Ranger Archive
Thread: Conceal V2.0
"Since these areas are not considered "cities" and dont give you the " you have entere Tusken Fort" the mod would be just as in the wilderness."
What I was getting at is that these places are municipal zones just like cities and should be, I think, treated as such.
"So maybe the /sneakattack or /hiddenattack(whatever name we choose) could be used only with /conceal2."
Hmmm... The way I have /hide (aka /conceal2) written right now is in such a way to stop players from using it as a "jump from the shadows and attack" sort of way. That does not sound like an outdoorsmanly system (more like a smuggler or BH concept).
"But NRaas, I don't see why this is a problem with the NPC and animals seeing us."
Eh? I think I corrected myself later on regarding this issue.
I see no issue with the timer version of /firststrike if a player is smart enough to perform the command before the opponent begins combat.
Zkull wrote:
New System!!!
Come on devs!!! Give us something to help us participate in this GCW you keep pushing!!
...snip...the colors, aaaaaahh...
If the devs want a counter to this, then give a /reveal command to another profession that doesn't get much say-so in this ongoing GCW conflict.
Each side in the GCW should be able to have rangers. We get this "/reveal" command, and it's a chance thing (a roll) pitting one rangers skill against another. I like this 
Whatever they do, they better do something useful and fast or this profession is gonna be a "could have been a contender" one that folks only master for their holos. I've been a staunch supporter for the profession since the beginning and have no immediate plans for dropping it - even for holos, but I have to admit, it is getting harder and harder not to think about learning something a bit more useful to the game.
...snip...
So yeah - my vote goes for something new!!
yep, and to me, this conceal would be the ticket. We sacrifice offensive power for.... pretty much nadda. Stealth would restore us back into the game. I'm sorry, but there is no reason for having a ranger in a PC raid... we are more a hinderance due to the skill points spent on things that won't help in the raid. I do not believe brief invisibility can become horrably unbalancing.
If this is carefully thought out I feel we should not just write it off. It can be done technically and be hacker-proof. Maybe not allow it to work on those that see you already, only invisable till you attack, perhaps roll a chance to detect each second you are moving. Maybe motion detectors that can be taken out but see at a greater range then you can shoot (this is in Starcraft).I'm sure there are things that can be done. I don't want them to be so parinoid of it, however, to make it completely usless. Letting NPC's see through this and no use in the GCW is the same thing.
This "invisibility" featureadds a dimention to the game I feel would yield great excitement and an opportunity to put SW:G a cut above others. Think about it, how exciting PvP would become with this. I'd not want this to be squandered on exploit fear. Other games have done this, and it's almost expected now. Imho, it's one of the things missing in SW:G, making it a bit bland.
Ref DAOC's implementation of stealth/invisibility:
I'm by no means an expert on this as I have only played a scout (which has stealth), and maybe "balanced" is an overstatement, but what I was trying to say was that they (DAOC)have implemented a counter-measure to the stealth of scouts, etc. by providing the assassin with a larger detection radius than any other class. In DAOC, stealth is complete invisibility, with the information about the stealthed character not even being sentto client machines unless the server determines that you can see the stealthed character. This is to prevent packetsniffer programs from being able to counteract stealth.
So in our example, if Rangers were given a radar detection reduction skill (say that ten times), SWG would have to balance it out by adding a "detection" skill to another profession (smuggler?) who has increased detection abilities. Not necessarily a longer range, but a better chance of breaking the Ranger's conceal.
As far as the "enemy" seeing you on screen, preferably, the concealed Ranger would not pop on to the screen until their detection range is reached, but that probably goes against the devs invisibility rules. Instead, we would have to rely on luckand on how much the targetis paying attention to their surroundings. Hopefully your enemy is preoccupied with something else.
At any rate, if a Ranger (or Ranger concealed group, heh heh) does not appear on the radar until, lets say about 30m or whatever, your chances of a sneak attack, etc. are a lot better than if a bunch of red dots appeared on the radar at the 64m range. Being able to sneak in to a closer range would give our melee professions an added bonus.
At least the radar conceal model does not promote complete invisibility that the devs seem to be so against.
"In DAOC, stealth is complete invisibility"
How do those with complete invisibility stack up with regards to combat prowess?
