Ranger Archive
Thread: Ranger Skill Points: Post CU
Phenix1050
Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:58 am
#40
I agree with Dave (don't die of shock, Dave 
). This is a very delicate issue for a lot of people. Sure you could reduce skill points, but that actualy helps non-rangers more than Rangers. we free up a few skill points, but they get to dabble in the best skills from scout much more easily. and if they go master scout, they get to dabble in Ranger skills much cheaper. we end up with even more 0040 rangers and we lose some of our bargining power come Revamp time. Dropping pre-reqs sounds like an idea, but where do you drop them from? Rangers build upon every aspect of scout. if scout trapping is lost, can we still wield lower- level traps as a Ranger (just not be able to make them). Will we be able to trap Rancors without the mods from scout? How about camping? Will we be able to use those lower-level camps? Will our ability to use our own camps vanish since we have a lower camping modifier? all our mods grow from scout, it's impossible to simply "drop" them,without factoring in what other effects that drop will have. And again, any drop in skillpoints will help non-ranger dabblers more than it would help the true rangers.
). This is a very delicate issue for a lot of people. Sure you could reduce skill points, but that actualy helps non-rangers more than Rangers. we free up a few skill points, but they get to dabble in the best skills from scout much more easily. and if they go master scout, they get to dabble in Ranger skills much cheaper. we end up with even more 0040 rangers and we lose some of our bargining power come Revamp time. Dropping pre-reqs sounds like an idea, but where do you drop them from? Rangers build upon every aspect of scout. if scout trapping is lost, can we still wield lower- level traps as a Ranger (just not be able to make them). Will we be able to trap Rancors without the mods from scout? How about camping? Will we be able to use those lower-level camps? Will our ability to use our own camps vanish since we have a lower camping modifier? all our mods grow from scout, it's impossible to simply "drop" them,without factoring in what other effects that drop will have. And again, any drop in skillpoints will help non-ranger dabblers more than it would help the true rangers.
Kalaf
Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:07 am
#41
He** I think most of us would consider just getting the HAM increase for Ranger like the combat guys do and say the coverup ability? Or a real working camo? maybe something like +5 in each box for Ranged Accuracy and Melee Accuracy as well as damage? Heck even +2 in all 4 in every box. THis way regardless of the "TYPE" Ranger you are you get something. Maybe not as good as the "Elite" Combat professions. but something that helps make us at least viable.
Jolandir
Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:37 am
#42
That is nice of them. Owen_Lars, since we are not considered a combat profession and by your own written example we will have mastered two, not one, two non-combat professions, we will only get a 1000 bonus to our health not 3000 like other combatants can do in the CU system. So I see a major unbalance even in hunting creatures let alone fightingNPCs and players.
From Blairs April 1st Blog we read:
2. How do I achieve the "maxed character health" of 3000?
Under the new system, as your character combat level increases, so will your total health. Your character's combat level is determined by the number of combat related skill boxes that you have. Additionally doctor and combat medic skill boxes will count towards this level. So as you gain these combat related skill boxes you will be able to gain health up to the cap of 3000.
We are considered a none combat profession as either scout or ranger, so I see a major unbalance for us. At best we will gain 1000 in health when we take a "real" combat profession and master it, but others who are considered "real" combatants will get 3000. So in anyone's calculations that is a difference of 2000 in health alone.
3. What defensive options will pure non-combat players have at their disposal?
Personal Shield Generators will be available and can be used by any profession, both combat and non-combat related. They are meant to give you a reasonable amount of protection for a short period of time. You can get personal shield generators from your friendly local Armorsmiths.
And since we are not considered a combat profession we are not getting any defenses either. So we are down 2000 in health, and we only can use armor and PSGs to give us defenses.
We have maskscent (only works against creatures) and camo (which works sometimes against NPCs) and we have to go up two skill branches to achieve these and now presto-chango Rifleman get conceal that allows them to disappear off the radar, and pistoleer and smuggler get area affect abilities (which traps should have had) and we don't get either.
This is a very bad situation and as Han Solo so accurately always stated "I have a very bad feeling about this!".
Just my 2 cents worth.
