Ranger Archive
Thread: A Ranger Revamp Idea
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Wilhelmy
Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:55 am
#1
Ok first of all not only us but even the devs have to think is what is a ranger in todays society that we live and what was a ranger centuries ago.... to get what ranger would be in a futuristic world like star wars .... so before we get to SWG a ranger today is a member of the armed forces but not only as an ordinary profession part of infantry like a rifleman is but as one of the elite special forces in the army ... now a ranger got to be all that because of years and years of learning training and developing survival technics not just in the wilderness and foreing terrains but also on foreign territory such as bases cities ,....
Now those are surviving technics now we get to the roles .... a ranger primary role today would be recon which may include recover and assault.
Now lets go a little bit to some of the roles we have on SWG
Tracking: now you are able to track basicly any lifeform but you only get direction and distance, have to unmount everytime while a surveyor is able to track resourses while mount. The way I see it as a master ranger this should not be an issue at all ! another thing and i believe this have to do with the animation .... a ranger when it tracks looks at the horizon to see where things are now we all know that a ranger tracks by studing the terrain for possible ground vibration fallen objects footprints smell,... so i would see first the need to wider range, the need to actual special waypoint, being able to track while mounted ! different animation in the case would be something like the Lord of the rings the Two towers like when aragorn ( a true ranger) put his ear on the ground and felt vibration and also by sampleing the terrain was able to ping point where the orcs were.
Cammo: a little effective against other creatures. Now, one of my biggest disapointment on this is the fact that we use camuflage on the armed forces and it is not just to hide from wild creatures but to hide from enemies, now the way I see cammo should be agree with what everybody has been proposing taking you out of the radar but one thing you are all forgeting is that a cammo kit is also suppose to make you look different or more a like the enviroment. the way i see that is everytime you put a cammo kit on you should also be hard to see by anyone around you and to that i propose the Predator invisibility device so, you would not be completly invisible but you would be hard to see looking like a moving glass sculpture. Also with that the abilitie to decise himself as Imperial or rebel by wearing factional uniform and having a different simbol for a certain ammount of time (would be good for a quick getaway when pvp is effective lol)
Traps: Ok, come on we all know if i make a hole on tthe ground and cover with leaves anyone not just creatures will probably fall. So, it is not just used for creatures but humans as well I hope the Dev team gets this one above all lol
Weapons: Currently none. Now bounty hunter and smmugler have their own little pistols why cant we have our own little rifle tree (since rifleman ranger is the best combo)
Frontiering: I would propose we change this title to jungle or foreing terrain training 1, 2, 3, 4 tittle being Jungle surviver or Foreign terrain master or surviver. here we could include all the creature knowledge terrain negociations, forageing camps, surviving tool creation ability (really like that proposal) of course we could divide in 2 trees like stealth and jungle training or foreing terrain training.
well here are my suggestions it was not perfect like i wanted to putted out but im at work right now so is hard to type and get a lot of details on subject though i believe yopu can all understand where im comming from and where I want and we all want our profession to go
Hopefully CSR will get this ! as well as Gizmos Force ranking Ideas for a future Jedi revamp that you are all welcome to check it out at
Gizmo's FRS Jedi revamp Proposal
thank you all
later
Message Edited by Wilhelmy on 03-27-2005 10:06 AM
JBMat
Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:03 am
#2
You lost my support at the ranger/rifle statement.
It's not the "best", simply one of quite a few effective combos. Best at what? I can slay creatures faster with a pistol and don't need a droid to harvest for me. For that matter,an armored buffed TKM is better than any weapon for speed of killing.
I do not like nor will I use a rifle. This sentiment is shared by a lot of people, so why foist an unwanted weapon upon anyone?
JB
Fodder650
Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:12 am
#3
Im a TKM/Ranger/CH and buffed or unbuffed i feel this is the best combo myself
Almagill
Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:25 am
#4
WilhelmY wrote:
Ok, first of all, we have to get away from this notion that the SWG ranger is in any way,shape or form 'similar' or analogous to the modern day SpecFor Ranger. Modern day Ranger regiments are elite military units which contain a number of specialisms. Each trooper is a part of the whole. They can and do function individually, often to great effect, but by and large they are part of an extended military system reacting to local conditions in order to achieve a specific goal identified by a centralised command core.
The only way you could compare a modern day ranger to the SWG ranger is if, for example, the SAS or SEALS arrived at a target and immediately thought "Hmmm, that water buffalo would drop a good yield of hide and these chickens would keep our doc happy for weeks..."
