Ranger Archive
Thread: So are rangers going to get screwed over with health bar in CU or not
Page 5 of 5
WildBil2Me
Sat Mar 26, 2005 2:14 pm
#54
BioEngine wrote:
Ok, I've seen some issues, and here are my thoughts on 'em.
3) We won't receive the benefit of 2 combat professions mastered.
We won't be able to even master 1 after the CU if we want to keep Master Ranger, and I do want to keep
Master Ranger very much. I have been forced to take a Combat Profession, because we do not have any
weapon proficiencies nor do we have defenses versus certain status effects like every other profession.
If we are given a bonus to hit and damage creatures, then with WHAT mind you are we to do it with? This
is pathetic.
This is a statement I read alot in regards to the CU. As its currently laid out Ranger can Master one combat profession and Master Ranger if they so choose.
Ranger requires 140 SP.
Weapon Masteries require 106 SP.
That's 246 leaving 4SP for whatever ... granted that's not alot but yes Mastery is there. (I recognize people have SP invested in FS skills but as of right now those are independant of this.)
While we will not be able to master hybrid professions like Smuggler, Commando and BH etc.we will still be able to master the "Weapon" professions.
I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but I just wanted to clarify it for anyone who might have misread it.
Nemo0
Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:52 pm
#55
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
******lots of other quote portions deleted as it is less relevant now******
My post was in response to the red portion above. I was saying that Ranger alone is capable of winning fights with high level creatures and NPCs. The time feature is a little bit of a moot point as I've seen duels last until buffs wore off.
I'm just a little skeptical... If you only use Ranger skills for combat related (traps) and only CDEF pistol/rifle/carbine (no combat professions whatsoever) then I think it's impossible to kill a NS?
I was under the assumption NS had 100% resistances against all but LS and stunI believe... And traps can't be used against a NPC. So please enlighten me how you did it... It sounds interesting.
But, to cover the amount of time it takes, it takes me less time to do it than it would take for a single duel between two combat stacked, buffed, and armored players to end (well, two decent ones who know what they are doing). It does take me longer than a master combat profession to kill the same thing, though (but I do take less damage than most of them). I am talking on the order of minutes per kill (so well over 1k HAM per minute, much higher than the PvP doods that JB is referring to).
I think the doods that JB was referring to do higher damage then 1K HAM/minute, but because of the buffs it has almost no influence/doesn't make a difference.
But how you can do more then 1k HAM dmg per minut still eludes me, if only using a CDEF weapon and traps.
As for buffs and armor, no I do not need any to do this stuff. If I use buffs and armor, my kill rate can go up exponentially. I can stand next to a lair and use grenades (C12s) if I really want to and that goes quite quickly (around 1k damage per grenade in an area).
Thats whenyou're using the combat profession...
The only requirements I need to kill things as a Ranger are that the enemy does not use ranged attacks (as most things this level can incap me in one or two hits) and that I can somehow keep the enemy at range (i.e. it's a lot harder to do this with gurrecks than with rancors but most melee only NPCs are fair game).I agree that it is possible on the lower end of the NPC range (thugs and a like), but NS, moon clan, corsec and such I think are impossible.
Nightsisters have varying levels of resistance to different damage types. Some have 100% resistance to some damage types but there are many that have much lower resistances. They don't run faster than a player and they don't have ranged attacks (well, they sometimes use force attacks at range but the lower level ones don't do this too often and I don't think I've been hit by a force attack past 50m). And they will sometimes stop attacking and start running back towards their spawn point (giving you the chance to make a bit more room). So, basically, you just kite them and they will fall in the end. And, if they get to close, you use burstrun to add a little distance. The main danger is running into a log or having your maskscent/camo break and drawing more agro (creatures do run faster than players but traps can be used to slow them down).
As for the doods, they can cause more than 1k damage a minute but JB was referring to the total size of the HAM bars times the number of kills (i.e. the buff healing and such isn't taken into account). As the duels can easily last 10 minutes and finding player targets is usually slower than in the wild, this usually results in a damage rate as JB defines it much lower than 1k a minute (given that you get the PvP players using really high end loot weaponry, I think even JB might lose out if you took healed damage into account and threw away all the PvP damage reduction).
