be possible. This way you cannot attack or heal anything outside of your camp.
Furthermore, if they want to make this really water tight to avoid group "exploits", then make it such that if a group member engages in combat, then they cannot enter the camp until they are no-longer in a combat state. They'd be effectively locked out of the camp.
(The only thing I can see happening then, is if someone outside becomes incapacitated, a medic could run out of the camp and drag the body back into the camp, as long as the medic doesn't get aggro'd. However, I think if anybody called this an exploit then we would have to seriously question their motives!)
If think this works, so unless anyone can come up with an undisputable counter argument, could you put my idea to the devs please, Owens?
Message Edited by DaveG on 12-19-2004 07:40 AM
JeCy
Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:39 am
#26
Id acually like this feature installed to all camps, well not the basic camp.. but mulit on up., it works like this
You clear out an area thats safe to set up camp IE there is no lair with in 70m radious. You set up camp and that halts a spawn from poping right on top of you or in say that 70m radius. Possibly it would grow with camp size,, say multi is 60m, imporved 75m and up to say 125m or soo for a hight tech feild base.
the exploit to this should be non existant i would think? seeing the area was cleared,, its just going to halt new spawns in the near vicinity. People could still train animals in to your area, and possibly say a prowler, or stalker might get in if you have a samll camp, i would think the large HTFB radius would stop that.. basically it lets you set up a camp and not have something pop right next to you and kill you while you sleep : )
Any thoughts?