Ranger Archive

Thread: Ranger Revamp: The Focus (Tier Names)

Waste93
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:01 pm
#40




Fred_Skinner wrote:
ok, I could go point-by-point but here is the bottom line: Make us as usefull as doctors, the pattern of our skills are mirror images. Do not do that and I leave. Docs have PvP value, so should we. End of story. Probably not of the debate, but should be. Now, to DO that we are going to have to have some combat value inserted, and the most Ranger-ish would be recon and/or stealth in PvP. Watering us down to glorified crafters and less then adiquate hunters is not going to do this profession justice.




Fred,


Not disagreeing. I don't think the primary role of Rangers should be Recon however. That may be an aspect, but not the main role.





Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:05 pm
#41
"They participate in the war but their MOS is not a combat MOS. Being in the military does not make one a combat class"






Erm Medics are noncoms?


My point was that when you are saying recon is military, that every other profession in the game could be classed as military. Being a ranger isnt going to force you into the gcw, just give you options to participate if you want to (afterall its the end game). Recon is simply an area of ranger that developes into most of the scout and ranger areas we already have, so it naturaly becomes the primary role. Not because every ranger will only have recon skills but because alot of our skills can let us play into the recon role more effectivelly.


Ok i hate nitpicking posts but:


"A Ranger is a hunter"


No hunting is 1 tier based of another SINGLE tier. If rangers were hunters then we would only have one tier pre-req (hunting). Problem is most people think we are hunters because its one of our only functional tiers.


"The GCW is just a small part. Both in game and in the movies, those involved in the GCW was a very small percentage of the overall population"


the population fighting for imps or rebs in the films could of been low, but it involved EVERYONE.And this is kinda the opposite of what the community has be demmanding for so long (hense the crackdown and the GCW revamp). The GCW in the films wasnt a small part, its was EVERY part. You didnt have to pick a side but you where in it. Yes you should be given this choice, im not saying you shouldnt but it should be a large part of the game and most likely will.


"Stealth isn't a Recon skill. If anything Tracking would be. Recon is about gathering information on the target. Tracking does that. It provides numbers, distance, and direction"


What type of recon unit cannot sneak around, go unnoticed etc. to me this is part and parcel of what a recon unit it. the ability to gather intel without being seen/caugh. And most definatly in a military sense. What governments do you know that would allow everyday soldier in to look at their strike capabilities? NONE. Recon specialists are trained to not be caught, to reduced the chances of being caught. Stealth is very much a large part of recon.




I supose the main point here is that rangers will be rangers. Recon skills will not force them into the gcw, nor will they force them into pvp/pve combat. They will develope our skills into pvp usable, pvp functional and let us experience alot more of what the game has to offer.





THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
Fred_Skinner
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:10 pm
#42




Waste93 wrote:

Camo is an extension of their Stealth abilities as shown by MaskScent.




When this works in PvP, THEN we have equity. The rest of your arguements will not change us... and that is the problem. The "Super Scout" thinkhas ALWAYS been the problem and most who played a Ranger has expected more from this profession (they usually leave after they figure it out). We compare directly with Doctor. Do you think of them as Super Medic?


If the tie to scouts is a problem, perhaps they should also be revisited till the final progressions do make sense. Why should we leave the current definition of scout and/or ranger alone anyway? It sure is weak as is. I want the 140 point use justified. I want folks to need a ranger as much as a doctor. Is that really so hard?




Frederick Skinner
Antarian Ranger, Ranger(0030), Master Rifleman, CH(4214)
Ranger is not a profession. It's a lifestyle.


Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:13 pm
#43
Waste, the role will be ranger, clear and simple. It always will be. The roles you see are developement roles, simply ideas that people should focus around to develope ideas in all aspects of the new ranger.


Dont think that rangers can only be recon specialist, we wont be, but it is something we should be hinting at all throughout our profession.



THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:24 pm
#44
Again waste hunting is just one tier.


Would you expect BH to only be albe to weild carbines? Doctors only be able to diagnose people?


The answer is no. Scout is not just about hunting creatures, creature only combat is harsh for a basic profession,ten times more foran elite profession and even more harsh for an elite profession requiring the complete mastery of another profession in pre-reqs.


The skills you learn in scout:

Exploration

Hunting (the only area imo that justifies being creature only)

Trapping

Camping

Survival

Basic Stealth


1 area of a proffesion that needs to be creature only dictates the functions of the whole profession, this is wrong. Dont take all of these and make an elite profession based on only one of them. Make a profession taking them all into account, but most importantly moving off in their own direction. Creature only combat is the 1st thing that should go, its rediculous that a profession (let along an elite proffesion) can only hunt creatures.




THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
Waste93
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:26 pm
#45




Owen-Lars wrote:

Waste, the role will be ranger, clear and simple. It always will be. The roles you see are developement roles, simply ideas that people should focus around to develope ideas in all aspects of the new ranger.


Dont think that rangers can only be recon specialist, we wont be, but it is something we should be hinting at all throughout our profession.




That's fine. However you had Recon listed as the primary role. And to me a primary role is the main focus of the profession with the other skills devolving from there. Which is why I suggested 'Survivalist' as a better term as the main role with Recon as a branch from it. Our disagreement is mostly semantic. It's about the meaning of words.


I can understand why some may find 'Survivalist' offensive. So we can find another word. But Recon doesn't seem appropriate as the primary role defining term.





Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Waste93
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:34 pm
#46




Owen-Lars wrote:

Again waste hunting is just one tier.




We are agreeing here. I don't think Ranger should be only creature interactions. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't or couldn'tbe the primary function.


