Ranger Archive
Thread: Scouts/Ranger will get CL! Wootzor
darmokVtS
Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:55 am
#53
A good start but probably not enough to keep me in the ranger profession :-/. As defense mods (melee / ranged defense) are post-curb also a part of the "damage taken" equation (was quite easy to see for me when switching between unarmed and 2hand when I had unarmed IV and 2hand 3) I still feel Kope will not be able to fill the "Tank" role post curb (which he can with not even a remote problem as of current live system), this however is a role I need him for quite often... Well, I'll have to see what the tests with full templates will look like to decide this I guess ...
(There are more issues that I need to check for this decision, a tank who cannot *keep* aggro as he deals quite low damage - pure tkm - is also kinda useless so even if the defense part works out I probably still need to add some "offensive" melee stuff, most probably swordsmanboxes)
(There are more issues that I need to check for this decision, a tank who cannot *keep* aggro as he deals quite low damage - pure tkm - is also kinda useless so even if the defense part works out I probably still need to add some "offensive" melee stuff, most probably swordsmanboxes)
Message Edited by darmokVtS on 04-14-2005 04:00 PM
Calculus_Entropy
Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:02 am
#54
KaiRaene wrote:
Heres an interesting thought: What if I am a Master Ranger and decide to go TK and no longer be Rifleman? I drop Rifleman down to nothing and pick up novice brawler. What level will I be able to fight now? Gonna be interesting to see how it goes...
I was thinking something similar, but Paks pointed out that the damage you deal to a creature and the damage they deal to you depends on what your relative CL's are (did I get that right Wriggly Wook?). So, you might not be too gimped, you know? Plus, with the new CL weapon restrictions/certs, you could theoretically use a stronger weapon than a normal noob TKA. This actually sounds pretty good to me, in theory, as I change my combat profession almost monthly
.
Jolandir
Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:08 am
#55
OK! I love it. Thanks Devs, I must confess I didn't think you would even do this for us, but I am more then willing to eat my words. I deeply appriciate your reconsidering us. Thanks!!!!
Jolandir
Vorpaks
Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:41 am
#56
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
KaiRaene wrote:
Heres an interesting thought: What if I am a Master Ranger and decide to go TK and no longer be Rifleman? I drop Rifleman down to nothing and pick up novice brawler. What level will I be able to fight now? Gonna be interesting to see how it goes...
I was thinking something similar, but Paks pointed out that the damage you deal to a creature and the damage they deal to you depends on what your relative CL's are (did I get that right Wriggly Wook?). So, you might not be too gimped, you know? Plus, with the new CL weapon restrictions/certs, you could theoretically use a stronger weapon than a normal noob TKA. This actually sounds pretty good to me, in theory, as I change my combat profession almost monthly
I thought you meant Rooks when you said wriggling wook.. and then I read back.
I think you and Bill can state it much clearer than I can. But basically since Ranger does not give you a huge combat advantage it will mess with the con/level system and the scout xp you get.
For example, if you are a CL 10 your base xp amount is decided on that level. If you fight creatures of lower level you will get less xp, if you fight creatures of higher level you will get more xp. However, if all your levels are in Scout there is no was you are going to be strong enough to fight a level 10 creature. You will need to fight lower level creatures who will give you less xp. In a group whis problem goes away a bit, if you have some combat players in there who can deal out the damage you are missing.
Really our levels are more like medic levels. Neither Scouts or Medics can do damage to creatures - all our skills are geared towards survival/avoidance. The only difference is that medics do not need to damage creatures for xp - we do.
So there are definitely some problems we have to be aware and look at as we go forward.
My take on the situation was that we had a choice:
We could have no CL, no health bonus, get hit harder, do less damage but have balanced scout xp (based on our actual weapon/combat skill) and the correct con/level for the creature we are fighting.
Or we can have CL, health bonus, be able to take more damage and be able to hit harder but not be able to kill the creatures that give us the best xp solo and not see the correct con/levels for our ability.
Really the only thing we can do to figure out whether CL is better for us is to log on and test it. Then we can decide if we want to go back to them and ask to please change us back.
So go log on!For the future I like having CLs. We have been trying to get the developers to see us as a combat/combat support proession. To be that and to get the skills to support that in our revamp I really believe means that we have to be considered and balanced NOW with the other combat/combat support professions. THEN in our revamp we can get the skills and abilities that will give us the efficiency in combat to make the cons/levels work correctly.
In other words, this is the Framework for our powerful skills to come.
Rancorrider4
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:14 am
#57
"I really feal its a shame that the devs didn't communicate this to Owen though."
Very, VERY, good point.
Jolandir
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:16 am
#58
WildFil2Me wrote:
I don't want to rain on the parade. But there are implications here we need to be ready for and able to test.
