Ranger Archive
Thread: Give me Carbines or Give me DEATH!
DaveG wrote:
Rolfie wrote:
Twenty-Nine of those points after revamp go into your combat mastery also, they are dual purpose points people keep overlooking.
Hi Rolfie, (this is not a flame) Bio didn't overlook them, but there's something I think you might have overlooked - here's what I mean:
- Those 29 points only serve a dual purpose if a Ranger is going to use the Carbineer Elite combat professsion.
- If a Ranger uses another Ranged Elite combat profession (pistols or rifles), then the 14 points used to get Carbines 4 (14=29-15) wouldn't have been used if not for the proposed ranger prerequisits.
- If a Ranger uses a Melee Elite combat profession, then all 29 points (29=15+14) in marksman are serving no purpose to such a player.
I understand the numbers crunch. must have misread Bios post.
I would prefer to see RS4 as the prereq myself. I understand the melee guys are taking a hit. But if Ranger is to be the equal of the other Combat hybrids then this is unavoidable.
Only other way around it is to require a novice combat profession for Ranger to remain an equal with any other Hybrid profession.
DaveG wrote:
Owen-Lars wrote:
And i dont for one second believe what the devs say about the ui not being able to support ranger as RS4. Ive looked at the skills window and there is plenty enough room for ranger on there.<
Did they actually say that????
They want to mess the majority of ranger players around just because they can't use a smaller font or move some text around?
*bangs head on wall*
i would think its because its already rediculous how many profs already use that line.
The problem is inate with the way the skill system works. It would solve a lot of balance issues if novice profs were in a separate skill pool and once you reached a certain number of points you could advance to the advanced professions, you'd still have to take the pre-reqs but once you got the advanced prof you could drop the novice skills and lose all associated bonuses and play around with other things. That way there wouldnt be any particular profession combos that were more sp friendly than others and players could experience more of the game.
Owen-Lars wrote:
DaveG Wrote:
Did they actually say that????
They want to mess the majority of ranger players around just because they can't use a smaller font or move some text around?
Yup, that was one of the excuses.
As soon as bs was called though the conversation moved towards two lines in scout isnt an option etc and rifleman is already really powerful so we dont want to promote that profession etc.
Basically excuses when the only thing that really needs doing is move pre-reqs to ranged support 4 and trapping 4. You still need 3 tiers in pre-reqs at least for any ranger/combat template just like every other profession out there so i just dont see the issue.
Hmm, it's starting to sound like the usual story:
Dev's create animosity towards themselves because they can't communicate openly and honestly with the customers.
Spiderhammer wrote:
The problem is inate with the way the skill system works. It would solve a lot of balance issues if novice profs were in a separate skill pool and once you reached a certain number of points you could advance to the advanced professions, you'd still have to take the pre-reqs but once you got the advanced prof you could drop the novice skills and lose all associated bonuses and play around with other things. That way there wouldnt be any particular profession combos that were more sp friendly than others and players could experience more of the game.
I like that - nice idea.... go further even. Unrestricted access to novice professions, but a more limited pool (say, 150) of skillpoints for elite professions....
Of course, major balance issues with, for example, the entirety of ranger moving to master scout - but as a concept - I like it!
- Those 29 points only serve a dual purpose if a Ranger is going to use the Carbineer Elite combat professsion.
- If a Ranger uses another Ranged Elite combat profession (pistols or rifles), then the 14 points used to get Carbines 4 (14=29-15) wouldn't have been used if not for the proposed ranger prerequisits.
- If a Ranger uses a Melee Elite combat profession, then all 29 points (29=15+14) in marksman are serving no purpose to such a player.
My answer on this are the following questions in alphabetical order:
- Bounty Hunter: Why does the BH have ranged support as requirement? What good is that for the melee BH?
- Bounty Hunter: Why does the BH have exploration as requirement? There is no terrain negotiation in BH.
- Combat Medic: Why does the CM have ranged support as requirement? The CM has no ranged abilities based upon this, so it apparently makes no sense according to the logic used in this thread.
- Creature Handler: Why does the CH have exploration as requirement? There is no terrain negotiation in CH.
- Commando: Why does Commando have unarmed as requirement? They don't use it at all.
- Smuggler: Why doesSmuggler have unarmed as requirement? They don't use it at all.
- Squad Leader: Why does theSL have ranged support as requirement? What good is that for the melee SL?
- Squad Leader: Why does the SL have survival as requirement? It haslittle use at all and no SL ability is based upon it.
Based upon this i dare to say, the Carbine requirement for the Ranger, while perhaps not being the best choice, also is not giving such a big disadvantage compared to other professions around.