As for 1k damage a minute, that corresponds to under 17 damage per second. A good CDEF can beat that after a speed slice and powerup (might not even need those). I personally was using a slightly better gun (as Novice Marksman gives you slightly better certs) but the CDEF can still do it. I also happen to have a prenerf republic blaster (i.e. no cert required for use), although I rarely use it (light armor piercing energy weapon with a dps significantly higher than a CDEF, new ones require a pistoleer cert so that doesn't really count). A master of a combat profession can do more damage than that per second, though (it just doesn't go through all the PvP defenses quite so nicely).
As for the grenades, those are a basic cert (i.e. everyone gets it). Someone who still has 250/250 skill points remaining can still use C12 grenades, buffs, and 90% armor (you can also use the higher level ones but they do almost no damage). A Master Ranger's only advantage here is the +10 melee and ranged defense at Master (but he will still be marginally better at it than even a Master Marksman). You do not need any skill at all to do this. It is combat but it's not really part of any combat profession.
NPCs are definately possible if they follow the conditions I listed. If they can't hit you, they can't win. NPCs don't run faster than players so you can always keep a constant distance away (as long as you don't slow down on a hill due to lack of TN). If the NPCs are melee only (like Nightsisters when they don't use their force powers [which is quite often on the lower level ones]), they will never be able to hit you. If the NPC can't hit you, they can't win. If you can hit them, you can win. The same is true in PvP but players will use things like burstrun and running out of your range, making it much harder.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:32 am
#56
Nemo0 wrote:
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
As for buffs and armor, no I do not need any to do this stuff. If I use buffs and armor, my kill rate can go up exponentially. I can stand next to a lair and use grenades (C12s) if I really want to and that goes quite quickly (around 1k damage per grenade in an area).
Thats whenyou're using the combat profession...
The only requirements I need to kill things as a Ranger are that the enemy does not use ranged attacks (as most things this level can incap me in one or two hits) and that I can somehow keep the enemy at range (i.e. it's a lot harder to do this with gurrecks than with rancors but most melee only NPCs are fair game).I agree that it is possible on the lower end of the NPC range (thugs and a like), but NS, moon clan, corsec and such I think are impossible.
As for the grenades, those are a basic cert (i.e. everyone gets it). Someone who still has 250/250 skill points remaining can still use C12 grenades, buffs, and 90% armor (you can also use the higher level ones but they do almost no damage). A Master Ranger's only advantage here is the +10 melee and ranged defense at Master (but he will still be marginally better at it than even a Master Marksman). You do not need any skill at all to do this. It is combat but it's not really part of any combat profession.
Oh. That's something I didn't know. I assumed, cause I couldn't find it, that use of grenades was only for at least those who have certain marksman/brawlers skill and the elite combat class.
But with the CU coming up, no info is give if this will still stay the same. If it is, I'm going to get myself a crate with C12 grenades to see if it helps with my gameplay.
Thanks!
NPCs are definately possible if they follow the conditions I listed. If they can't hit you, they can't win. NPCs don't run faster than players so you can always keep a constant distance away (as long as you don't slow down on a hill due to lack of TN). If the NPCs are melee only (like Nightsisters when they don't use their force powers [which is quite often on the lower level ones]), they will never be able to hit you. If the NPC can't hit you, they can't win. If you can hit them, you can win. The same is true in PvP but players will use things like burstrun and running out of your range, making it much harder.
About that, there is nodoubt. If you cant be hit, they can't win. My problem lies inherently in the fact that as CH pets (or battledroid for that matter) do not listen very good. I had a good example yesterday again. Told a probot to attack a lair. When the creatures came out I targeted one and told the probot to attack the creature. Probot did acknowledge but kept firing on the lair.... Gave the command to attack the creature 2, 3 times more without result. As a result of this problem, my droid was dismantled and I got incapped. This was on TC btw where I'm building my Ranger char, so low to non-existing TN atm.
With this I can't hit them, which also means I cannot win.
Ah well, I'll get some C12s on TC to experiment with it.