With adjusted CL comes the ability to take on higher level creatures. Without the Combat skills to do anything though we're stuck.
You may not take as much damage, but you might also not deal enough to really make it worthwhile. I'm very happy to see health being added to the profession!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Well, to this I want to say of my two characters on TC EP3 one is a Rifleman/Scout/Ranger. Using only Rifleman as my combat profession (until the above goes in to effect then we will have to check it out and see) the main problem was not the ability to fight. Yes limited to one combat profession type but I have been able to fight white cons and yellows cons (if you watch the level of the yellow cons carefully), I have gone up the skill trees rather successfully without losing to many times. The limitation was obviously going to be how high of a level creature or npc Icould fight. This was obviously going to be severly limited by my health bar since I am not gaining any healthand by combatlevel not being granted toScout/Ranger.
Then yesterday they did something that I am not quit sure why, because is seems to ruin their entire concept of the CU. Their stated purpose is to remove god-players (those who can solo almost every creature and npc in the game) and to make each and every "combat profession" (since even with the above change from the devs does not make us a "combat profession") needed and having distinct roles, with well defined strenghts and weaknesses. They have suddenly made weapons totally, or just about totally dependent on level, not certification, and in one case race (Wookies with bowcasters and there are now three bowcasters). This means that if I can use a level 22 rifle (an E11) I can use also any other level 22 weapon even brawler weapons. And as far as I can tell with no damage reduction. Thus profession doesn't matter. I used successufully a LLC which up till yesterday I could not us at all because I didn't have the certification, but I can now, with seemingly the same capabilities as a BH.
So instead of being distinct roles, positions and abilities as a Rifleman I can basically use any weapon as long as I have the appropriate level to use it. Now I did not try brawler weapons myself, but I did read on planet discussions that many were able to be a brawler type and use ranged weapons seemingly just as effectively as ranged professions and ranged professionals apparently were finding they could use all brawler weapons and again apparently just as effectively as brawler types (Now I am not sure about moves granted in your profession as I did not test this yet, meaning the moves I get as a ranged combatant working with brawler type weapons onlybeing limited by range). Thus the real limiting factor will be if (and that is a big if), the current weapons rating is solely based upon level and not certifications in professions, the limiting factor will be only health. But this is still a major limiting factor. Now again why they would want to keep this current weapons rating is beyond me if they are still trying to achieve their stated goals.
Since the above mentioned quote does not, in itself state, they will give us an addition to our health bar, only to combat level, then we still have the problem of viability. Certainly more viable with the ability to have our combat level go up on aneven par with the so-called "combat professions".
Since you will still be, from the above quote that started off this thread, 2000 points behind the so-called "combat professions" we willnever be the greatest hunters nor of much help in the GCW except at the lower levels. Meaning you might have a level 54 combat rating (which I believe is the highest level in the game currently) but if you don't get the life to go with it is a very crippled level 54, because at this level the combat professionals will have at least 3000 added to their health, as opposed to 1000 that we can get with one so-called "combat profession". So I must I believe, at this point, we will be able to only add to our health 1000 as Master Rangers as opposed to say a dual Elite Professional in the "combat professions" which will add 3000 to their total health bar thus making it a 2000 difference (I must state that this is based upon wanting to be a Master Ranger and not just dabbling). But even if it turns out to be only a 1000 point difference that is still a major difference in survivability.
Thus I believe some of your concerns are ungrounded at this point, but other concerns are still just as much a concern as they were before we got to test the new CU. But if they change the weapons use back, then being limited to one so-called combat profession, is going to have more of an effect then it will have if the CU went live today the way it is.
Jolandir
Vorpaks
Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:55 am
#59
Jolandir wrote:
Then yesterday they did something that I am not quit sure why, because is seems to ruin their entire concept of the CU. Their stated purpose is to remove god-players (those who can solo almost every creature and npc in the game) and to make each and every "combat profession" (since even with the above change from the devs does not make us a "combat profession") needed and having distinct roles, with well defined strenghts and weaknesses. They have suddenly made weapons totally, or just about totally dependent on level, not certification, and in one case race (Wookies with bowcasters and there are now three bowcasters). This means that if I can use a level 22 rifle (an E11) I can use also any other level 22 weapon even brawler weapons. And as far as I can tell with no damage reduction. Thus profession doesn't matter. I used successufully a LLC which up till yesterday I could not us at all because I didn't have the certification, but I can now, with seemingly the same capabilities as a BH
Just some clarification:
Helios_SOE wrote:
Novock wrote:1. A new system will be brought in making weapons certed by level rather than proffession.Weapon certs can now be tied to a combat level + a specific skill box + a specific raceSo, all three of these scenarios could happen:1. Weapon is certed to anyone with a combat level of at least X2. Weapon is certed to anyone with a combat level of at least X AND have achieved Skill Box N3. Weapon is certed to anyone with a combat level of at least X AND have achieved Skill Box N AND is of race K.Most weapons currently fall into "1", some fall into "2" (mostly iconic and profression defining weapons) and very few (currently only bowcasters) fall into "3".
