Ranger Archive
Thread: Calc, is this possible for a pre req?
.Message Edited by dodtri on 09-26-2005 06:31 AM
This is what is known as a "floating" pre-req,and it's been proposed a lot of times, including way back in the CU Alpha forums. The problem is twofold. One, the amount of time it would take to completely re-write the way that the pre-reqs are done (yes, it would take a while think of all the things the skills system is tied to and the implications). Secondly, they'd have to do this change for smugglers, commando's, bouny hunters, squad leaders, etc. Why should we be the one hybrid built like that?
Is is possible? Sure, in the same way that any change is theoretically possible. I mean theoretically, the developers could change the art assests and instead of throwing traps, Scouts would throw snakes, spiders and cougars at their targets. Again...unlikely, but theoretically possible.
Floating pre-reqs are a great idea, but they require a fundamental shift of the way people think about hybrids, and it would require a lot of new code. New code = more time spend. And I simply doubt they'll put that much time in for just the Rangers. It's a lot easier to give us something that may not fit everybody's lifestyle. Check out the other threads that deal with carbines ("Give me Carbines or Give me Death" and "We do not want carbines!" ) and you'll see that we've been discussing this for a while. And while I agree with the idea of giving us a floating pre-req, it simply won't happen.
if every hybrid has a floating pre-req, you could easily have a lot of FOTM templates popping up.
Why must we be made into a hybrid class? Why can't they just use the Exploration and Trapping lines or Trapping and Survival lines of Scout and keep us an Elite Profession? If we remain Elite, then the Ranger has a choice of Ranged OR Melee. Making us intoa Hybrid decreases the ability to have a Melee Ranger if we are required to take Carbines IV.
I think, all around, we'd be better off as an Elite, rather than a Hybrid.
Staying an Elite profession under your proposal while fair in your eyes to all rangers. Would make Rangers a second class profession\hybrid compared to every other hybrid profession.
Requiring 1 tree in a combat skill makes every Ranger the equal to any other Hybrid in the amount of points spent to achieve a equal footing.
Rolfie wrote:
Staying an Elite profession under your proposal while fair in your eyes to all rangers. Would make Rangers a second class profession\hybrid compared to every other hybrid profession.Requiring 1 tree in a combat skill makes every Ranger the equal to any other Hybrid in the amount of points spent to achieve a equal footing.Short of the prereqs requiring a novice combat skill and one tree of scout Rangers will be always gimped compared to any other hybrid Profession.
If we're staying an elite profession, then the othe 90% of your commentary is totally irrelavant. If we're an elite profession, then we can't be compared to hybrid professions. That's the point. If we require 1 tree in marksman, then yeah, we're a hybrid and we should be as effective as the other hybrids. If we don't get a skill in markmsan, then comparing us to hybrids is foolhearty at best. You've made this argument several times and you still miss the point that if we have 2 lines of scout, then we're not a hybrid and thus cannot be compared to one. We would be an elite profession and you'd have to compare us to them.
You see how many times you use hybrids to justify balancing us, even when we're discussing not being a hybrid profession?
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
Staying an Elite profession under your proposal while fair in your eyes to all rangers. Would make Rangers a second class profession\hybrid compared to every other hybrid profession.Requiring 1 tree in a combat skill makes every Ranger the equal to any other Hybrid in the amount of points spent to achieve a equal footing.Short of the prereqs requiring a novice combat skill and one tree of scout Rangers will be always gimped compared to any other hybrid Profession.
If we're staying an elite profession, then the othe 90% of your commentary is totally irrelavant. If we're an elite profession, then we can't be compared to hybrid professions. That's the point. If we require 1 tree in marksman, then yeah, we're a hybrid and we should be as effective as the other hybrids. If we don't get a skill in markmsan, then comparing us to hybrids is foolhearty at best. You've made this argument several times and you still miss the point that if we have 2 lines of scout, then we're not a hybrid and thus cannot be compared to one. We would be an elite profession and you'd have to compare us to them.
