Ranger Archive
Thread: Talk of merging Ranger & SL
Kinshi wrote:
This doesnt need to devolve people..if it does, we might as well give up now and forget about anything changing.
Go back to page 1 and re-read my RL examples of the R/L examples of how Rangers and SLs are the same thing.
Some of ya have a vison of rangers as being Aragorn or Robinhood, or mountainmen and stuff like that..some ou are like that fine and I what I poropse lets them keep that, but a huge portion of us look at ourselves as paramilitary, special forces with superb outdoor survival skills, not just a bunch of meat wholesalers.
Some of ya have a John Wayne view of SL..a real 'True Grit', 'Guns of Navaorne' thing going on and cant see how a bunch of wilderness guys fit in that.
All you have to do is look at say NAvy Seals or Army Rangers or Marine Recon..and you see ALL of Ranger and Squad Leader embodied in those r/l professions.
Fact is both sides of this equation have something to offer the other..new ways of looking at the world, new ways of thinking and doing things and better yet, we dont have to totally upend all we have now to get this done.
Please open your minds to the possibilities..I think this can be worked out into something SLs and Rangers can agree on..wont be easy..but its doable and id rather go thru an effort that at least has a chance of being accepted by the devs than holding out for a 'pie in the sky' revamp.
hey i agree. And I apologize for getting out of hand, and into a near forum "slugfest", but, well, my sig is my disclaimer.
I agree, with you Kinshi. I think this has more possibility of coming to fruition than anything else. And if the Devs weren't really considering it, well, ooops, cause they probably are now
I've always thought that SL would be cool to be, but not if i had to give up ranger. so i'd be fairly content in a well planned and executed merger.
Like i said in response to BioEngine. a lot of you people*cough*rangers*cough* keep speaking in terms of "should be" and "wants", well i'm adressing reality, and so is Kinshi. Lets look at this seriously because it may be our only hope, unless of course you think this game is going to be around for another 2 years....
SickSix wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
Quite honestly I don't know as much about rangers as most full time rangers... (though I do play a ranger on wanderhome) But I do play SL and have played SL for a long long long long long time (about the same length of Time I have been a Riflebeing... since launch) and I do know SL so I am kinda finding it funny that you all think you know what SLs are the same way you find me about Rangers.
after reading the new manual entry on Rangers though I withdraw my pc combat complaint (though I think rangers with Creature only mods could still participate in the GCW)
*new def'n in the manual*
Ranger: Adventurer well-suited to travel, tracking, and defending others in combat.
Requirement: Master Scout (Scout)
now that i have vanquished you, let's talk about what is needed to get SL's interested in Ranger.
would HTFBs that offered even more healing enhancements, and even possible defense bonuses not be something a Combat leader would want?
Does a leader not conduct recon to see what is ahead of his/her troops? AreaTrack would fit nicely there.
Also, may I add that i think i heard SL recently got told that their mods will no longer apply in PvP. Kinda restricting you guys more to PvE. And half of PvE is Creature combat. Would it not be cool for a SL to be able to apply states to creatures to make it easier for his/her troops to kill? Traps would do that.
I think, once some of your skills are fixed and made the way they should be, we would have something to Offer to those skeptical SL's out there.
well... we really don't need more states to vanquish creatures as SL. Volleyfire and Steady Aim are probably the best group specials in the game.a 15% increase in all damage delivered by the group, the reduced chance of missing, the increased damage on top of the 15% for having higher accuracy all lead to creatures dead in 1 to 2 shots by the entire group. Most SLs have another combat profession that allows them to place states (unless of course they are rifleman )
formup of course was nerf'd mostly due to Jedi exploiting it... They just need to stop it as a helpful action rather then removing it from pvp.
There really is not much that SL needs or wants from ranger.... Just ranger needs and wants from SL.
SickSix wrote:
now that i have vanquished you, let's talk about what is needed to get SL's interested in Ranger.
j/k on the vanquished thing...... well, half joking
Ackehece wrote:
There really is not much that SL needs or wants from ranger.... Just ranger needs and wants from SL.
well then help us get fixed so we dont try to comsume SL
Ackehece wrote:
Don't think have said I surrender .. I just allowed that rangers now have a combat role according to official documents about the game. I do not thinkthat SLneed nor want to mergewith Rangers. If anything I see it as Rangers wanting to merge into SL. SL works, It works well, it just could work a lot better with some thought and care.
SmedleyLlama wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
Don't think have said I surrender .. I just allowed that rangers now have a combat role according to official documents about the game. I do not thinkthat SLneed nor want to mergewith Rangers. If anything I see it as Rangers wanting to merge into SL. SL works, It works well, it just could work a lot better with some thought and care.
Unless I'm mistaken, this is just a simple discussion, at this time, about the viability of the idea. I believe you have made your point that you are opposed to the idea. So, is there any chance the discussion could continue now? The SLs have been invited to stop by and post their thoughts and I'm sure they will. Unless, of course, you're bucking for SL Correspondent as well?
