Ranger Archive

I am a humanoid in this game. I have a radar on my screen that shows me MOB's, PC's, and NPC's. Its not an unreasonable assumption that all humanoids, including NPC's would not have the same. This IS Starwars for goodness sakes. Crafting a pack of goo from bones, hides, and meat is not going to block someone's radar.

Beausoleil, this has been brought up. In my thread of Post your Logic to keep /conceal vs NPC, I argue against this. The radar is not something that atually exists in SW univere. It's purley a game device, to help us "play". I have been up on a lot of the SW EU material, and I have never heard of a personal scanning/radar device that shows "mobs" in your surrounding area. Thus it's not a good argument point.

"The onlything about this I don't like is we now don't have a way to travel across planets with ago humanoids."

Well, no one said the adventure planets were supposed to be easy.

With this new approach, the adventure planets continue to be a sufficient challenge to explorers, as we can't simply walk past all the indigenious personel.

Of course, if you need to get somewhere fast... Get a speeder, and bypass the combat entirely.

"Oh sure maybe we all have /conceal on so it's harder to hit us, but we still have to stop and combat with them."

Aye, but we can evade most humanoids by simply walking around them anyways, which was considered a prime issue withthe way /conceal was implemented initially.

If the creatures beinghunted are near an aggressive humanoid spawn, we can choose to lure the creatures away from the humanoids, move on to another spawn, or simply kill the humanoids and be done with it.

And this system provides an alternative to a system the developers obviously consider to imbalancing to implement on humanoids.

"But I don't think we should propose it as our first choice."

Ok, I can pose both choices in the treatise. But I believe the only chance we have ofconvincingthe developers to change their mind is to fight the battle on one front.

Version 2.0 of this thread will pose this question to the community.

Well now I have read through all the replies here. Seems most like the idea NRaas.

Then IMO it needs to work like this NRaas.

1) /conceal only gives us a "LARGE" negative to hit, against us. From BOTH NPC and animals. Add the need for some poly into it, so we can use it in cities. This is for two reasons. a. The new modifier is useful in PvP finally. Most PvP happens in cities. b. A skillfull ranger of any genre you look at is skillful in stealth "in general" not just outdoors.

2) We can apply it to others. The To Hit mod is static, going up as you progress in ranger. ** It's effectivness needs to be based on the camo skill, and this determines, as now, whether it is broken by your enemies. If not broken the mod still stays, if it is, then the mod goes away.(One NPC breaking it is going to point you out to the others, Animals will do same, and most are melee so others will see where it's attacking)

3) Mask Scent can also be used at same time. (They need different symbols, so change the one for /conceal so we dont see 2 noses)

4) We have the /sneakattack skill added. This can only be done by rangers, and can only be done if you are /concealed.(balances it that we cant use it all the time,since need to be/concealed and that costs resources) This /sneakattack is for first strike attacks only. This can be implemented easiely, by coding it so you can't do it if you are already in combat. It will only work for the first attack, since you are not in combat at the time you hit the commnad. If you try it durring combat, you get message, as some other functions do now, "you cant do this while in combat." Yes this means that if combat ends with the first mob, and we go back to the second one, we can use our sneak attack, again, on it. But of course, that means we went back into hiding and snuck up on it.Natural. This Sneak attack needs to be significant, like x4 damage at least, and only at Master Ranger. Gives Master something cool you worked for and keeps dabblers from getting something so powerful.

** Putting this into one line in ranger will give it to dabblers. If there is a problem with this, then consider spreading that negative to hit mod across the ranger profession. Same as the changes made to CH for pet levels and number of pets out at once.

So what do you all think? Sound reasonable?

"Add the need for some poly into it, so we can use it in cities."

Hmm... I'll have to think about how to reconcile this with the vision of the Outdoorsman.

Others have suggested that city camoflauge be given to another profession, someone more suited to conflict within cities.

"We can apply it to others. The To Hit mod is static, going up as you progress in ranger."

Seconded, I will write the system up in that format.

"Mask Scent can also be used at same time."

Agreed.

"This /sneakattack is for first strike attacks only."

Agreed.

"x4 damage at least, and only at Master Ranger."

Then that is what will be suggested.

Should the ability be limited to creature engagements to ensure focus though? That would flow with the other combat bonuses we are suggesting.

[Edit: Rethought a bit about my reply to /sneakattack, and decided I didn't like it. ]

Message Edited by NRaas on 01-10-2004 10:26 PM

"Between a negative to-hit mod versus a high damage or increased chance to-hit on the initial strike, I vote for the initial strike adavantage. "

That was the point actually... Both would be available in game. It would be up to the player to decide which would help him more during the next battle.