The SWG Ranger is nearer to a paramilitary / counter insurgency unit. Think more along the lines of the muleskinners who would work alongside cavalry regiments, foraging the local area for supplies, checking for approaching enemy units, tracking and shadowing those units and then feeding the information they gathered back to glory boys.
As opposed to being 'crack military units' these were hard men who lived a hard life, were not afraid to get their hands dirty and had, through tracking and hunting wild animals (and in doing so had had to either avoid the tender attentions of the local hunters who would be less than pleased at having their kills stolen or having to develop close trading relationships with the local communities in order to secure provisions and keep themselves alive in the worst times) had developed the ability to find a targe, watch it, understand it and then react appropriately.
Their weapon skills were learned alongside the tracking skills, (and as such I'm going to HAVE to agree with Phenix, yes, rangers should be able to do damage as part of the hunt. How and with what is still open to debate
). Those weapon skills could be enhanced by military training, military discipline and access to military style weaponry (ie, in SWG, the taking of a specific combat profession).
Historical 'border' rangers were highly territorial, were used to maintain borders and protect herds within a specific geographic area. They were also expected to give military service on behalf of their superiors 'furth of the realm' but in that role they were subverted to a role as forager / shock troop.
The best example of a parallel in the SWG 'world' would be rangers in the pay of a faction, either rebel, Imperial, Hutt or Valarian. Their primary role would be to protect their masters lands / property while exacting punitive raids on the herds / property of opposite faction.
Oh, and as a footnote, I'm a human Ranger/rifleman who hunts unbuffed and unarmoured but faction farms suited and booted, but I think that a Wookiee / trando ranger/swords/TK is the 'best' combo.
Ok first of all not only us but even the devs have to think is what is a ranger in todays society that we live and what was a ranger centuries ago.... to get what ranger would be in a futuristic world like star wars .... so before we get to SWG a ranger today is a member of the armed forces but not only as an ordinary profession part of infantry like a rifleman is but as one of the elite special forces in the army ... now a ranger got to be all that because of years and years of learning training and developing survival technics not just in the wilderness and foreing terrains but also on foreign territory such as bases cities ,....
Now those are surviving technics now we get to the roles .... a ranger primary role today would be recon which may include recover and assault.
Now lets go a little bit to some of the roles we have on SWG
Ok, first of all, we have to get away from this notion that the SWG ranger is in any way,shape or form 'similar' or analogous to the modern day SpecFor Ranger. Modern day Ranger regiments are elite military units which contain a number of specialisms. Each trooper is a part of the whole. They can and do function individually, often to great effect, but by and large they are part of an extended military system reacting to local conditions in order to achieve a specific goal identified by a centralised command core.
The only way you could compare a modern day ranger to the SWG ranger is if, for example, the SAS or SEALS arrived at a target and immediately thought "Hmmm, that water buffalo would drop a good yield of hide and these chickens would keep our doc happy for weeks..."
The SWG Ranger is nearer to a paramilitary / counter insurgency unit. Think more along the lines of the muleskinners who would work alongside cavalry regiments, foraging the local area for supplies, checking for approaching enemy units, tracking and shadowing those units and then feeding the information they gathered back to glory boys.
As opposed to being 'crack military units' these were hard men who lived a hard life, were not afraid to get their hands dirty and had, through tracking and hunting wild animals (and in doing so had had to either avoid the tender attentions of the local hunters who would be less than pleased at having their kills stolen or having to develop close trading relationships with the local communities in order to secure provisions and keep themselves alive in the worst times) had developed the ability to find a targe, watch it, understand it and then react appropriately.
Their weapon skills were learned alongside the tracking skills, (and as such I'm going to HAVE to agree with Phenix, yes, rangers should be able to do damage as part of the hunt. How and with what is still open to debate
). Those weapon skills could be enhanced by military training, military discipline and access to military style weaponry (ie, in SWG, the taking of a specific combat profession).Historical 'border' rangers were highly territorial, were used to maintain borders and protect herds within a specific geographic area. They were also expected to give military service on behalf of their superiors 'furth of the realm' but in that role they were subverted to a role as forager / shock troop.
The best example of a parallel in the SWG 'world' would be rangers in the pay of a faction, either rebel, Imperial, Hutt or Valarian. Their primary role would be to protect their masters lands / property while exacting punitive raids on the herds / property of opposite faction.
