Ranger Archive
Thread: Calc's Critical Analysis of the Ranger Profession.
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Calculus_Entropy
Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:33 am
#1
Due to recent events I have been thinking we need to get the Devs' attention. During this time, I have been organizing my arguements and would like to present them to you for your consideration.
1.Areatrack and Terrain Negotiation- Vehicles have put a hit on both areatrack and terrain negotiation (TN). Areatrack is still useful, but in reality, we all know the betterway to find spawns it to ride youvehicle around until you find what you are looking for. This is especially true for the rare creatures (krayts, peko peko albatross, etc.). TN used to be necessary for travel, now it has become a perk for combat (TN makes hunting on Dathomir easier, but you can live withoutit even there) and is no longer necessary. In recent months, more and more of the people in my group either get their TN from Combat Medic, or don't have any at all. Also Ranger TN giving a crawl bonus? Get real, very few need it.
2. Rescue - Best way I know of totake anaggro is to stand between the person in trouble and the offending creature anddamage it (I even used this method when I was a ranged combatant).
3. Harvesting - Harvesting works ok, but as far harvesting mass quantities, a Master Scout with some Medic skill and multiple elite combat skills can harvest large amounts far more quickly than Rangers can. Then there is the whole "wasted resource" issue, i.e. why can't we harvest all resources off of each kill. As JB points out later in this thread, we spend a lot of skill points to get a minimal 30% increase in harvest over master Scouts. Since this is our meat and potatoes skill, why can't the difference be a little larger?
4. RangerGrenades (they certainly don't trap creatures)- We all love the Scout grenades, but few of us use the Ranger grenades. Plus, 4 skill boxes only gets us 2 new grenades? Weak. On top of that, we were assured new traps were in the works back in August, but they never seem to have materialized (maybe they are spending so much time on them that they will be so uber that we won't be able to see straight once we finally get them:smileyvery-happy
. Then there are the bugs; last grenade in stack doesn't work, we don't always get a message when we use them (stating that eitherthey worked or didn't).
. Then there are the bugs; last grenade in stack doesn't work, we don't always get a message when we use them (stating that eitherthey worked or didn't).5. Camo (/conceal) - There is mixed debate on this subject. Many love camo, I personally do not. As far as I am concerned, it is a resource and inventory consuming maskscent. In all honesty I only used it hide from NPCs, but this ability was mostly removed. Many state that is still works against certain NPCs, but once the meatlumps started attacking me at will again, I stopped using it. Then the dev statement about it never being intended to work on NPCs while the description of it said it was, was the last straw. I will now use the kits to decorate my city's cantina.
6. Camps - Boy oh boy. We all know the problems here. Heal modifier? Docs have droids. Heal BF? No one would ever return to city (I call BS on that, btw...anyone ever been to a cantina other than Coronet..no dancers/musicians to be found). Used to be used to call pets, etc? This was a perk (still didn't need the Ranger camps), if you can call it that. I called it a nuiscance. At least after publish 7 I can free up some more inventory space (I will put my basic camps into the bank, but I will keep my HTFB on me). Repel aggro? Never worked. Stop rain? Heh.
I know some Rangers use them to heal their wounds, but I would venture to say that a majority of us don't. They disband during combat making them fairly useless on the advanced planets, or if you are near vrelts and kreetles. Once again, the Devs said that they new camps were getting nerfed in Publish 7 and that they would be looked at soon, but all of a sudden, we are being pushed behind Jedi (this makes sensebecause there are more Jedi than Rangers out there).
I know some Rangers use them to heal their wounds, but I would venture to say that a majority of us don't. They disband during combat making them fairly useless on the advanced planets, or if you are near vrelts and kreetles. Once again, the Devs said that they new camps were getting nerfed in Publish 7 and that they would be looked at soon, but all of a sudden, we are being pushed behind Jedi (this makes sensebecause there are more Jedi than Rangers out there). (The following is moslty rant...ignore at will)
This post is more for our discussion (I feel we need a place to vent again) and for TH to see how passionate Rangers are, and that we really do need to have our concerns addressed (we are looking into it is not a valid response antmore). Last I heard we were behind Smugglers who were behind Droid Engineers. Droid Engineers took a month or two longer than expected. How long will Smuggler take to fix? How likely are we to actually get looked after Smugglers? I still maintain that the Space Expansion will come before we get a good look. I am not looking for an immediate revamp. I don't want the skill trees to be redefined. I know the Devs got preoccupied with the combat balance (bravo, btw) and Jedi (boo..hiss...whatever happened to Jedi being rare; way to crumble Devs). I just want some attention to be shown to the Ranger profession. Even if we only get campsrestructured initially, that is so much better than having 3.5 lines of Ranger be underutilized (useless even).