Owen-Lars
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:04 am
#57
Tarnak_Archvold Wrote:
"But that do not change the fact that we are a support class, admittedly one from another era, but still a support class non the less"
You cant pigeon hole ranger into one role or set up simply because we have a broader base than most other professions. Other hybrids also so.
Rangers currently is a combat class, a support class, a crafting class, a gathering class. Thats what makes us who we are, we are not one thing, we are 4 tiers based off another 4 with many knowledge areas to justify skills in. No direction is offlimits as the possibilities and potential are so massive.
And as for the CU team not being trust worthy? 
It has nothing to do with trust heh. The CU team will do the best we and community possibly can to get ranger the most favourable outcome to CU possible. End of the day though we are testers and only testers, not devs. The final call comes down to the devs and if they choose to blatently ignore us, they will do soandno matter how much we screen will change that. Its safe to say though that the team is in top form and all our issues andproblems will behighlighted as best they can, that doesnt mean the devs will choose to listen or more importantly act upon them though.
Owen-Lars
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:13 am
#58
Dariane, Smuggler DOES have combat aspects therefore can be seen as a combat class. Not a pure combat class like rifleman or other classes but still a combat class. The only difference is that smuggler has more to offer than JUST combat skills. Thats the reason why the combat aspects of smuggler have been included in the CU. The smuggler revamp (to address smuggling and slicing) are not part of the CU, they are being handled by a different team working on the smuggler revamp.
The same can be said about ranger, we have combat aspects therefore we are a combat class, however we have much more to offer than your run of the mill combat class. The reason why smuggler combat aspects were included and ranger did not is the ranger combat orientation needs far more work, not just a revamp, but a rework. Im not saying we are going away from creature only, i simply dont know that, however its clear that ranger needs more work than could be possibly allotted during the CU.
Thepoint should not beif we area combat class or not, but that there simply isnt enoughresources availble (both in terms of team resources and time allocation) to address the ranger issues.
A half assed revamp in the cu would acomplish little as the underlying problems would still be with us, we need afull revamp a reworkand that simply isnt possible in the CU.Yes if more resources were availablewe would be in (our arguments and points in the cu forumsimply cannot be denied orjustifiablythrown out), as would ch, another combat class.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:14 am
#59
Nemo0 wrote:
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Nemo0 wrote:
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
As you said yourself: Ranger allows you to SURVIVE. Question you need to ask yourself: would Ranger SUFFICE to kill them _without_ the help of a combat profession? I think the answer would be: no, you cannot! Hence: Ranger in itself is not a combat class!
Nemo0 wrote:
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Trying to make the point here, that Ranger, on it's own, is NOT capable of doing fights. Try dropping everything but MR and you understand what I'm trying to say.
Would you consider someone a Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader (i.e. no elite damage dealing profession) close enough to Master Ranger on its own? With this configuration, I would regularly go Rancor and Nightsister hunting unbuffed and unarmored. Without my Ranger skills, I would have died a lot more often (traps, terrain negotiation, and maskscent/conceal). It takes a while to kill stuff but a Master Ranger with a CDEF can kill some quite high level stuff with no extra combat skills.
Sorry I didn't make it clear but I meant I did this stuff solo. And I won most of the time. I even managed to get some decent loot that way. Ranger and Scout skills are what allowed me to kill the stuff. If the enemy can't hit me, they can't win. With Rancors, this means a lot of traps. With Nightsisters, this means keeping out of range with TN. In both cases, my maskscent or camo allows me to move around without worrying about extra agro as much. Doing enough damage takes a while but it is possible to do if you have enough patience.
Great. Now we're at a full circle again.
I reacted to JB cause he posted he could do it within an hour. You now say it takes time (=patience) to do.
Hence my point is made.If you don't understand, try reading the post and reply sequence...
One question remains: were you buffed and wearing armor ?
Cause if you were, likely, according to CU, you might not be able to wear it anymore...
My post was in response to the red portion above. I was saying that Ranger alone is capable of winning fights with high level creatures and NPCs. The time feature is a little bit of a moot point as I've seen duels last until buffs wore off.
I'm just a little skeptical... If you only use Ranger skills for combat related (traps) and only CDEF pistol/rifle/carbine (no combat professions whatsoever) then I think it's impossible to kill a NS?