You see how many times you use hybrids to justify balancing us, even when we're discussing not being a hybrid profession?
Phenix,
I do not believe Ranger should be an Elite profession.
I fully understand the Elite versus Hybrid comparisions so please don't start over analyzing me with your views again.
Keeping Ranger as an elite Profession is a bad choice. I fully support the Dev team in the choice to make Ranger a Hybrid that is the best choice.
In a one to one comparion out of the block I want Rangers to be the equal of any other Hybrid Profession plain and simple.
Is that clear enough for you?
So don't read into, or start making assumptions, matter of fact don't analyze anything either.
You made your case several times about staying an ELITE profession.
In day to day game play staying an Elite profession is a bad chjoice for Rangers.
Hybrid offer the most options to teh player. Now the question is how to limit the Ranger -Bounty Hunter ineraction making one over powered profession.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-26-2005 07:13 AM
Weapon Specials: The devs have stated we wound get these. Only commandoes do not have some kind of combat specials. And while the SL's do not have direct damage dealing specials, they do have special abilities they can use in combat.
Unique Weapons: Every hybrid has them. BH's and Smugglers has most of them, but even Combat Medic has a master only weapon (besides the offensive medic abilities). Even the elite profession Doctor has a unique doc only weapon. If the devs had planed this thye would likely have used it as a argument for giving us a carbineer prq-req.
Profession only armour: The BH has a special BH only armour. I do not think we should expect to get this ever.
Special missions: BH's have them, both PvE and PvP. Smugglers may get them, there has at lees been a concept published a good while back about smuggling and such. And while there has been hint about Smuggler vs ranger style missions, I would not count on that being anytime soon.
Combat Mod's: The last thing that hybrids have. But Combat medics (a hybrid profession), get the exact same mods as Doctor (a elite profession).
Baring some very good combat mod's in ranger where is the justification for making us Hybrids with out giving us what other hybrids has. If the argument is that, "Ranger should have one line in two different novice professions, because other hybrids has that" then ranger should also have the same combat mods, weapon specials, and weapon certs that other professions have. And for the moment we DO NOT have that.
Going from Elite to Hybrid is also a fundamental change in the Ranger Profession - ultimatily its one of the reasons I think we're better off staying Eliteand adjusting the pre-reqs.
Unfortunately we're stuck with Ranger being something of a problem, it's unique among all the existing professions.
Requiring some weapon proficiency - even RS4 - hurts the group of Rangers that are, and have always been, Melee. Requiring some type of melee pre-req causes the same problem. On the other end of the spectrum though we're stuck with an unclear sense of how the profession will end up stacking appropriate mods such that we're capable of being versatile but not overpowered.
Ultimately I think we need to prove that we come from a diverse combat background and aren't really interested in re-rolling combat professions we've (potentially) spent millions of credits, hundred of dollars, and hundreds of hours playing and learning.
Personally, i will miss the elite profession that ranger was (with all its flaws, weaknesses and bugs) however, if the goal is to make a hybrid that is on par with bounty hunter, commando, smuggler or squad leader... then i think that overall, the rangers will benefit from that. I am excited for the revamp and i think its going to be good (once the initial kinks are worked out)
Here is another point to consider.
novice scout +15 sp
Exp 4 +14
novice marksman +15
carbines 4 +14
this is a 58 skill point sink to make ranger into a hybrid profession with combat mods. In order to keep a similar skill point cost, there would have to be at least 3 full lines in scout for a 57 skill point sink in order to make ranger equivalent to the hybrid costs. No other profession requires 3 lines in a novice profession (not that its not impossible) but i think one of the things we're missing is that the ranger revamp is not just in skills, but in scope, tactics and role.
they've essentially changed ranger into something completely different than what we were. the good thing, is that by keeping master scout, we can retain most of what ranger has lost.
the main issue with the carbine requirement i have is that its not that carbines are the best fit for ranger... i really dont think that was the justification for making that a prereq. I think it was very in the box thinking to make carbines the req.
a more creative way to pre-req are all the other suggestions we've had.
nevertheless, despite how much i am not a huge fan of the carbines requirement, i do like carbineer and i will have fun no matter what the pre-reqs are.
