Ranger Archive
Thread: From a Commando to Rangers: Congrats! (but why the heck soe giving you OUR stuff?)
Secondly thinking that a Master Ranger/Master Rifleman will be equal to a Master Defender/Master Powers/Healer4000 in defences and general offences it a bit far fetched. I do not think SOE would be stupid enough to pack Ranger with so many defences to achieve that.
Tacwraith, I get that you was likely burned badly by DAOC. Nevertheless, not all games with stealth end in a stealth race. UO had stealth, and neither in the pre facet split days nor in my time in Felucia did I se any more advanced stealth then basic hiding used by PK's and then only if they had to start running.
Finley you will be challenged to find a more mature community than the current ranger community. In all our dreaming proposals of what rangers could have become, there was check and balances. And if you read the board now you will se rangers complaining that they fear we will become to much of FOTM template. What other profession complain about that? Some even complain if they are NOT a FOTM template.
So, if Ranger becomes over powered in some way you can be sure that we will tell the DEV's that we need to be nerfed, but until we se what hits TC it is to early to cry Nerf.
Just a few Thoughts as I have a Ranger Character and a Commando Character.
I personally am Looking foward to the Roles of Commando, Ranger, Squad Leader and Combat Medics / Docworking together in groups along with the other professions in Large scale PVP battles. You would have your Special forces types (Rangers), Heavy Gunners / Demo Experts(Commando) Squad Leaders and Medics all working together in groups which should make things very fun, IMO.
The point was brought up on the Commando forums that These types of remote traps and mines will probably be low damagebut have nice states and also be a testing grounds for bigger and better things to come for Commando, I certainly hope this is the case, and believe it will be.
uselessn00b wrote:
And there's the problem, Blixtev stated in his post that Rangers would do the demolitions... thats why commandos are pissed.
Mens_Rea wrote:
Just a few Thoughts as I have a Ranger Character and a Commando Character.
I personally am Looking foward to the Roles of Commando, Ranger, Squad Leader and Combat Medics / Docworking together in groups along with the other professions in Large scale PVP battles. You would have your Special forces types (Rangers), Heavy Gunners / Demo Experts(Commando) Squad Leaders and Medics all working together in groups which should make things very fun, IMO.
The point was brought up on the Commando forums that These types of remote traps and mines will probably be low damagebut have nice states and also be a testing grounds for bigger and better things to come for Commando, I certainly hope this is the case, and believe it will be.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Developers&message.id=70498#M70498
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Plus, why would commandos have demolitions anyway. Commandos are big firepower guys, demolitions are stealthy people who sneak in to places to wire them tpo explode. Commandos get missiles and grenades that kind of thing.
For a start, i was actually answering the previous poster who said that commando would be the demo experts.... you do not need to explain anything to me.
Why would some people think commando woulddo demolitions? Well,the commando explosives tree for a start... kinda difficult to blow stuff up without explosives. As i pointed out in another post, this is why many commandos appear to be angry, we don't know what WE are supposed to be., since this was something we thought was headed to us. And when you say heavy firepower... i do more damage with a pistol, but this isn't the right forum for that discussion.
But this is SWG, as has been frequently pointed out. You guys will not be the Antarian Rangers in the books, just like we are not the Republic Commandos... and right at the moment, there is a very great danger that you guys will fall into the same trap as commando and smugglerhas, believing you will get "X, Y and Z" when you end up with a very watered down version of "W". I hope that doesn't happen, but the precedent is already there.
These devices are not to be used in combat from what I can tell, but are placed in preparation for combat. All of theCommando weapons are used in combat.
Sounds pretty straight-forward to me.
There is a difference between Commandos and Demolitions Experts, as a military example.
uselessn00b wrote:
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Plus, why would commandos have demolitions anyway. Commandos are big firepower guys, demolitions are stealthy people who sneak in to places to wire them tpo explode. Commandos get missiles and grenades that kind of thing.
For a start, i was actually answering the previous poster who said that commando would be the demo experts.... you do not need to explain anything to me.
