Ranger Archive

Hopefully our traps will be balanced. A balance between how powerful they are and often we get a chance to use them.

Seriously if we can only set off one or two in a PvE encounter say against a big animal, or a though faction trooper. They have to be rather powerful to be worth it right. Moreover, if they are that powerful then what will they do to a player even if they thair damage are migrated by armour, PSG, synstake, and PvP damage deduction?

If they really were extremely powerful, one way to limit thair use would be the cost of using them. If on the other had they are about as powerful as special attacks with weapons are then they have to be dirt cheep, and be available for use in large numbers in all prep repaired encounters.

So until we know how powerful they are, and how often we have a chance to use them, we cant really say weather we should be making them our self. But as there will be a power cap for how useful they can be in PvP I am leaning towards having us make them our self, at least until we have had a chance for some testing.

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

Wow Phenix, you are grasping at straws here. A 50 point mind hit is NOT damage dealing when you could hit headshot for >2k.

I say they were underpowered. You said there were no professions that crafted their own weapons that did damage, I was simply alerting you to the fact that the desire to increase the damage capabilities of traps has long been a part of our community, and we did not consider that out of place then.

Oh, you forgot the other profession that does this: Jedi. When was the last time you saw a Jedi buying a lightsaber from a weaponsmith?

No one thinks the whould entirely be made by another profession. I said myself, that due to bio sigs, we need to be involved in, at least, the finaly build. What is the difference between carrying around crates ofcomponents and carrying around the resources to make each component. Anyone who wants to craft traps in the field (and the bio sig is a valid reason for doing so) is going to want pre crated components to save time in crafting the trap.

The difference is simple, Calc. Traps are pre-made. No more combining required. So you have a crate of 25 traps, you get 25 traps. If we start requiring sub componants to do final combines then you start requring 2 or 3 crates of 25 items- a total of 75 items- to make 25 traps. Also, most final combines require more resources. If we make them ourselves, all we need is a few stacks of resources. Additionally, you don't have to get resources out of crates. If I want to craft 25 traps in a row with sub-componants, I have to have all 75 pieces (assuming 3 pieces-- trigger, explosive, shell) out ahead of time. With just using resources I need only the resources out. Inventory management is important.

Remember why they removed medical crafting from doctor? Because it was boring and time consuming, not akin to a fast-paced healer that they wanted. Inventory management was difficult and it was just annoying to have to craft in the field using all the subcomponants. KISS is the principle here. Keep our crafting simple. As I've said, I really don't think going out and finding that I can't craft a trap because all the dang crates look alike and I forgot to grab another set of fuses will be fun. Maybe you do, but I think allowing us to be self-sufficient to a certain degree, with other professions making us better, is a more apt solution.

It's a bit of a stretch to say we are required to craft as a prereq. I just mastered Ranger andI crafted exactly ZERO traps. Now, if the devs require Trap Crafting XP, then your argument holds water, but until then, I think jealously guarding trap component crafting is a bit closed minded.

Well, I disagree. Crafting is part of what we do. We make our own traps. There are no artisan or weaponsmith certifications for traps. The only profession which makes traps are scout and Ranger. You can sell your traps to others, but the fact is that SOMEBODY had to make your traps, and that somebody was not an artisan or a weaponsmith. They were a scout or Ranger. What do you say about camo kits? Somebody has to make them, too, Calc. Should Artisans get them? How far do we let this go? In the end, keeping our skills is something I'm interested in. As I've said, enhancers are a great idea. Trust me, I would use enhancers all the time on base raids. But being completely unable to use my skills because I didn't pick up a crate of sub componants that I use to craft my only weapon is silly.

What's so wrong with wanting to be able to use my skills without needing a crate of sub-componants. Again, if riflemen or any other profession had to craft their own weapon, and they got one use out of it, and yet still had to buy the parts from weaponsmith, sure, I'd agree that we should be like every other combat profession. But we're not. Whether or not you made traps Calc, you had the potential to, and you were granted schematics. No other combat class has schematics. That's what makes us unique, not that we require crafting XP.