Came over as an SL not as a Rifleman ^_- and no need for a SL correspondent... the current one is just fine ^_^
Ackehece wrote:
Came over as an SL not as a Rifleman ^_- and no need for a SL correspondent... the current one is just fine ^_^
Fair enough. It was when you began speaking for all SLs that I got confused.
LOL omg, that's just.....sad...
Ackehece wrote:
Oh believe me I try to help everyone.
ask Owen what I wanted them to get out of the CU... I did not directly want cover and conceal shot I wanted to keep our AOE's and give cover etc to rangers... But they removed the one and gave us the other do I fought to keep em (ransom for my beloved AOEs). I wanted rangers to get generic combat mods... (probably the same set of mods that smugglers have.) Not sure you need specials as you can get specials with the other combat class you pick up to reach CL 80 (maybe 1 or 2 specials....) With crosscert'd weapons you really have no need of a "specific" ranger weapon. But of course that would be nice as well.
now i just hate the devs more. i don't know how you Corrs manage to put up with just being blatantly ignored and not listened to.....
Ackehece wrote:
ask Owen what I wanted them to get out of the CU...
or ask Phenix-- I was there too, you know Ack. Mostly trying to avoid hugs from you, but I was there nonetheless.
Ackehece, in my experience, is very well mannered and is only trying to help in this scenario. Whether or not you've played as a Ranger, the fact is that there are a lot of intellectual barriers between SL and Ranger. Anyone who has an understanding of what it means to be either profession has just as much right to state what they think is the proper path to go down. Sadly, I think we're a little on edge right now, Ack, though it's hard to blame us.
Kin, I know all the historical examples that you cited were interesting, but the one step in your logic that you forgot was that in Star Wars Galaxies, everything is about a COMBINATIONof skills. Those examples that you cited would, in SWG terminology, be Ranger/SL (needing to spend points in each). A similar example is a sniper. Rangers by themselves are not snipers. Riflemen by themselves are not snipers. A Rifleman with a knowledge of camoflauge and evasionary tactics is a sniper-- a Ranger/Rifleman. In much the same way, the examples you list are hybrids, not single-class professions.
So to say that there are examples of people who possessed both Ranger and SL skills is grounds to combine them is like saying Rangers should be combined with Rifleman, since they are the two sides of the "sniper". Thus, while I respect your examples and your ideas, I think both rest on slightly skewed logic.
That being said, I do think it would be fasterand easier for the developers to do this. That does make it extremely likely. But I've seen what happens when SOE places quantity of changes over quality of changes and I think that any combination would, in the long run hurt our professions (both SL and Ranger) more than waiting would.
I'll explain. So lets' say smugglers get their revamp within the year. So around January, they should be working on us (hopefully). Now simply combining the two professions would take only a few months. 6 tops, I'd say. That, of course, assumes they do nothing but change the text and skill requirements, and do no bug fixes. But that's it. That's our last revamp for a while. No bug fixes, no skills being changed. Merger means abandonment for both professions. However, if we stay on point and make them focus on CHANGING the skills, we'll wait a year and a half for a better vision of Ranger, but it will be one that we'll be happy with.
Rangers and SL might be combined but SW:G will be a better game if we then about constructing new ideas rather than spackling together old ones. It might take longer, but if nobody is playing the monster hybrid after the merger, then all the time saved will be for naught for the players who cared about those professions.
SickSix wrote:
BioEngine wrote:
Ok, we are not creature only. For one, our camo works against NPCs. For two, we can areatrack players. For three, we can areatrack npcs. For four, /rescue "did" work against NPCs attacking a target player.
lol, i KNOW that. I'm a ranger too. I but the fact is that we are only viable against creatures. some of you keep speaking in terms of what is/was "intended" or "should be" but i'm merely addressing reality.
What I am talking about the GCW for is this: We need basic speed, defense, and accuracy modifiers. We need to be able to make factional connections with groups such as the Ewoks, Dantarians, Wookies, Jawas, Sand People, and other planet-specific wilderness-inhabiting "factions" in a way that we can acquire their assitance in battles against your opposite faction. I would think that this could take the form of the Smuggler's ability to converse with both factions, while belonging to one. We could do quests to secure their help, in the form of a squadron of the group's warriors to be stored as a control device in your datapad. You would only be able to call them within the same week that the tasks were completed.
um THAT WOULD TOTALLY ROCK!!!! Owen you need to jump all over this!
Just a rough idea, though. May not be the way to go. However, Antarian Rangers did participate in the GCW.
In my opinion, this is definitely doable in combination with the "planet revamp," and the GCW revamp.
If we share an interest with other groups in surviving outside of the comforts of towering cities, then we should "speak the same language."