When you say "while perhaps not being the best choice, also is not giving such a big disadvantage compared to other professions around", this is true. However, it is a slippery road to go down because where do we draw the line at where we're prepared to "settle for second best" ? We might as well set out what we don't like and/or don't want from as early as possible so the devs has as much time as possible to (hopefully) do something about it.
Now to your questions:
Exploration:
Bounty Hunters and Creature Handlers both enjoy the benefits of the exploration line. Both professions involve a certain amount of on-foot pursuit for which Terrain Negotiation is helpful. For Bounty Hunters it is while they are chasing (or escaping from) their mark. For creature handlers it is for keeping up with an infant they are trying to tame. Ironically though this will not be the case after we get our revamp because unless I've read things wrong, Scout is loosing the Terrain Negotiation skill, which I suspect is going to be a long-burning issue with a lot of players.
Ranged Support:
This tree has generic combat mods for ranged combat, and as such is useful to any template using ranged weapons. So for that much, it makes sense for many professions to use it. However, it has ruled out many melee templates.
Unarmed:
In Commando and Smuggler, the only reason I see is that there's a kind of roleplay backing to it. Commando's should be experts at all forms of combat, and Smugglers may tend to be brawlers as a part of their lifestyle. Although in practice it does seem to do either of them little good.
DaveG wrote:
Hi Sylow,
When you say "while perhaps not being the best choice, also is not giving such a big disadvantage compared to other professions around", this is true. However, it is a slippery road to go down because where do we draw the line at where we're prepared to "settle for second best" ? We might as well set out what we don't like and/or don't want from as early as possible so the devs has as much time as possible to (hopefully) do something about it.
Now to your questions:
Exploration:
Bounty Hunters and Creature Handlers both enjoy the benefits of the exploration line. Both professions involve a certain amount of on-foot pursuit for which Terrain Negotiation is helpful. For Bounty Hunters it is while they are chasing (or escaping from) their mark. For creature handlers it is for keeping up with an infant they are trying to tame. Ironically though this will not be the case after we get our revamp because unless I've read things wrong, Scout is loosing the Terrain Negotiation skill, which I suspect is going to be a long-burning issue with a lot of players.
Ranged Support:
This tree has generic combat mods for ranged combat, and as such is useful to any template using ranged weapons. So for that much, it makes sense for many professions to use it. However, it has ruled out many melee templates.
Unarmed:
In Commando and Smuggler, the only reason I see is that there's a kind of roleplay backing to it. Commando's should be experts at all forms of combat, and Smugglers may tend to be brawlers as a part of their lifestyle. Although in practice it does seem to do either of them little good.
Then why can't carbines be seen as a roleplay backing. For an advanced recon scout carbines would be the ranged weapon of choice. However I can say the same agrument about unarmed because it is a self defense fighting skill that would used "silently" to attack while remain stealthy. They will not give ranged support do to the imbalance that it will create as well as Rangers (in dev version or v 2.0) is not a ranged support profession. The invisioned profession is an alpha strike (assualt) and recon. For this the weapons of choiceis a carbine, 1-handweapon (dagger), and unarmed. Rifles are for long range single target heavy damage, and pistol is for close range defense.Carbines and Melee are the only true offensive assualt weapons.
So Maybe the answer is to move Ranger out from under the Scout requirement all together.
Make Ranger have a prereq of Marksman 0004 and then make the other requirement Brawler ????.
Thenas a Ranger it doesn't matter whether you are Melee or Ranged. If all Ranger skills are being based and modified off the new Ranger Hybrid skill set why bother to keep Scout?
Seems if you want to make the melee guys and ranged guys happy this would do it.
Ranger would stand on it own two feet.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-26-2005 09:53 AM
Would disallow me to dabble into it. But, aside from the personal preference, your suggestion actually has some credit.
Make Ranger have a prereq of Marksman 0004 and then make the other requirement Brawler ?
Rolfie wrote:
So Maybe the answer is to move Ranger out from under the Scout requirement all together.
Make Ranger have a prereq of Marksman 0004 and then make the other requirement Brawler ????.
Then as a Ranger it doesn't matter whether you are Melee or Ranged. If all Ranger skills are being based and modified off the new Ranger Hybrid skill set why bother to keep Scout?
Seems if you want to make the melee guys and ranged guys happy this would do it.
Ranger would stand on it own two feet.
Message Edited by Rolfie on 09-26-2005 09:53 AM
I've thought about this too and I think One-Handed IV would be the most appropriate. However, that would still put TKA's and Pikemen at a disadvantage.
Adding a line from carbines to the pre-req's when they add this revamp is one of the daftest things i've heard of.
Surely two lines from scout would be enough? After all we creature handlers only need two lines from scout so why not you rangers?
There are some stupid choices being made by the dev team here - removing /aretrack for one, but this? This is utterly stupid and is complete BS beyond belief.