Ranger Archive
Thread: Conceal V2.0
"So /sneakattack1 somewhere in the wayfaring branch and /sneakattack2 in Master ranger would seem better."
Spiffy.
I presume /sneakattack1 would produce a 2x effect, and /sneakattack2 would produce the 4x effect. 
"If the enemy player sees you on screen, they can simply initiate combat and your /sneakattack is lost"
Actually a similiar problem would occur with aggressive creatures and humanoids as well.
As they would still be able to see the player, they could actually initiate combat before the player does.
Hmmm...
My suggestion is such:
- Using the /firstStrike command will initiate a 30 second timer.
- If no attack is performed within that time period, the command is wasted and nothing happens.
- The first attack performed within the 30 secondsreceives the bonus.
- Concealment is lost when the attack occurs, whether it hit or missed.
NRaas wrote:
"If the enemy player sees you on screen, they can simply initiate combat and your /sneakattack is lost"
Actually a similiar problem would occur with aggressive creatures and humanoids as well.
As they would still be able to see the player, they could actually initiate combat before the player does.
Hmmm...
My suggestion is such:
- Using the /firstStrike command will initiate a 30 second timer.
- If no attack is performed within that time period, the command is wasted and nothing happens.
- The first attack performed within the 30 secondsreceives the bonus.
- Concealment is lost when the attack occurs, whether it hit or missed.
Hmm...that seems like it might work. But "/firststrike" doesn't sound like it correlates well with /conceal. perhaps "/hiddenfirststrike" or "/hiddenfirstattack" 
As for as the mechanics of it, you might find probems in pvpdue to server to client lag and client lag. I often see people disappear from one place and reappear somewhere else in laggy areas and I have a top-notch computer and dsl. Also melee rangers would have a hard time getting inrange due to kiting, lag, and perhaps a limited range on the attack before the timer runs out. Of course you could argue that that is the downside of melee.At onepoint I figured maybe asimple timer on the attack would work, you could use the attack at anytime, and once you use it you lose camo. But then I realized that most would use it as a finishing blow to reap the benefits of the "negative to-hit mod" as much as possible. Hmm....this is a hard one. How do other mmorpgs handle this? swg is my first.
Perhaps two different methods need to be used for creatures/npcs and pcs. Afterall, our tracking ability distinguishes them. The last box is dedicated soley to tracking players. If the devs wanted to be realistic they would have players listed under "people". So given how they handled tracking perhaps we could handle /conceal and /sneakattack on creatures/npcs and pcs two different ways. Perhaps the untargetable idea, red con to white con on radar, or /conceal minimizing the opponents range would work. Tough one, eh?
"Perhaps two different methods need to be used for creatures/npcs and pcs."
I don't like propogating the illogical. It is good to start with a logical premise, and change it later when the finite limitation of technology forces us down that path.
"But then I realized that most would use it as a finishing blow to reap the benefits of the "negative to-hit mod" as much as possible."
That is a good point... How should this be compensated for? A shorter timermay cause problems with the laggy, but a longer timer ruins the intent.
For the moment, I will reduce the timer to 5 seconds until you guys can figure out another way to handle the situation.
"But then I realized that most would use it as a finishing blow to reap the benefits of the "negative to-hit mod" as much as possible."
Ok, I have thought about this some more... And found the flaw in your logic.
How does a player wait until the end of combat to perform the action?
- /firststrike can not be initiated if the player is already in combat.
- And any attack on the opponent, even the autoattack would be considered the first strike against the opponent and receive the bonus.
So unless the player proceeded to damage the opponentby never attacking, I don't how they could wait until the end of battle to use the ability.
Is my logic pooched somewhere? Or am I right?
Ok here's another idea to throw around, this idea lends itself to the "/conceal2" idea. The /conceal2 idea was where it did make you invisible but you couldn't move and were prone. So maybe the /sneakattack or /hiddenattack(whatever name we choose) could be used only with /conceal2. Basically /conceal1 is thebasic layer of camo, the layer gives you the "negative to-hit mod". /conceal2 gives you a much more advanced technological camo but because it's so advanced or ancient it's easily broken or disrupted and you simply HAVE to stand still in order for it to work(scratches out prone since rifleman have the same type ability I think). The only special or basic attack availabe is /sneakattack. So let's say you see an enemy player, quickly you /conceal2, and become invisible, you can't move so if you're ranged then you have an advantage here, if you're melee you have to wait until the player runs within range. A timer is on the ability, so you have to make a decision, do you wait until he is within range and then /sneakattack or do you go ahead and start running or following thereby becoming visible whilesimultaneously hitting the /conceal1 button before you or they initiate combat?