Why would some people think commando woulddo demolitions? Well,the commando explosives tree for a start... kinda difficult to blow stuff up without explosives. As i pointed out in another post, this is why many commandos appear to be angry, we don't know what WE are supposed to be., since this was something we thought was headed to us. And when you say heavy firepower... i do more damage with a pistol, but this isn't the right forum for that discussion.
But this is SWG, as has been frequently pointed out. You guys will not be the Antarian Rangers in the books, just like we are not the Republic Commandos... and right at the moment, there is a very great danger that you guys will fall into the same trap as commando and smugglerhas, believing you will get "X, Y and Z" when you end up with a very watered down version of "W". I hope that doesn't happen, but the precedent is already there.
You see you have fallen into the SWG Commando is a special forces trooper fallacy. The SWG Commando is a heavy weapons expert, that is why he wouldnt be a republic commando. A ranger would be.
A Commando needs to know about explosives because he has heavy weapons skills and grenades, not so he can sneak into an enemy base and mine it or rig it to explode. What you should be saying is, Commandos should get the work doen so that they truly are what they should be - Heavy Weapons troops.
Plus, at least commandos have working skills.
uselessn00b wrote:
But this is SWG, as has been frequently pointed out. You guys will not be the Antarian Rangers in the books, just like we are not the Republic Commandos... and right at the moment, there is a very great danger that you guys will fall into the same trap as commando and smugglerhas, believing you will get "X, Y and Z" when you end up with a very watered down version of "W". I hope that doesn't happen, but the precedent is already there.
Perhaps "Believing" is a little strong term. "Hoping" is probably closer to the mark. The In-Development thread is the first time the Rangers have seen ANYTHING that indicates the revamp is truly coming, and the details have stirred a lot of excitement.
But we aren't ignorant, either. I've seen the Smuggler threads vanish, and I've seen their reaction when Lucy yanked the football away with their Slicing system.
I think the biggest deal of this whole development is that for the longest time, it seemed the devs had no idea what the Rangers should BE. Even the Rangers are split on it. Ultimately, making a decision is better than making no decision at all. We now know where the devs want to take us. Even though some of us are not happy about it, and some of us are undecided, the Rangers now see where we are heading...even if it's only a watered down version.
tacwraith wrote:
masen read my post instead of skimming it.
Never did i say rangers were supposed to be the same as in DAOC. I compared the huge imbalance problem another class in DAOC brought into the game because of a skillset that SWG ranger is getting. It may sound really silly to you to think that putting bombs on the ground even when others can see them is overpowering but it is. And in DAOC the animist class proved just that. In PvP people quickly learned how to best exploit (there is no other word for it.. the game designers even admitted they never considered this would happen) multiple high damage static objects combined with excellent range damage and excellent utilities and defenses.
If you never played DAOC during the animist scurge let me just tell you this: imagine them being mdefender/mpowers/healer4000 jedi with access to rifleman sniper shot & T21 rifle AND on top of that... they have a minefield somewhere around them that they can practically insta-kill you with.
I mean just really think about it. If you can mix master ranger with another elite combat proffession you would pick rifleman or BH because they are the highest damage dealers in the game. as ranger you get stealth... now youre an invisible long range damage dealer. to make it worse you can place a minefield, now you are an invisible long range very high damage dealer with very high damage mine damage on top of that. and mines would be placed near you to be triggered as enemy rushes you or as the opening blow to an opponent. Either way both result in a simply massive damage output ability. One which thanks to this stealth ability will now also be mostly risk-free to the attacker.
You want stealth? Great. Keep the master scout prereq. Otherwise this game WILL turn into STEALTH wars. You are a stealther or you are a victim. DAOC had the same problem years ago and still has it with its archer and assassin classes.
Want to be able to put traps or mine-like objects, you know playing the sneaky specops sabotage guy? Great! Just not high damage because you can be paired with other very high damage long ranged proffession and seriously imbalance the game. Disruption is more the Ranger role and super-debuff traps would fit the ranger role better.
Mines and high damage explosives belong to commando. Even when paired with high damage ranged proffessions we do not provide the massive advantages ranger would (as per other abilities granted BY ranger).