In a game like this it makes sense to have a profession that is primarily about creature interactions (hunting, tracking, harvesting, etc). Based on the large amount of creatures and how common this type of combat is, it makes perfect sense.


But like you said. That doesn't mean that is their only scenario their abilities work in. PvP traps and stealth make perfect sense. But those are secondary abilities devolved from their primary focus.





Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Vorpaks
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:41 pm
#47
Waste93 wrote:

Vorpaks wrote:
A Ranger is a hunter.
That is just one of our many possible applications. It has become our main focus by default over time because tracking/harvesting is our one really useful skill. Now that our revamp is approaching we have a chance to open it up and encompass other aspects of the game. Woot! Finally!

It's the main focus not only because of those two skills. But all the skills really point to that role as the MAIN one. Using camps allows you to heal in the wild without returning to town. That is a hunter type skill.

That should remain the main role.



Actually when I first started Ranger I thought I would be the "survivalist" the point man for the group, making sure everyone was safe as we traversed to our chosen spots (hunting, battlefields, etc.) pulling and rearranging aggros as needed and dodging, outrunning shots like a true athlete. Sadly "survivalist" is dead dead dead. Crushed under the weight of shuttleports, speeders, and POIs. /playviolin Never to return until SWG2 when they introduce new adventure planets where shuttles can not land and no speeder bikes can traverse.

I never thought I would be the hunter. As I realized I really brought no bonus to a group and gathering resources was a contribution I could make to the guild (though their constant chant was "Go TKA! Go TKA!" /playviolinlouder) I became the solitary hunter. And I enjoy it. SWG is an amazing game and even though I am not doing what I originally thought I would be doing, I still have a lot of fun. However, I am Ranger 0030. Because that is all you need to be a hunter. None of the other skills enhance me as a hunter, and unless they become super incredible they will not make me a better hunter than my second master combat profession can make me.

People go into Ranger now thinking it will be a hunting profession because what they read on the board and see of Rangers in game. Most of those probably go like me - Ranger 0030. Those who go off the original description are usually disappointed and leave or hang around like us wackos and hope things will get better. Those who hange around AND keep the Master tag /respect. You are truly insane and we thank you for it.

Killing animals is such a small part of this game. Using the skills that we currently use on animal hunting in all aspects of combat is so much better. The focus should be the skills - not what we are able to use them on. That is a personal choice. Making all the other skills we don't use in hunting (0030 remember) useful as well and you have an amazing amount of opportunities which can be refined and defined in our revamp. I am looking forward to this becoming a really attractive and interesting profession for any player to consider.

Message Edited by Vorpaks on 12-23-2004 04:42 PM



Paks
Master Ranger/Master Creature Handler
-I support ATK play

Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:48 pm
#48
Well see it in this light. We would have skills all over our proffession that fall into the recon catagory. We are spending alot of time developing ideas that have multiple uses as it promotes longer fun factor and more oportunities. Whilst you would not have to be a recon unit, you could be a hunter, you could a survivalist, if you used them all together the most dominant function you would have would be reconaissance.


Not becuase the profession is dedicated to it, but the proffesion allows you to fully realise this role if you want to.The only primary role realy is ranger but the next in line is recon unit and as we are developing ideas, recon takes precidence over the many meanings of ranger. Dont think about recon as the direction of our entire skill set, we are puttig much more effort in for it to be that, think of it as a rugby team. (English damn it hehe)


You have a speedy winger, used to run fast, carry the ball long distances, chase the ball down and hang back for kicks over the top. This part of the team is equaly functional in itself than any other part of the team.

You have a prop, use to power the ball forward in contested areas, recover the ball from hostile hands and defend your lines from attack. This part of the team is again equaly functional as any other part.

You then have a hooker (tisk tisk dont laugh), used to bind the pack in a scrum, dominate the front lines and take many hits running and tackling.


These 3 parts all play a large part in their own right, they all play rugby, but combine them and you have a rugby TEAM. A collective unit highlighted under one heading that provides another function all together. A winger is still a winger but use all the part together and you have a team.


In the same way we are shooting for this set up. 3 sub roles each extremely important in their own right, the are all ranger, but combine them together and you have RANGER. A collective set of roles highlighted under one heading that provides another function all together. A suvival skill is a survival skill but combine it with the others and you have a new oportunity that opens up to you, a recon role.



THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
Waste93
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:52 pm
#49


Owen-Lars wrote:

Well see it in this light. We would have skills all over our proffession that fall into the recon catagory.


Actually you only have one. That is Tracking.





Colonel Waste - The Wookiee Crusader
Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:54 pm
#50
camo, survival, tracking, creature knowledge (lays the paving stones for further intel gathering on targets)


All are recon specific.



THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
Vorpaks
Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:58 pm
#51

I think there is a weird definiton of recon going on here. Trapping is definitely not recon - it reveals your presence, possibly your position, and definitely your hostile intent. Trapping is an offensive skill. Recon is more of a stealth skill and, as much as I hate to say it, a survivalist skill. Survive, undetected, in hostile territory.


I am a moron. Sorry Owen. (grin) Thats what I get when I try to play, post, and pay the pizza guy at the same time.

Message Edited by Vorpaks on 12-23-2004 05:16 PM



Paks
Master Ranger/Master Creature Handler
-I support ATK play

Owen-Lars
Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:00 pm
#52

ya it doesnt involve alot of survival. As do alot of things.


However it wouldnt be too much to think you would use traps to support that role.


After all surveying the area is often the pre-cursor to an attack. It wouldnt be too hard to think a recon unit would set traps to aid in escape, even if detected and perhaps to aid in the attack.

Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 12-23-2004 10:04 PM



THORTAC BALCOR
The Lost Ranger
RANGER
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