AtomicElephant makes a good point.

However everyone should recognize that the ideas GreenMarine brought forth before being pulled over to Player Cities did originate in this form.

My predecesor requested what type of campsthe community was interested in, and the developers picked out the hunting blind from the noise.

The Lure concept has been around since the July, and was picked up by the developers as something to implement as well.

The problem was the Powers That Be cut the profession implementations short by forcing the Player City agenda up on the priority list.

Now that we are back to profession improvements, I expect a much higher degree of request implementation (though it will be limited to whatever profession GreenMarine is currently focusing on).

But we must get the big ideas ready for consumption before the developers cycle back to our profession, otherwise it will be too late to sway their opinion.

"This is our central problem in my estimation: We are Rangers yes. But we are also Rangers in the Star Wars Universe."

Aye, but we are always Rangers in the game Star Wars: Galaxies, for which the developers have the defining say in how our profession evolves (the final say of course is in the hands of Skywalker Ranch. ).

The developershave this notion of our profession being a creature-centric profession in the grand scheme of the system. Though by the looks of the skills we have had since the beginning, that was the initial intent of our profession.

"My idea here is it offers a way for other players/MOBs to cancel out what might be viewed as a heuge overpowering skill if it is infact a large bonus and it isn't easily broken. I think of FPS games I play where the player's skins are all cammo and it is a jungle map, it's easy to hide, but once you spot someone who is hiding, you start shooting at them andthey have to move which makes it much easier to hit them. IMO, /sneakattack isn't a very "outdoorsman" skill, but a "manhunter" skill more like bountyhunters. it would be cool, but I don't think it fits into the vision that the devs have outlined for us."

"Furthermore, attacking a creature in the wild while /concealed would confuse the creature for some time since they would be unsure of where to attack being that they can't quite see or smell you."

I have to disagree with the /sneakattack comment. I think you're basing it on a rogue/assassin type character. Think about what modern hunters do, they camo themselves and wait. Then when the game come walking completely unawareof the hunter, the hunter basically launches a "surprise attack(aka /sneak attack)". Keep in mind that when game are spooked and running it's not as easy to hit(to-hit) them and toplan out where(represents damage because huntersaim at themost damaging area of the critter)they are going tohit them.

Many RL creatures hunt this way as well. Think of a lioness sneaking uptoobliviousprey and then pouncing on it. If that prey knew that lioness was sneaking up on it, it would run away, not only that, the lioness would lose that "surprise attack". So to summarize /sneakattack represents a premeditated attack towards an unaware victim that has a possible to-hit advantage(because the victim is not spooked and is therefore easier to-hit) and a possible damage increase(because the victim isunaware, the ranger can pick and choose where to hit such as a vital part of the body)

This /sneakattack should easily be applied to all mobs, creature, npc, and pc. Think of this scenario. A rebel ranger is notified of a hostile imperial stormtrooper in the area. He then looks for stormtrooper tracks(knows the shape and size of an averagestormtrooper boot, and represents tracking ability). After following this track he sees the stormtrooper in the distance, the stormtrooper is unaware at this point. The ranger is camoed. The ranger beforehand has devised his plan of attack, an attack which would be devastating to the stormtrooper. (Ranged) The ranger pulls out his rifleand carefully aims his rifleto the back of the head right underneath the helmet, stilll keeping in mind that the stormtrooper is still unaware, and fires the surprise shot and kills the stormtrooper. (Melee) The ranger pulls out his vibroblade, walks slowly towards the stormtrooper using the trees and bushes as cover(since theyresemblehis camo)and strikes the stormtrooper in the head or back once in rangethereby killing him. If the attack doesn't kill him and then spooks the stormtrooper, the ranger is no longer able to use /sneakattack because any further preemptive advantage by the rangeris lost(unless they exit combat and successfully hide again).

Your comment highlighted in yellow above feeds off this same logic.

Star Wars does have cloaking abilities like the Predator (it's not a total invis). It's mentioned briefly in ESB, and I'm a little shocked it's not in SWG. Maybe we should push more towards that (with the graphical representation), with the effects you can't be tab targeted, but only by mouse. For NPC and mobs, have a roll check and it cuts the argo range down to 32m. Also include a -25 to hit mod (at master) and we should be good to go.

For in city cloak, I personally feel that should go to smugglers. They're the profession who needs hiding in towns.