Oh, and as a footnote, I'm a human Ranger/rifleman who hunts unbuffed and unarmoured but faction farms suited and booted, but I think that a Wookiee / trando ranger/swords/TK is the 'best' combo.
Message Edited by Almagill on 03-29-2005 04:28 PM
Wilhelmy
Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:32 am
#5
Ok I get that but our main goal here is to make a ranger a more combat profession I respect your views and everything
I was once in the US NAVY and ive been part of this war too and of course you cannot compare Real life with SWG life one you die and clone the other .... (you get a medal for it) and I have a lot of respect to the RL special forces and Military organization cause I've been there Being on The LHD-1 USS WASP an amphibious ship full of marines and Seals so I got to work close with these ppl on a dayly basis
now going back to SWG Ranger I believe i am no the only one that wants Ranger to be a Combat Profession ! and If it is going to be one it has to be one like no other because like you said ranger are ppl of the wild but like you said again Ranger today are trained in special survival tranning to be on Special units of the military so, Why cant the SWG ranger be a combination of both but better .... I mean come on See how much advance is the Star Wars universe ??? or you think a ranger in about 1000 years from now is gonna be used to harvest and kill animals in the wild only masking his sent (cause thats what conselment is in the game today)
all I have to say is use your common sence before comments .... now if all you like is chacing chickens propose a new profession ...
Farmer .... where you can use all your creature knowledge at !!!
Message Edited by Wilhelmy on 03-29-2005 08:57 AM
FourthNail
Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:14 am
#7
Ya know what I think of when I think of the SWG Ranger and its possible role in the SWG? I think of the native American scouts employed by the Calvary or by the Colonial armies. They were hunters, fishermen and warriors who specialized in guerilla tactics, intell gathering, pathfinding and camoflage.
You never saw them, nor heard them, but as soon as you knew they were there, they were either gone with the info they needed or you were dead.
I am Plunk Murray, the last of my people
Plunk
You never saw them, nor heard them, but as soon as you knew they were there, they were either gone with the info they needed or you were dead.
I am Plunk Murray, the last of my people
Plunk
Message Edited by FourthNail on 03-29-2005 09:15 AM
Wilhelmy
Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:50 pm
#8
thats where im trying to get with these Ideas ....and you are absolutely right !!!!!
CuchulainnDarklight
Tue Mar 29, 2005 3:07 pm
#9
I agree with FourthNail, although I see the Rangers more as the Kamagor warriors (or other African indigenous tribesmen who fought alongside british troops against the germans and other rapacious enemies in more recent times). A master ranger should be at home wherever he finds himself, camoflaged and silent he should strike quickly, silently and deadly before fading back into cover. He strikes fear into his enemies!
A Ranger is not, not, not, not, not, not, not, a soldier.
Just because certain militaries have units called rangers (and im a member of one) does not mean that rangers should be soldiers in SWG.
We should never have additional skills for pistols, rifles or any other ingame weapon as that still FORCES people who take up a combat profession. We as rangers, the most skill point intensive profession in game, should have our own unique weapons and combat style just as every other profession whos raison d'etre is killing things is unique and different and requires considerably less skill points to master.
Any idea that the SWG Ranger should be some high-tech equiped guy because Star Wars has spaceships is a load of rubbish. A ranger is a survivalist - able to live in the most dangerous of wildernesses for months on end, without supplies or any contact with civilisation. As such a blaster or other high tech weapon is useless as it will run out charges or become unusable due to the trails put upon it.
That is why we should have the bow. Not as random or as clumsy as a blaster - An ancient weapon from a more civilised age.
And the hunters knife too - how else can I skin my critter - with my teeth? Only if Ive been out in the wild TOO long!
And before you go bows are crap - they arent futuristic or Star Warsy enough, what exactly about ranger is Star Wars atm?
If you can come up with a better weapon than the bow (or the Devs signature weapon for us - the Mighty Fishing Rod!!!), that is unique, gives us our missing combat capability, can be used with our other ranger skills and weapons (when/if they are fixed) for a ranger-esque fighting style applicable in all combat arenas, please, feel free to post it here.
If Ranger is to become some form of SF type soldier using scout skills and combat profession weapons then-
1. Our pre-requisite skills should be 1 tree of Scout and Master marksman, not as they are now.
2. i would definately leave ranger as this was not how the SWG literature described ranger when I embarked upon it, and I picked it as I thought it would allow me to fight without being a more recognisable soldier-type, as that is my damn day job and i dont want to pay to do what i do at work dammit.