Jolandir
Kalaf
Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:12 pm
#43
"will get 3000. So in anyone's calculations that is a difference of 2000 in health alone"
Only partly. THe stuff they posted said 3000 was the MAX any Health would be. Now as an example in TC I have a Marksman Rifles IV and Rage Support 3 and Carbine I and II(went in to test)right now. His Health is 1200 nowSO it looked like about 25 extra points per 2 combat box(not counting Novice)... Now these are low end boxes and we don't know what Master Marks/Brawler ect bowxes will add. We also don't know yet what the Novice Elitie and Master BOxes will add.(since they are not yet turned on)
But I have a feeling we are looking at something like a Striaght 25 per 2box for the normal bows and maybe a 250 bonus for Novice and master or just 500 for master . UP to the max of 3000. THis is a rough guess from TC so far. SO if I am even close a Master Ranger Master Rifle(for instance) would get300 for the Marksman and Rifle normal tree boxes(6 trees and50 each) plus I am thinking an extra250 for Novice Rifleman and 450or so for Master Rifle. THis would make him 2000. I use this because if you were a "Normal" 2 COmbat Elitie toon you would do the 2 lower trees and another master set and get another 1000 that way.. Poof 3000 max.....
Now granted it is a guess and I used real logic as opposed to programer and game coder logic.. But I think I might be close.
.. But I think I might be close.Kalaf
Message Edited by Kalaf on 04-04-2005 01:57 PM
Message Edited by Kalaf on 04-04-2005 01:59 PM
Bethya
Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:52 pm
#44
While I can see where my good friend DaveG and others are coming from, I have to say that I think the answer is to reduce the SP required for Ranger not to make the current SP 'worth it'.
The point is that if it doesn't change, Ranger will be the only elite profession that needs the SP requirements that it does. Every other elite profession will be less costly than Ranger. That's just unfair.
If they were building the game from scratch, it'd be ludicrous to suggest one profession should be out on its own in SP requirements. The elite profs would all be the same as they wereinitially when the game was first built.
Calculus_Entropy
Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:57 pm
#45
Bethya wrote:While I can see where my good friend DaveG and others are coming from, I have to say that I think the answer is to reduce the SP required for Ranger not to make the current SP 'worth it'.The point is that if it doesn't change, Ranger will be the only elite profession that needs the SP requirements that it does. Every other elite profession will be less costly than Ranger. That's just unfair.If they were building the game from scratch, it'd be ludicrous to suggest one profession should be out on its own in SP requirements. The elite profs would all be the same as they wereinitially when the game was first built.
Soooo....Why try for more, when you can settle for less?
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 04-04-2005 03:57 PM
Vorpaks
Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:20 pm
#46
SebFR wrote:
I'm not that good in english (i'm french), but i think you're misunderstanding. What is asked isn't not mastering the scout profession in order to be ranger. It's a SP cost reduction in the ranger tree, like they did for the image designer (-1 SP for each skill).
I wondered... If ranger isn't a combat profession, what is it ? A craft profession (like artisan) ? An entertainer profession (like... entertainer) ? A social profession (like politician) ? A useless profession ?
I think a ranger is at least as much a combattant as a doctor.Message Edited by SebFR on 04-04-2005 01:09 PM
The "other" profession?
I do not argue with your points - all of us were 100% shocked to discover we were not considered a combat profession. It really blindsided us.I would disagree with an overall skillpoint reduction, though that is only my personal opinion. IDs were decreased for two reasons that I can see:
1. So that it was posible to build a true "Master Entertainer," which had been requested for a long time.
2. To give Image Designers something to make up for the fact that one of their most lucrative skills (stat migration) is being taken away with nothing to replace it. That something is the ability to pick up other skills.
I know that we are feeling in the number two position right now (which sounds dirtier than I meant it... and possibly truer than I realize), but I have a real gut feeling that it would be a bad idea to follow the same path - and precedent. For one thing, it really reinforces the idea of us as not a combat profession on a subconcious level. The phrases "Rangers and IDs" "like IDs" etc. becoming commonplace make me nervous. I really love the ID profession, but ID and Ranger are two VERY different things, and I really don't want the developers to see us in a similar light.
And of course I want it all. I want Rangers to be so useful - so cool - that we don't need a skill point reduction. I don't want to take up more combat to make up for the fact Ranger sucks. I want Ranger to be worth it, all on its own. IF we become that cool and the developers still want to recduce our skill points afterwards - hey, I probably wont argue.
If the developers even came to this board with a focus thread like GreenMarine did for the smugglers I would probably even be less nervous about a skillpoint reduction. But at this point I would really like to see the proof that they understand and have plans for us. Have thought about us at all. Because I can see, in the space of time between the CU and the revamp, new devs coming on board, perceptions shifting, our lesser skillpoint requirement being looked at, and our profession being looked at eventually in a similar light to IDs. A non-com profession. And just in time for a revamp that will make us reflect this new perception.