IMHO what this boils down to is:
People are going to use the new ranger traps, and create an ambush.
These rangers will be concealed from view, as will their traps to create the most effective ambush possible.
The ambush site is static, and cannot be laid in a city (I'd assume the same goes for player cities).
If the other faction does not bother to come into the fire zone that the ranger has carefully laid out, then his wonderful ambush kill zone is pretty useless.
Of course this can be facilitated by having friendly forces retreat into the ranger ambush kill zone.
But that's still no guarantee that the opposing forces are going to enter the kill zone.
All the things I've listed above are going to add a certain amount of tactics to PvP encounters.
Players will now be required to actually (gasp!) think about what they are doing, keep their forces spread out, and not bunched up (to minimize the effects of anti personel devices on their group) and not run blindly into kill zones.
Truth be told, you know who I will want by my side concealed on the ground next to me when I've carefully constructed a kill zone for opposite faction enemy players to run in to? A commando, or three or five, or 7.
When I spring my ambush, I want flamethrowers, and grenades to be working in concert with my anti personel devices, and conceal shot from my rifle.
Instead of being upset about who gets what, etc. let's focus on what can be done here with the situation.
Don't be lazy. Think tactically. That's what this game has needed for a long time now. This is the answer to the over powered jedi alpha class, intelligent thinkers who can lay clever ambush kill zones.
Fight smarter, not harder.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
You see you have fallen into the SWG Commando is a special forces trooper fallacy. The SWG Commando is a heavy weapons expert, that is why he wouldnt be a republic commando. A ranger would be.
A Commando needs to know about explosives because he has heavy weapons skills and grenades, not so he can sneak into an enemy base and mine it or rig it to explode. What you should be saying is, Commandos should get the work doen so that they truly are what they should be - Heavy Weapons troops.
Plus, at least commandos have working skills.
Given that Ranger, until these changes go live,wasa non-combat class outdoorsman, the closest elite combat class to spec forces in the game was in fact commando. It was naturally assumed by many commandos demolitions would be our jobs... after all, we are part of the base slicing teams.... which is helping blow up enemy bases. However i'm sure you probably want that role too now.
Had i fallen into that fallacy? No, not quite, did you actually read what i had written? Didn't i say commandos are not the republic commandos? And trust me, the commandos do not need ANYONE to point this out.
As for working skills? Really? I know a lot of commandos who would disagree... we have no specials, we haveunderpowered weapons, we have broken AoE, our grenades suck and we cannot stand without another combat class... hardly working.
What's in a name eh??
Commando = special forces. Infiltration, camoflage, stealth kills with a knife. Use of explosives to destroy infrastructure (roads, rails, communications in general).
But no, this is Star Wars not World War II or real life. Its a fantasy game! Lets confuse and upset as many people as possible with the names of the professions!
Ranger have a revamp after a long wait. The change is what half the players of this profession wanted. Hooray!!
Commando are still waiting for their revamp. Hang in there guys but be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. With bells on!
Yuzzem wrote:
Three Cheers!!
What's in a name eh??
Commando = special forces. Infiltration, camoflage, stealth kills with a knife. Use of explosives to destroy infrastructure (roads, rails, communications in general).
But no, this is Star Wars not World War II or real life. Its a fantasy game! Lets confuse and upset as many people as possible with the names of the professions!
Ranger have a revamp after a long wait. The change is what half the players of this profession wanted. Hooray!!
Commando are still waiting for their revamp. Hang in there guys but be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. With bells on!
The way i see rangers and commandos, is actually a mutual support and combat multiplier effect.
Rangers are like the SAS or Special Forces, who (while proficient in heavy weaponry) for the most part use stealth and surgical strikes against the enemy. Stationary explosives, traps, and stealth.
The commandos (who badly need their stuff fixed) should be essentially the heavy infantry. They use the chaos created by the rangers to inflict massive amounts of damage in wide area. I have always pictured the commando cutting a swath of destruction across the battlefield, whereas the ranger would be the infiltrator.
two separate roles, each supporting the other.