- Both /conceals do not stack, if you /sneakattack while /conceal2, hit or miss, you lose camo, because you cannot /conceal1 while in combat.
- /conceal1 is attainable at wayfaring 1 or novice ranger and gives the proposed "neg. to-hit mod"and increases effectiveness as you climb ranger, /conceal1 can be applied to other players
- /conceal2 is a ranger only ability, rangers get it at wayfaring 3 as well as /sneakattack1(greater damage thanbasic attack but less than /sneakattack2)which is also exclusive to ranger
- /sneakattack2(greater damage than/sneakattack1)is attainable at Master ranger
- /conceal2 has a significant timer such as one or two minutes to discourage griefing and considering the device is fragile, also both /sneakattack1 and /sneakattack2 can only be used while having /conceal2 applied
- /conceal2 requires a cloaking device in the belt slot, you can't moveand you have to be standing otherwise camo is broken, crafters can make thisitem with a looted ancient cloaking device and a couple othercomponents
- Both /sneakattacks use HAM, so obviously /sneakattack2 uses more HAM than /sneakattack1
- Cloaking device certification at wayfaring 3: Because rangers are masters of stealth, they have learned to use this ancient cloaking device but because it's ancient, it's fragile(cloaking devices were used in SWKOTOR which dates 4000 years before the setting of SWG, also keep in mind that LucasArts approved the existence of cloaking devices)
Ok, so what do you think? Anyone see anything that would cause a problem?
Yes that makes sense NRaas.The obvious thing is that your idea is much simpler than the one I just posted and would require less development time. So I'm gonna have to think about these ideas and I'll post my afterthoughts. Anyway, good job NRaas.
Zkull wrote:
To keep in line with the conceal motif, perhaps it's functioncould be changed to reduce our detection range on the radar. In other words, players would not be able to see us on their radar until we were close. The range of detection could decrease as you go up the tree, with a huge bonus to Master Ranger.
Maybe Master Ranger could almost be on top of a player before they get detected, or even better, Masters get the ability to "conceal" their group. This would allow "surprise attacks" (or "sneak attacks" ala SquidWalker) when doing raids, etc. You can bet Rangers wouldfinally bea useful additionin faction raids. (They will probably say this is something left for squad leaders.)
Reduce radardetection range huh?Thats cool. At master they can only see us on the radar at the 64m firing range. This is a cool addition, but it still deserves a defensive mod to for when we are within range. I like this... that way we dont screw up the current radar dependent targeting system, yet we can sneak around other players if we want by staying out of range. This makes us very useful for raiding Player cities I think. We would actaully be wanted for recon, and explored mission terminals do have recon missions, so this idea is not of track I think.
What about places like fort tusken or the nightsister stronghold. In that type of a place where there are tons of mobs around you should get negatives too.
Since these areas are not considered "cities" and dont give you the " you have entere Tusken Fort" the mod would be just as in the wilderness.
As for the topics of the /sneakattack and initiating combat. This skill would be for mobs only and not intended for PvP play. Otherwise, as was stated, you get into the fact the player can see you and start combat.
But NRaas, I don't see why this is a problem with the NPC and animals seeing us. You said that they could also start combat before we get to use it. Well since to use the /sneakattack you have to be /concealed, then hmm I don't know, put it back the way it was? Make /conceal actually conceal you from creatures and NPC. Buuuuut since we aren't doing that, then your /maskscent for the agro animals. As to avoid the agro NPC from starting combat first, I don't know there. We are supposed to be outdoorsman now, but if an NPC is in the outdoors it's on our terf. But it seems the devs don't want us sneaking up on or sneaking past NPC, then the answer is done for us. Which means you only need to worry about creatures, and only agro ones. So use your mask scent, because in my suggestion I said it needs to be usable when you have /conceal on, for the new system.
Did all the rambling make sence?
I like the idea of a sneak attack. A concealed ranger/marksman should be able to fire a shot from a hidden location, and a concealed ranger/brawler should be able to sneak up behind something.
This may have already been said, but how about if conceal worked like areatrack, and at higher levels worked against higher things? For example, one box in whatever line it is and conceal would work against creatures. Two boxes and conceal would work against creatures and NPC's. Three boxes and it would work against creatures, NPC's, and Players. I agree that it's problematic to determine how conceal should work against players, but giving a detection ability, perhaps to squad leaders and naturally to other rangers would be a good balancing option.
I think I had other ideas while reading this thread, but I forgot them.