Under a class system, it is very easy to limit those with extreme skills to ensure "balance" across the board. While in the profession system, it is a might more difficult.
I see no issue with the timer version of /firststrike if a player is smart enough to perform the command before the opponent begins combat.
I really don't see how a 30 second timer is going to keep the opposing player from attacking you, or mob for that matter. A timer doesn't seem to solve the problem brought up about your target attacking first.
You didn't comment on my discussing the lack of PvP for this /sneakattack thing. Or about how I didn't think it was meant for NPC. Don't get me wrong, it would be great if it was, but the devs dont want us hiding against NPC or PvP, so I just went with that. If we get the defensive mod for /conceal working across the board, animal/npc, and PvP, that gives us a tool for PvP. Remember, your poll long ago said most rangers want to be PvE. Just give us at least one really good tool for PvP.
"I really don't see how a 30 second timer is going to keep the opposing player from attacking you, or mob for that matter. A timer doesn't seem to solve the problem brought up about your target attacking first."
Ok...
Thetimer defines a grace period for the player to initiate an attack. Otherwise everyone would simply have the ability always enabled and every first attack would have a bonus.
If a player knows that combat will be initiated within the timer, then they can initiate it. Once the combat begins, either started by the player or his opponent, the first attack performed will have the bonus.
The timer would not stop an opponent from attacking you first, and it doesn't need to anyways.
All a Ranger must do is ensure that the /firststrike command is initiated before entering combat. So it is possible for an opponent to start combat before a Ranger is prepared, denying him the advantage of the First Strike.
That way, to gain the advantage the Ranger must know that combat is imminent, or risk getting one upped by his foe.
Clear as mud?
NRaas wrote:
"In DAOC, stealth is complete invisibility"
How do those with complete invisibility stack up with regards to combat prowess?
Under a class system, it is very easy to limit those with extreme skills to ensure "balance" across the board. While in the profession system, it is a might more difficult.
The answer to that is what they have in rifleman and what they chanced in CH: spread out the skill in such a way it really is only powerful high in the ranger tree, or only as a Master. Force the skill points out of people and you have your "class".
"or only as a Master."
Even with the invisibility skill at Master, it might still be too difficult to balance it with some professions...
Like say a Master Teras Kasi sneaking up behind a player and wreaking havoc in the first couple hits.
I love the entusiasm, but I think we all need to look at the track record of the changes we've had for Rangers up to now. We have not been very successful in getting sweeping changes to the Ranger class. The ideas proposed in this thread, while good, are very complex and deviate substantially from what we've already got for class features. This would require a lot of design and coding time and I don't think we're going to get it no matter how cool our ideas are. We need to keep it simple if we want results.
I think our best strategy will be to maintain that /conceal should work against NPCs. It's fair, it's balanced, and it's one of the few perks we enjoy as rangers. We're the only class that can hide from 'people' and we should fight hard to keep that. It's an important skill to Rangers. It's one of our profession-defining features and there is no reason I've seen why we shouldn't have it. Let the scouts keep /maskscent.
I want /conceal and I want it to stay the way it is right now.
AtomicElephant(great name btw) The ideas proposed in this thread, while good, are very complex and deviate substantially from what we've already got for class features. This would require a lot of design and coding time and I don't think we're going to get it no matter how cool our ideas are. We need to keep it simple if we want results.
I agree with you especially since I had that big thread about posting our logic to keep /conceal vs NPC. But since the devs are already changing things on us, with out even talking to us about it, lets go ahead and make more work for them. I mean they started the process of wanting to change things already in place and working pretty well. So if they want to do that, fine we will make do, and redo things so it works differently.
NRaas, it is clrear as mud, now. Sorry. Just so I know I'm on the right track, you are forgoing the idea that /sneakattack can't be done once already in combat, and saying you have to attack in the first 30 seconds. So no matter what, as long as you attack in some way in those 30 seconds you get the damage bonus to the first hit?
If this is the thinking of the /firststrike command, then I'm down with that. Does it still have to be used with /conceal on? I ask since that was the oringal idea behind the /sneakattack, and it helps to justify a really high damage modifier because we have to be concealed and thus using camo kit(resources)