Message Edited by AgonThalia on 09-27-2005 08:05 AM
Ranger with Scout 2 (Elite Preofession) lines prereq means Ranger has 14 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Ranger with Scout 3 lines prereq mean Ranger has 28 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Ranger has a Hybrid means you will have the points a Master Bounty Hunter, Commando,Squad Leader or Smuggler have.
As an ELITE profession you have to kill the target somehow to get scout XP it will not fall into your hands magicly. The real question is how you spend those 29 points for a combat profession, and do you want them included in your Ranger prereqs, tocut the prereq cost of Ranger in half.
Rolfie wrote:
Ranger with Scout 2 (Elite Preofession) lines prereq means Ranger has 14 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Ranger with Scout 3 lines prereq mean Ranger has 28 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Erm...what?
Two line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line= 28+ 15 = 43 skillpoints
three line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line = 42+ 15= 57 skillpoints
two line hybring profession 15 skillpoints for each novice, 14 for each line = 30 + 28 = 58 skillpoints.
So a two line elite has 15 skillponts more than a hybrid, and a three line elite has one more skillpoints.
Again, you're using fuzzy math. On a straight up SP cost analysis, elite is better. Now I know what you'll probably say, but in the end, if you're going to present numbers, at least provide all the information about what you're assuming with those number. Clearly you're assuming a ranged combat ranger, rather than simply looking at ranger by itself.
People might want to pick up Ranger to go with their brawler, their crafter, their doctor, their entertainer, etc. Everyone has a right to be a Ranger and making them a double elite gives more skilllpoints to those who might choose a non-marksman based template.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Erm...what?
Two line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line= 28+ 15 = 43 skillpoints
three line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line = 42+ 15= 57 skillpoints
two line hybring profession 15 skillpoints for each novice, 14 for each line = 30 + 28 = 58 skillpoints.
Message Edited by Jaeryk on 09-27-2005 10:55 AM
Phenix1050 wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
Ranger with Scout 2 (Elite Preofession) lines prereq means Ranger has 14 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Ranger with Scout 3 lines prereq mean Ranger has 28 points fewer than a Hybrid Profession.
Erm...what?
Two line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line= 28+ 15 = 43 skillpoints
three line elite profession: 15 SP for novice, 14 for each line = 42+ 15= 57 skillpoints
two line hybring profession 15 skillpoints for each novice, 14 for each line = 30 + 28 = 58 skillpoints.
So a two line elite has 15 skillponts more than a hybrid, and a three line elite has one more skillpoints.
Again, you're using fuzzy math. On a straight up SP cost analysis, elite is better. Now I know what you'll probably say, but in the end, if you're going to present numbers, at least provide all the information about what you're assuming with those number. Clearly you're assuming a ranged combat ranger, rather than simply looking at ranger by itself.
People might want to pick up Ranger to go with their brawler, their crafter, their doctor, their entertainer, etc. Everyone has a right to be a Ranger and making them a double elite gives more skilllpoints to those who might choose a non-marksman based template.
PHENIX you are so full of yourself its getting ignorant.
ELITE profession Scout 4400 or Scout 4440 means that inorder to kill something a Ranger MUST take a combat skill.NOW add in the prereqgs for that COMBAT skill. Apply said Prereqs to the PREREQS for Ranger. DO they overlap at all?
If not then the Ranger "Elite" Profession has a NET loss of Skill points usable compared to a Hybrid class.
SO aRanger as Scout 4400 mean a Ranger HAS to spend 29 points to get the prereqs for a ranged or melee combat skill in order to kill his target in order to collect scout XP or any other XP to level with.
IF Ranger is a hybrid then 29 of those points applied to Ranger and the Combat skill are shared and the Ranger is not spending them twice. Only Once, therefore the ranger gains a net increase of 14 points.