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The concept of having other people make components of the traps is basically like the modular trapping idea that has been kicked around a few times since NRass camp up with modular camping. If the traps are going to be complex I don't see a problem with buying components from another profession, especially if that profession can make them better than we can. Before the CU my short lived BE character bought all her components from a Master Doc because they were sooooo much better than the ones she could make.

That being said, I hope these traps are not very complicated. Already the conditions that need to be right to place the traps seem pretty convoluted. If they are difficult to make, difficult to place, and you only have one shot with them to do any damage - will they really be used? They are going to have to balance the complexity against the damage output very carefully.

I also have a problem with them being compared to real weapons, even grenades which are consumable. All other weapons are buy and shoot or buy and throw. All other weapons can be used in combat. Ranger traps would be buy, assemble, place, detonate. And once you actually enter in to combat forget it. All Ranger skills will be pre-combat skills. None of them will do you a lick of good once that music starts up, unlike the weapons of other professions. We will be the only combat profession who can't actually do anything while in combat (well, I guess we are used to that! ). Perhaps nice combat mods will make up for it. But that is besides the point.

My point, if I can remember it, was that they are going to have to make some step in the trap process super simple (like the crafting part) or else they are going to have to make the traps themselves super powerful. Otherwise Rangers will end up back where they started, with really cool stuff that no one uses.

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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weaponmaster88 wrote:

well if we do craft them we'll be carrying around 20 different kinds of resources as well as all the compenentsor

we could have WS's do all the work for us we just drag the 2 or 3 components together and place the trap... saving us time, money resources, effort and frustration.

mayb i'm just missing something but it just seems so much easier to let the crafting professions craft....

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yeah, I doubt it's be close to 20 resources. more like 2 or 3. And resources stack up to 100k per inventory slot, likely enought for severl thousand traps. crates come in stacks of 25, which would make 25 traps. So the resources are still more efficient if we make em ourselves on the go, and you don't have to worry about not being able to make them in the field.

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ok so the storing and making of traps might now be as bad as i originally thought, i did take a look at the WS forums. we're all still thinking of traps in the old sense of the word, i think they are going to be more like mines now.... and heres what i standard mine takes to build:

Mine:
Anti-Vehicular Mine - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Polymer, carbonate Ore, Crism Siliclastic Ore
DRX Mine - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Polymer, carbonate Ore, Crism Siliclastic Ore
XG Mine - Metal, Steel, Chemical

Munition Component:
Chemical Warhead - Thoranium Steel, Polymer, Copper, Amorphous Gemstone
Heavy Warhead Mechanism - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Skevon Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer, Hydron-3 Inert Gas
Light Warhead Mechanism - Steel, Polymer, Reactive Gas
Medium Warhead Mechanism - Metal, Steel, Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer
Warhead Fusing Mechanism - Amorphous Gemstone, steel, Metal, Low-Grade Ore
Warhead Stablilizing Device - Low-Grade Ore, Carbonated Ore, Copper, Amorphous Gemstone, Inert Gas, Steel

how each mine takes a medium warhead mechanism a stabilizer and a fusing... and thats only for proximity mines witihout timer or anything else... and with that it takes... about 11 different resources for 1 type of mine. so considering we have a bunch of different types of mines and detonating devices so...its still gunna be a lot of resources to collect... more then we're used to for traps... and we can't get them on our own either without pickingup artisan to find them....thats the biggest concern for me.

And if we make them our self, we could have a droid with the proper crafting station, and storage space for the resources needed.