I may be panic-mongering, but my instinctive reaction to anything right now is don't... MESS with it if you don't understand it and don't know what you want it to be in the future. I want to grab the code and keep it hostage until I know for sure they've spent some time thinking and planning before changing. But of course I cannot. This is their game, not ours. We just play it as long as it is fun, and they try to keep it fun for as long and for as many people as possile.
And of course there is the big double standard. I want all this for Ranger and yet I also don't want us to have to make it to our revamp in the condition we are in now. So will we have to accept something like a skill point reduction gladly just because it will keep people holding on until the revamp? Keep it so when there is a revamp there are still people around who care? Maybe. But I hope it doesn't come to that. We still have a month.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 04-04-2005 06:26 PM
Xman3D
Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:39 pm
#47
What do you think about increasing the skill needed to become a Ranger and then have all ranger skill for free.
The Ranger could be a Comendo able to survive on the most dangerous country.
Skill need to be novice Ranger=135 skill
Brawler 4000
Marksman 0004
Master Scout
Skill to be Master Ranger = O skill
So Ranger cost a lot of skill but you are able to master an other elite profession.
Vorpaks
Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:45 pm
#48
I think one of the strengths of the SWG design is the ability to template and dablle. This would effectively remove this fromt he Ranger profession - everyone who went Ranger would master.
The immediate danger I see in this is that our skills would never be able to made truely powerful because there would be no choice inherent in taking them. You would always have all of them and it would be a given that you would have. It also removes dabblers completely, and dabbling is not always a bad thing. A person may choose to only take the camo line to compliment Bio Engineer but not want camps or traps. Now it would simpply be too expensive.
But this is definitely an idea I hadn't considered before. Good job and good thought.
Edited because the struck part didnt make sense to me when I thought of it farther.
But this is definitely an idea I hadn't considered before. Good job and good thought.
Edited because the struck part didnt make sense to me when I thought of it farther.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 04-04-2005 06:46 PM
Calculus_Entropy
Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:51 pm
#49
Xman3D wrote:What do you think about increasing the skill needed to become a Ranger and then have all ranger skill for free.The Ranger could be a Comendo able to survive on the most dangerous country.Skill need to be novice Ranger=135 skillBrawler 4000Marksman 0004Master ScoutSkill to be Master Ranger = O skillSo Ranger cost a lot of skill but you are able to master an other elite profession.
Ummm..what?
Phenix1050
Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:02 pm
#50
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Ummm..what?
exactly. i don't get how that would help at all. you'd still have to spend a lot of skillpoints and you'd make it so anyone who would normally dabble in Ranger can now get all of it. The point of that would be???
frightwig
Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:50 pm
#51
SebFR wrote:
What is asked isn't not mastering the scout profession in order to be ranger. It's a SP cost reduction in the ranger tree, like they did for the image designer (-1 SP for each skill).
But that's a good example of how SP reduction is bad. It didn't help IDs. Ask them - they felt it cheapened their profession.
Politician is another good example - No SP cost. I doubt we're going to see a revamp any time soon for mayors.
I think when you lower the skillpoints for a profession, rather than fix it's problems, you set a precedent for this line of thinking:
"Sure, you may have problems in your profession and may want added features.. but you have more available SP now to go take up some useful skills".
I say keep our SP requirements and make it worth the investment come the revamp.
Bethya
Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:25 am
#52
The point for me though is that the SP reduction is not being applied in the CU to one profession like Image Designers. Every elite profession bar one (Ranger) is getting a reduction.
I actually feel Ranger is being cheapened by not having the SP reduction made. It says to me that we don't count... that we are not important and valuable contributors in each galaxy.
People seem to be hoping that not reducing SP will mean we do get a revamp. Even if that link was indeed true...
no reduction of SP = more likely to get a revamp
... we still have no guarantee that Ranger is even going to be revamped... many professions want a revamp and some have been waiting a lot longer than us. I'd much rather get something I can see now... equality with other elite professions as a result of the CU than hanging on to something rubbish now in the hope that we might get something else that we want sorted later.
What happens if no revamp comes and we still have SP up to our eyeballs locked into Ranger? Will we all be rueing the day we let them get away with it at the CU?