And make it something the armorsmith crafts (with no charges) Make it infinite, and our conseal rating determines if we are seen or not.

---

NRaas wrote:

"with /conceal on you have all the effects of /maskscent automatically, plus you get the negative to hit bonus, and it is a wicked negative to-hit bonus."

Ok... The reason I seperated /maskscent out, was because if we include it in the /conceal skill we run the risk of the developers associated it with the camoflauge skill value.

If command is kept seperate, we are guaranteed that the skill will continue to use the maskscent skill modifier.

My suggestion is that the /maskscent applied to other players be associated with the camoflauge skill. That way, you would need to be a Master Ranger to apply a Master Scout level of /maskscent to another player.

Fair enough. I was going with convenience of not having to do both, but you have a better grasp of all the game mechanics and I see your point. I think the more important thing in that statement anyways is that the negative to-hit bonus should be rather large.

"but once they do finally land that first or second hit, your /conceal is broken immediately since now that they've hit you they can spot you easier since they've "tagged" you."

Hmmm...Even if you caught a glimpse ofa concealed playeronce, it does not stand that you can locate him easily the next time you look.

Anyways, we would need to chuck out the /sneakattack request if we did it this way, as there would be little reason not to perform the action everytime you enter combat, if the concealment was going to drop anyways.

My idea here is it offers a way for other players/MOBs to cancel out what might be viewed as a heuge overpowering skill if it is infact a large bonus and it isn't easily broken. I think of FPS games I play where the player's skins are all cammo and it is a jungle map, it's easy to hide, but once you spot someone who is hiding, you start shooting at them andthey have to move which makes it much easier to hit them. IMO, /sneakattack isn't a very "outdoorsman" skill, but a "manhunter" skill more like bountyhunters. it would be cool, but I don't think it fits into the vision that the devs have outlined for us.

"Furthermore, attacking a creature in the wild while /concealed would confuse the creature for some time since they would be unsure of where to attack being that they can't quite see or smell you."

I can go with that...A little lag time to get a couple shots in before the creature locates you.

"that it would make sense that range would have an effect on the effectiveness of this skill too."

Interesting suggestion...

But come to think about it, don't accuracy modifiers on weapons perform that action already? And the effect would be rather detrimental to the melee players among us.

I see accuracy with a weapon and being able to target an object that you may or may not be able to see two different things. A good marksman may be able to shoot a can off of a fence at 50 feet, but if that marksman knows the can is there, but can't see it very well, wouldn't it be harder to hit? Bring that marksman up to the fence where the can is more easily distingushable from the background (or whatever) he'd be able to pop that can square in the middle.

[Edit: Added last paragraph... Darn Submit. ]

Message Edited by NRaas on 01-10-2004 02:03 PM

---

"/sneakattack isn't a very "outdoorsman" skill, but a "manhunter" skill more like bountyhunters."

Perhaps a name change to say /firststrike would be alleviate the issue a bit.

"but if that marksman knows the can is there, but can't see it very well, wouldn't it be harder to hit?"

Aye, it would be, and that is what the "to-hit" modifier reflects.

"Bring that marksman up to the fence where the can is more easily distingushable from the background"

You are presuming that getting closer would make a concealed player more visible. I would thinka sufficiently knowledgable concealer would blend into the background from any distance.

"For in city cloak, I personally feel that should go to smugglers."

For some reason, I was thinking the same thing last night. Bizarre.

---

NRaas wrote:

"/sneakattack isn't a very "outdoorsman" skill, but a "manhunter" skill more like bountyhunters."

Perhaps a name change to say /firststrike would be alleviate the issue a bit.

I read your idea of /firststrike in the other thread, and if we replace that with /sneakattack, I can go along with that. Not that much different realy, but putting a timer on it and if the opponent can break it by catching on and initiating his attack first, then it is more fitting.

"but if that marksman knows the can is there, but can't see it very well, wouldn't it be harder to hit?"

Aye, it would be, and that is what the "to-hit" modifier reflects.

I give up on this point since I didn't care about it in the first place, my love for a good arguement keeps me going.

"Bring that marksman up to the fence where the can is more easily distingushable from the background"

You are presuming that getting closer would make a concealed player more visible. I would thinka sufficiently knowledgable concealer would blend into the background from any distance.

dang, so you imagine a ranger can grab some animal hides and meat, mix it into a colored paste and paint his body and others to exactly replicate the background like some mime who paints his body to look like a brick wall, all you can see of him is his eyes? But whatever, like I said, I give up. I'm just trying to make It too complicated.