As for the merging, consider this--as a player who really enjoyed playing the game as a Ranger/SL, I am against this. Such a change would basically give me my old template with a ton of skill points left over and yet I don't believe it is a good thing for this game. I have mixed both professions with other skill sets as well. They are very different playstyles even though they are quite complementary and have some parallels. Right now, a merger would probably even hurt the majority of SLs (prereqs being what they are) and it would give a lot of Rangers skills they don't really want (and many of them wouldn't use). I'd probably be a happier player if they just threw some random combat mods into Ranger and left the rest as is then seeing them mishmashed into one profession (even though they both could really use a revamp).
As for the CU, I actually enjoy it quite a bit. I agree it's not perfect but most of my problems with it are things that can be addressed with somewhat minor modifications (like the meatbag creatures that many things have become, although I still find that some creatures do have unique traits so it's not a requirement). It might have taken a while to get it out and they probably rushed it more than they should have but sometimes the Developers are not allowed to make all the decisions. It's not exactly what I was expecting (or maybe even hoping for) but I do definitely enjoy it.
It's true that the Ranger Revamp (or however it comes) can't please everyone. But one can hope that it will be fun for many of the current Rangers and most of the new Rangers who decide to join in. After two years of waiting, I'd rather wait some more than get a bastardized profession. And I believe that merging SL and Ranger would not end up with anything other than a bastardized profession. It's like using a bandaid when you really need stitches.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Ackehece wrote:
ask Owen what I wanted them to get out of the CU...
or ask Phenix-- I was there too, you know Ack. Mostly trying to avoid hugs from you, but I was there nonetheless.
Ackehece, in my experience, is very well mannered and is only trying to help in this scenario. Whether or not you've played as a Ranger, the fact is that there are a lot of intellectual barriers between SL and Ranger. Anyone who has an understanding of what it means to be either profession has just as much right to state what they think is the proper path to go down. Sadly, I think we're a little on edge right now, Ack, though it's hard to blame us.
Kin, I know all the historical examples that you cited were interesting, but the one step in your logic that you forgot was that in Star Wars Galaxies, everything is about a COMBINATION of skills. Those examples that you cited would, in SWG terminology, be Ranger/SL (needing to spend points in each). A similar example is a sniper. Rangers by themselves are not snipers. Riflemen by themselves are not snipers. A Rifleman with a knowledge of camoflauge and evasionary tactics is a sniper-- a Ranger/Rifleman. In much the same way, the examples you list are hybrids, not single-class professions.
So to say that there are examples of people who possessed both Ranger and SL skills is grounds to combine them is like saying Rangers should be combined with Rifleman, since they are the two sides of the "sniper". Thus, while I respect your examples and your ideas, I think both rest on slightly skewed logic.That being said, I do think it would be faster and easier for the developers to do this. That does make it extremely likely. But I've seen what happens when SOE places quantity of changes over quality of changes and I think that any combination would, in the long run hurt our professions (both SL and Ranger) more than waiting would.
I'll explain. So lets' say smugglers get their revamp within the year. So around January, they should be working on us (hopefully). Now simply combining the two professions would take only a few months. 6 tops, I'd say. That, of course, assumes they do nothing but change the text and skill requirements, and do no bug fixes. But that's it. That's our last revamp for a while. No bug fixes, no skills being changed. Merger means abandonment for both professions. However, if we stay on point and make them focus on CHANGING the skills, we'll wait a year and a half for a better vision of Ranger, but it will be one that we'll be happy with.
Rangers and SL might be combined but SW:G will be a better game if we then about constructing new ideas rather than spackling together old ones. It might take longer, but if nobody is playing the monster hybrid after the merger, then all the time saved will be for naught for the players who cared about those professions.
QFE.
While I hope your timeline is wrong, I agree with most of what you say here. I was trying to say something similar but my brain isn't working too good right now.
As for some other people here, try and calm down a bit (really, this applies to quite a few threads these days but I haven't really had the urge to post much before this thread--such a change greatly affects my two favorite professions in the game and I'd rather this thread continued to some rational conclusion instead of getting it locked). This is an idea. Some will argue that it is a good idea, others will argue that it is a bad idea. If you disagree with something someone has said, give reasons for the disagreement. Try not to attack/insult someone over an idea you disagree with (although do provide counterarguments to the idea in a controlled manner). A lot of people on the SWG forums (most likely including many of the Devs) will not be completely up to date on all the issues in every forum (or even with many of the issues in game that have been around since the beginning of time). That doesn't mean that they can't contribute to a discussion. And politely showing them the flaws in their argument will only give you practice in doing the same for the Devs (if not doing so at the same time). And remember that just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are uninformed on the issue--there are quite a few Rangers who wish for a creature centric role. I personally prefer a more universal role but not everyone needs to agree with that to post here.
Now, though, I'm not so sure I hate it. Although, I think that's because I see it happening more as a folding in of SL into Ranger. Since I'm a Ranger, this notion is then not quite as offensive. I'm sure I'd be peeved if they took all of ranger and shuved it into one line of SL.
What I DO know is that I'm open to discussing this with the Devs.
Huh, I find it funny that I feel this way. I would usually get all mad and steamed up over something like this.