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weaponmaster88 wrote:
we're all still thinking of traps in the old sense of the word, i think they are going to be more like mines now.... and heres what i standard mine takes to build:

Mine:
Anti-Vehicular Mine - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Polymer, carbonate Ore, Crism Siliclastic Ore
DRX Mine - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Polymer, carbonate Ore, Crism Siliclastic Ore
XG Mine - Metal, Steel, Chemical

Munition Component:
Chemical Warhead - Thoranium Steel, Polymer, Copper, Amorphous Gemstone
Heavy Warhead Mechanism - Metal, Thoranium Steel, Skevon Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer, Hydron-3 Inert Gas
Light Warhead Mechanism - Steel, Polymer, Reactive Gas
Medium Warhead Mechanism - Metal, Steel, Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer
Warhead Fusing Mechanism - Amorphous Gemstone, steel, Metal, Low-Grade Ore
Warhead Stablilizing Device - Low-Grade Ore, Carbonated Ore, Copper, Amorphous Gemstone, Inert Gas, Steel

how each mine takes a medium warhead mechanism a stabilizer and a fusing... and thats only for proximity mines witihout timer or anything else... and with that it takes... about 11 different resources for 1 type of mine.

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The Chemical war head and the heavy warhead was not used in anything when I was a WS. And remember that the WS mines are completed. The one mine body we use do not have a fuse in it..

Mine:
Mine - Metal, Steel, Chemical

Munition Component:
Light Warhead Mechanism - Steel, Polymer, Reactive Gas
Medium Warhead Mechanism - Metal, Steel, Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer

That would properly be more like it
So Steel (works for metal), Reactive Gas, Radioactive, Polymer (works for chemical)

well said paks. again, you say what I want to say, but...fluffier.

Traps look really cool. The idea of making a trap just for one person sounds like a lot of fun. but like paks said, it's already going to be very complex. the right detonator (time, proximity, remote detonation, promity with bio sig)will make a lot of difference. It's going to be a time-consuming process, I bet, and trying to acquire part from other before you can do any of that seems to add more complexity for the same of a very little benefit. If I have to buy all my parts for my traps, I won't make that many. I'm better off using my ADK'd weapon and completely cutting off the WS. If it takes me 2 hours to find the parts, 20 minutes to craft them, and 5 minutes to place them, I'm better off just spending the 20 minutes finding a group, or just rushing in and using my scout traps against a creature. I see no upside here. If traps are too expensive or too complex, they won't be used. Everyone will just continue to use their ADKd guns.

However, if it's an optional componant, I'll use them judiciously and come back to buy more if the time/money is worth it.

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From the ranger rewrap document in the "In Development" section:
Anti-Personnel devices are either detonated remotely, via timer or proximity trigger. Device bodies and triggers are combined in the inventory (drag & drop) to create a complete trap.

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So it appears that at least final assembly will be very simple.

ok people seemed to be confused so i pulled this off the original revamp post:

"Device bodies and triggers are combined in the inventory (drag & drop) to create a complete trap."

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weaponmaster88 wrote:

ok people seemed to be confused so i pulled this off the original revamp post:

"Device bodies and triggers are combined in the inventory (drag & drop) to create a complete trap."

wether we make the traps or not we're going to have to make 100's of compenents in our inventory no matter what. so anyone who says i'd rather be able to make them myself then carry around crates of components... well if we do craft them we'll be carrying around 20 different kinds of resources as well as all the compenents... and a crafting tool.... and instead of just having to click and combined we'll have to run away out of the battle craft 2 or 3 components.... put the trap together.... run back into the battle and place the trap....

or

we could have WS's do all the work for us we just drag the 2 or 3 components together and place the trap... saving us time, money resources, effort and frustration.

mayb i'm just missing something but it just seems so much easier to let the crafting professions craft....

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Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-20-2005 12:59 PM

I would vote for all scouting level traps to remain something we can make completely on our own out of the same components we use now. These would hopefully work as they do now (but more efficiently).

The new traps and snares provided to "Ranger as Spy"-those I see as being more technologically complex. I like the idea of being able to make the basic unit on the fly without any enhancements needed from components crafted by other professions. In order to make really high quality stuff,Droid engineer and Weaponsmith components make good sense for fuses, timing mechanisms, explosive charges, etc. The Ranger makes the trap or snare using his own crafted components plus the WS or DE crafted subcomponentsand his own experimentation so the final quality rests with the ranger skill set. I am all in favor of keeping the elements of profession interdependency in the game, I think it keeps the wheels going around so to speak.

Atheren/Bria

AmeliaRose/Naritus