OK, so people hate it when people diss a profession wihtout offering up solutions...well, I offer up the Outdoorsman Proposal (yet again) to repair/enhance the Ranger profession. I feel it would solve most of our problems, and make Ranger more viable again. (Afterthought: I want to see the numbers of Rangers with at least 2 level 4 Ranger skills vs. the number of Jedi out there.)
Edit: Added JB's comment about the 30% increse in harvest over a master Scout.
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 03-17-2004 04:43 PM
Kukkii_the_Cooking_Wookie
Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:53 am
#2
I agree with everything said. I sincerely hope that Rangers get a much-needed looking-at soon, or at least some Dev feedback. They can't honestly think that the ranger class is perfect, so what -are- they thinking? 'looking into it' is a cop-out. How about telling us what has been tossed around in discussion among dev circles? What suggestions of ours seem good, and what don't? I don't see the point of keeping us in the dark, or, dare I say, ignoring us.
TalKurgan
Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:47 am
#3
I just want to pick on the BF thing. I second Calc's BS call on the healing BF in camps issue. I only go to the big cities to heal BF and sell stuff on the Bazzar (I don't always hunt on contract.), butI always need to go heal BF before I am ready to come in an load items on the Bazzar. If I could fix some of that BF in the field (Well, the HTFB anyway.), then I would be much better off. I can barely stant to walk around the big cities (where I know there will be an entertainer in the cantina), as it takes me 30 seconds just to turn 180 degrees! (I know, I know, I need more RAM, but each time I go to slice my RAM, I seem to get a damage slice rather thana speed slice.) I'm a ranger, and should be more at home in the wild!
BaneShee
Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:03 pm
#4
I agree Calc,
Rangers have been patient up until now and while all the other professions whine and moan, Rangers for the most part have waited our turn and have been quiet and understanding of the development schedules,while our quiet and respectful behavior has delivered one nerf after another.Now I'm not apposed to nerfs and Irealize nerfs are a part of the game but it seems to me that the devs are taking things away from us just to appease other whinny professions and to continue taking things away without giving even a clue of when we might get something back is bordering on inexcusable.
Going forwardI wouldlikeour new correspondent to get aserious response from the devs about what they like and don't like about our proposals and then once we have an understanding about what they can and cant do then I want to see a time line when it can be implemented.It may be time very soon for Rangers to stand up and be heard.
SkevStarmu
Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:25 pm
#5
HORRAY!!!!
I've been stating these very facts for months now.
I say we strike!!
lets face it the other classes don't care at all about us til they need organics. I'm seeing all over the boards people gladly droping scout since they don't need it to build tents anymore and I say good ridence. shoud we stop hunting? no. But if we take missions for income and freeze up the organic market you can bet the other professions will know we exist. I personally am fed up with being treated like a 3rd class citizen. It's time for action.
Nemo0
Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:28 pm
#6
I still like the idea of a galaxy wide resource strike. Let the BHs go out and use their scout skills for once. Then we'll hear them whining to fix Ranger (waaah, my armorsmith can't get any wooly hide for my armor).
. Then we'll hear them whining to fix Ranger (waaah, my armorsmith can't get any wooly hide for my armor).Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
PithrenDarkstar
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:21 pm
#7
"Think it carefully, don't make it a useless "paper tiger" but balanced AND true stealth even to PC and we will truely be worth 140 skill points."
I think a lot of people misinterpret the reasons behind the lack of stealth in this game. In a profession based leveling system such as SWG's, it is impossible to regulate what skills you get to supplement stealth. In a regular, class-based system, however, it would be easy to give less combat skills to a class that has stealth. Because the Devs can't control what profession we get along with a ranger stealth ability, it would be nearly impossible to implement it in a balanced manner.
Nemo0
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:29 pm
#8
Unless the only true stealth comes at Master. Then they can regulate how much combat skills we get. And by true stealth, this might only be the PvP element of it. But, either way, do we really want everyone in this profession? No offence but I don't want the UB3R L33T5 coming into this forum.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
Edit: I really should just turn my sig into an actual sig and save the trouble of editing it every time I screw up...