The fact that you can currently use any weapon is a bug. They need to add back in the certs in their appropriate place.
Calc mentioned above a reason why they may have done this. If I was a level 54 Rifleman and I wanted to level TKA I would start at novice brawler. However, all the creatures would react to me as if I were still a level 54 even though I could only do level 1 damage to them. So the ones who would give me the correct amount of xp (level 54) would be impossible to kill and the ones I could kill (level 1) would be so many levels below me they would hardly give me any xp. Now a level 54 Novice brawler could pick up an uncerted weapon that is usable at his level and be able to do damage to creatures that are closer to his correct level range. Whether or not this will work - I am not sure. Since xp is dependent on level you will be getting a lot of xp almost instantly to fill up those low level boxes, and you will still have the advantage of your high level HAM. Will this be balanced? We will have to see.
What it means for us is that as a Master Ranger I will have a certain amount of levels and will be able to use the uncertd weapons for that level. If I was happy with the damage output of the weapon I could never pick up anything beyond novice brawler or marksman and spend the rest of my points in say BE or CH or medic or a crafting or entertaining profession. Is this balanced? I am not sure. If they make an uncerted bowcaster I will be tempted to try it though!
I need to mention though that this is all hypothetical guessing on my part.
Who knows if this is really how they intend to do it?Arrrg. I hate it when a thread gets all stretched out.
What causes that?Message Edited by Vorpaks on 04-14-2005 11:57 AM
Oreet
Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:46 am
#60
WildBil2Me wrote:
I don't want to rain on the parade. But there are implications here we need to be ready for and able to test.
With adjusted CL comes the ability to take on higher level creatures. Without the Combat skills to do anything though we're stuck.
You may not take as much damage, but you might also not deal enough to really make it worthwhile. I'm very happy to see health being added to the profession!
Lets justcheck andmake sureit doesn't hurt us by creating a situation where we "mis-con" in the process.
/umbrella
ok guys, pack up the band and the giant Garfiled balloon, the parade's been post poned.
TomedNor
Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:56 am
#61
*looks at post CU plans*
*crosses out "run away from everything screaming like a schoolgirl"*
*deletes macro for above action*
*writes down "hunting"*
*crosses out "run away from everything screaming like a schoolgirl"*
*deletes macro for above action*
*writes down "hunting"*
Jalelreb
Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:28 am
#62
thank you owen-lars, and thank you all the other corrs that helped in this issue. it is much appreciated.
now back to the business of enjoying life again:0
again thank you guys and (gals)
Phenix1050
Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:47 am
#63
Very nice. It seems that they have no plans of going back on the newer more "in your face" level system. So Rangers getting the health increase is pretty much neccesary for us to be competitive. The good news is that if they also keep the level modifiers, we'll see Rangers dealing more damage with CDEFs than any other newb and we have pretty much been given every sign that in the future, we can ask for more combat-oriented skills and modifiers. Essentially this isn't saying "Rangers are a Combat Profession"...but it IS saying that they're leaning towards that (which is good, in my opinion). Perhaps the dual crossbown will be introduced?
As far as not being able to do the same damage,I think that'll work out due to the new level-based certs. Meaning someone who's just a Ranger may not have access to a lot of specials, but they will be able to equip higher-level weapons just with an investment in some combat skills (or possibly without them).
Either way, I see this as a positive-sum change for the Rangers, and a sign of good things to come.
SickSix
Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:53 am
#64
it's a step forward, and a very essential step. because without this, then we really had no hope of gettting anything else addressed.
so now, lets not get lost in the champagne and confetti, and keep on about the other issues. I would really like to see an In-Concept "Ranger Revamp" thread really really soon. but i guess that wont happen until after the CU goes live....
Almagill
Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:13 pm
#65
Owen-Lars wrote:Screw it heh, ill blag it tommorow.
Oh boy.. been there, done THAT! Far too often.
Worst case:
Night before night before major 4th year exam, sat up alll night 'revising'. Mostly playing SWG and some other game, actually.
Night before exam, got totally rat **sed in the Union bar, got home in time to leave for exam, arrived after everyone else was in, seated and waiting for the 'Turn Over Your Papers' bit.
Rattled through the exam in just over 25 minutes. (Expected min time, 1 1/2 hours) Fell asleep after checking and rechecking and rererererechecking answers but not being allowed to leave warm, stuffy exam hall till an hour after 'Turn Over Your Papers'....
Got an A- !!!!!
Still haven't a clue what some of my answers meant though. Go figure.
Best of luck