I was under the assumption NS had 100% resistances against all but LS and stunI believe... And traps can't be used against a NPC. So please enlighten me how you did it... It sounds interesting.
But, to cover the amount of time it takes, it takes me less time to do it than it would take for a single duel between two combat stacked, buffed, and armored players to end (well, two decent ones who know what they are doing). It does take me longer than a master combat profession to kill the same thing, though (but I do take less damage than most of them). I am talking on the order of minutes per kill (so well over 1k HAM per minute, much higher than the PvP doods that JB is referring to).
I think the doods that JB was referring to do higher damage then 1K HAM/minute, but because of the buffs it has almost no influence/doesn't make a difference.
But how you can do more then 1k HAM dmg per minut still eludes me, if only using a CDEF weapon and traps.
As for buffs and armor, no I do not need any to do this stuff. If I use buffs and armor, my kill rate can go up exponentially. I can stand next to a lair and use grenades (C12s) if I really want to and that goes quite quickly (around 1k damage per grenade in an area).
Thats whenyou're using the combat profession...
The only requirements I need to kill things as a Ranger are that the enemy does not use ranged attacks (as most things this level can incap me in one or two hits) and that I can somehow keep the enemy at range (i.e. it's a lot harder to do this with gurrecks than with rancors but most melee only NPCs are fair game).I agree that it is possible on the lower end of the NPC range (thugs and a like), but NS, moon clan, corsec and such I think are impossible.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:23 am
#60
Owen-Lars wrote:
Dariane, Smuggler DOES have combat aspects therefore can be seen as a combat class. Not a pure combat class like rifleman or other classes but still a combat class. The only difference is that smuggler has more to offer than JUST combat skills. Thats the reason why the combat aspects of smuggler have been included in the CU. The smuggler revamp (to address smuggling and slicing) are not part of the CU, they are being handled by a different team working on the smuggler revamp.
Hmm, I think I did say exactly that, didn't I?
The same can be said about ranger, we have combat aspects therefore we are a combat class, however we have much more to offer than your run of the mill combat class. The reason why smuggler combat aspects were included and ranger did not is the ranger combat orientation needs far more work, not just a revamp, but a rework. Im not saying we are going away from creature only, i simply dont know that, however its clear that ranger needs more work than could be possibly allotted during the CU.
Hmm... So ... in a perfect world, when the Smuggler Revamp Team (SRT) is finished with the for the Smuggler even more needed revamp then for the Ranger, they will be put on the RRT? (Ranger Revamp Team)? If it only could be true
Thepoint should not beif we area combat class or not, but that there simply isnt enoughresources availble (both in terms of team resources and time allocation) to address the ranger issues.
2b or not 2b is for me a non-issue. I know where I currently stand. I do agree with the fact that a revamp of Ranger, like Smuggler, like CH and if I may say so Musician/Dancer too, is way more work to be handled together withthe CU.
But only because they decided to bring out another expansion
A half assed revamp in the cu would acomplish little as the underlying problems would still be with us, we need afull revamp a reworkand that simply isnt possible in the CU.Yes if more resources were availablewe would be in (our arguments and points in the cu forumsimply cannot be denied orjustifiablythrown out), as would ch, another combat class.For me the small issue remains about the traps and creatures. If creatures get scaled down, will traps be affected too? Or do we suddenly get uber traps, or such breaking code that traps won't work at all... To be honest, as I said few times in the CU thread already, Devs have a way of fixing something in one patch only to break it in the next...
Owen-Lars
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:30 am
#61
Thats what the CU testers are going to handle. If traps get borked then we will state this, test the hell out of it and get it on the list to be fixed, thats what we are there for. Effectiveness of traps is an issue and has been for a while now, hopefully this will be addressed too.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:43 am
#62
Owen-Lars wrote:
Thats what the CU testers are going to handle. If traps get borked then we will state this, test the hell out of it and get it on the list to be fixed, thats what we are there for. Effectiveness of traps is an issue and has been for a while now, hopefully this will be addressed too.
Thanks.. That's all I needed to know
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