Message Edited by Nemo0 on 03-17-2004 09:30 PM
Fred_Skinner
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:43 pm
#9
Easy answer to both of you is only at master. "Teh u63r l337" will not sacrifice 140 skill points of raw power for "pops on radar after you shoot", and if a master is on their side as well and given the ability to mark you: nullified. You see, it is all in the implimentation. Dismissing it out of hand does not yeild this discussion, however.
Remember, both sides get access to Ranger in a battle and one as a detector can be useful as well.
GoldMemberBria
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:44 pm
#10
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Then there is the whole "wasted resource" issue, i.e. why can't we harvest all resources off of each kill.
I keep hearing rangers say this, and don't get it quite frankly. Calc, you are out hunting bats and flying creatures for very valuable avian meat, you look over your shoulder and see a combat stud/scout tearing up the lairs you are struggling with and getting twice as much as you. He is the true hunter, you are not. Would it really make any difference to you whether or not in addition to that awesome meat you were also getting some crappy 100 OQ bone that nobody would want anyway? Yea, it would be kinda nice, but so many rangers are pushing this like it would be some jewel in our crown or something and I just can't see it.
Fred_Skinner
Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:48 pm
#11
I have had 3 cases now where had I this I would have gotten 2 high demand resources out of one critter. Not to mention all the people I turn down needing cheap, sub-quality like Architects and grinders. This would open up my business significantly.
GoldMemberBria wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Then there is the whole "wasted resource" issue, i.e. why can't we harvest all resources off of each kill.
I keep hearing rangers say this, and don't get it quite frankly. Calc, you are out hunting bats and flying creatures for very valuable avian meat, you look over your shoulder and see a combat stud/scout tearing up the lairs you are struggling with and getting twice as much as you. He is the true hunter, you are not. Would it really make any difference to you whether or not in addition to that awesome meat you were also getting some crappy 100 OQ bone that nobody would want anyway? Yea, it would be kinda nice, but so many rangers are pushing this like it would be some jewel in our crown or something and I just can't see it.
Rancorrider4
Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:04 pm
#12
"I keep hearing rangers say this, and don't get it quite frankly. Calc, you are out hunting bats and flying creatures for very valuable avian meat, you look over your shoulder and see a combat stud/scout tearing up the lairs you are struggling with and getting twice as much as you. He is the true hunter, you are not. Would it really make any difference to you whether or not in addition to that awesome meat you were also getting some crappy 100 OQ bone that nobody would want anyway? Yea, it would be kinda nice, but so many rangers are pushing this like it would be some jewel in our crown or something and I just can't see it."
I do see it. Why if Ranger's can harvest more than anyone else, would we leave the remainder of the carcass to rot? At Master level there is NO reason we shouldn't be able to harvest all three resources. The quantities could become smaller as you harvest the remainder of the animal. Like Fred said, this would open up a bigger market for us.
Secondly, unrelated to the above post but related to another in this thread, I feel we should table any dicussion of true stealth until further notice. The Dev's have stated repeatedly that they are against stealth/invisibility. I really feel we should be concentrating on getting the Outdoorsman proposal addressed, and more specifically our concerns about camps.
Calc's notes on terrain negotiation are also right on the money. I'd like us to be able to trade that in for something more useful to us at this point. Vehicles pretty well did away with TN as a whole. Who walks anymore?
Respectfully,
Calculus_Entropy
Wed Mar 17, 2004 3:09 pm
#13
I think it is more of a priciple than a necessity. It would make us a hair different than scouts. And as Fred said, I have seen instances where there were to high quality resoruces on the same creature (pikets are notorious for this, IMO). More often I have seen instances where there is are high and medium quality resoruces on a creature. If given the choice, however, I would have to go for a boost in amount over the ability to harvest multiple, but I think both are necessary.
GoldMemberBria wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Then there is the whole "wasted resource" issue, i.e. why can't we harvest all resources off of each kill.
I keep hearing rangers say this, and don't get it quite frankly. Calc, you are out hunting bats and flying creatures for very valuable avian meat, you look over your shoulder and see a combat stud/scout tearing up the lairs you are struggling with and getting twice as much as you. He is the true hunter, you are not. Would it really make any difference to you whether or not in addition to that awesome meat you were also getting some crappy 100 OQ bone that nobody would want anyway? Yea, it would be kinda nice, but so many rangers are pushing this like it would be some jewel in our crown or something and I just can't see it.
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