3. It may even be more restrictive than the current setup asit forces you to get a ranged profession.
As Rangers we should be thinking "outside the box" and not limit ourselves to having to be ranger+master combat profession, or ranger is only good for this not that.
That'll kill the profession quicker than SOE.
Just tell which other elite combat profession requires you to master a second combat profession to be effective, whilst at the same time stopping you from becoming a force sensitive, as you do not have the skill points left to master 6 FS trees? None, thats how many! Just us.
Message Edited by CuchulainnDarklight on 03-29-2005 02:12 PM
Wilhelmy
Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:29 pm
#10
on your last comments Ranger is not a current combat profession, so I guess Doctor ould be an equivelent then !
but anyways ..... My ideas are not just focus on actual combat ... but in stealth .... although if you go out hunting today (in real life) most likely you are to use a rifle arent you, so
A special rifle or unique weapon would fit the profile
the truth is even for survival in the wild a ranger should have the ability to snipe with extreme accuracy !
now a ranger by nature not by special forces ideal but by its main knowledges should be able to perform recon on outposts W/O being detected !
therefore a need of a better cammo system ... not only creatures should be able to lose your tracks but humanoids as well at least on the wild ! said that
We do need a better Cammo system weather the invisibility as i proposed which i believe it fits a ranger on the SW era or simply look like the enviroment that he is in... masking the scent is too basic scout
now a good cammo system fits a ranger !
a ranger should also be able to set up traps around its camping sites ! that would prevent anyone from comming in !
in truth
a Ranger should be without a doubt a combat profession and act almost like an elite spy !
CuchulainnDarklight
Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:36 pm
#11
Wilhelmy wrote:
on your last comments Ranger is not a current combat profession, so I guess Doctor ould be an equivelent then !
but anyways ..... My ideas are not just focus on actual combat ... but in stealth .... although if you go out hunting today (in real life) most likely you are to use a rifle arent you, so
A special rifle or unique weapon would fit the profile
the truth is even for survival in the wild a ranger should have the ability to snipe with extreme accuracy !
now a ranger by nature not by special forces ideal but by its main knowledges should be able to perform recon on outposts W/O being detected !
therefore a need of a better cammo system ... not only creatures should be able to lose your tracks but humanoids as well at least on the wild ! said that
We do need a better Cammo system weather the invisibility as i proposed which i believe it fits a ranger on the SW era or simply look like the enviroment that he is in... masking the scent is too basic scout
now a good cammo system fits a ranger !
a ranger should also be able to set up traps around its camping sites ! that would prevent anyone from comming in !
in truth
a Ranger should be without a doubt a combat profession and act almost like an elite spy !
What do you mean? you keep contradicting yourself!
You say we should have a unique weapon like a rifle, rifles arent unique in SWG.
You say we should focus on stealth yet be a combat profession.
What you say we should be is what we are currently - broken and ineffective!
JBMat
Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:23 am
#12
Having a single weapon is hard. We picked the bow as the arrows will mirror some of our traps, be craftable by us, and it does not step on the ranged nor melee profession toes.
Both ranged and melee could use the bow. So far you have left out the carbine people, to name only one class. Forget a rifle/pistol/knife combo - you will only piss everyone in those classes not Rangers off. The bow is good, not perfect, but hey, no one can scream that we are stealing their stuff.
There are still melee types that don't like the bow idea, as it is a "ranged" weapon. But it would be a ranged weapon that you spend no extra skill points to use, the bonuses come in the trap and survival lines which you have to complete anyhow if you want to Master. Remember, only a Master will have all the arrows and be able to use the bow most effectively, altho Novices will have some skill and arrows.
Think outside the box, for stuff to introduce to make it worth Mastering.
JB
Phenix1050
Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:43 am
#13
JBMat wrote:
Think outside the box, for stuff to introduce to make it worth Mastering.
yo JB, speaking of thinking outside the box, did you see my double crossbow idea? I'm probably going to re-write it as the first time around, I just kinda spat it out in like 5 minutes. But the basic idea is-- double crossbow has two chambers. fill with traps or darts. Ranger must choose between states and damage. imagine landing an a-mesh and a p-dart at the same time. they both land, you can run away a bit while the creature is rooted, then shoot, knowing the creature is still slowed...
anyway, yeah. Ranger weapons need to be unique because evey Ranger is unique. Not everyone wants to be a rifleman. Not everyone wants to be ranged. Boxing us in is a bad choice no matter how you look at it.
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