Ranger Archive
Thread: Why should rangers get a ranger-specific weapon(s)?
hirosue
Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:22 am
#27
Because it would be nice 
We have a totally useless skill tree in the guise of ranger camps . Ranger camps do nothing to enhance our class , except to allow us to deploy scenic camps,which are ever so useful - not . The debate about giving rangers something extra is partially fuelled by this totally useless skill tree and the points we have to spend on it.
Some sort of effective ranger only weapon or weapons certification , added to the camps skill tree would make these skill points actually worth something . Likewise a ranger only series of weapons would help distinguish our class .
However ,to be fair , basing a weapon requirement solely on the ranger camps tree would only allow us to have a weapon equivalent of 14 skill points in a novice combat class , i.e. 1 novice marksman or brawler tree of 4 blocks . Such a basic weapon , and the combat bonuses given for a single novice combat tree of 4 blocks , will hardly allow a ranger go out there and fight strong creatures or PvP effectively .
Don’t get me wrong , I would really like to see ranger only weapons , however , looking at the skills we get from ranger i.e. traps, area track and terrain negotiation , it would seam hard to justify a weapon tree . Unless of course we get the aforementioned novice combat class weapons type of weapons .Which at the end of the day wont be of any real use .
The best thing to improve our class would be to add +50 , mask scent / camouflage / traps and harvesting bonuses to our camps tree . This would give us the over all class bonuses that we should get , based on our preceding profession of master scout .Just compare the bonuses that a master combat class gets over its novice fore runner . i.e. rifleman
To get ranger specific weapons and combat defence or bonuses would be nice , but something effective and useful will immediately reverse the argument . We will in effect be getting far more for our master ranger skill points spent than a master elite combat profession does .
We have a totally useless skill tree in the guise of ranger camps . Ranger camps do nothing to enhance our class , except to allow us to deploy scenic camps,which are ever so useful - not . The debate about giving rangers something extra is partially fuelled by this totally useless skill tree and the points we have to spend on it.
Some sort of effective ranger only weapon or weapons certification , added to the camps skill tree would make these skill points actually worth something . Likewise a ranger only series of weapons would help distinguish our class .
However ,to be fair , basing a weapon requirement solely on the ranger camps tree would only allow us to have a weapon equivalent of 14 skill points in a novice combat class , i.e. 1 novice marksman or brawler tree of 4 blocks . Such a basic weapon , and the combat bonuses given for a single novice combat tree of 4 blocks , will hardly allow a ranger go out there and fight strong creatures or PvP effectively .
Don’t get me wrong , I would really like to see ranger only weapons , however , looking at the skills we get from ranger i.e. traps, area track and terrain negotiation , it would seam hard to justify a weapon tree . Unless of course we get the aforementioned novice combat class weapons type of weapons .Which at the end of the day wont be of any real use .
The best thing to improve our class would be to add +50 , mask scent / camouflage / traps and harvesting bonuses to our camps tree . This would give us the over all class bonuses that we should get , based on our preceding profession of master scout .Just compare the bonuses that a master combat class gets over its novice fore runner . i.e. rifleman
To get ranger specific weapons and combat defence or bonuses would be nice , but something effective and useful will immediately reverse the argument . We will in effect be getting far more for our master ranger skill points spent than a master elite combat profession does .
So if it was a choice between better harvesting /mask ,camoflage / traps bonuses or a basic ranger weapon certification , I think the class as a whole would be better off without a ranger weapon .
But we can always hope .
Cheers
ryoko
ryoko
Message Edited by hirosue on 09-20-2004 06:24 AM
Message Edited by hirosue on 09-20-2004 07:32 AM
Calculus_Entropy
Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:23 am
#28
Nemo0 wrote:
Umm, what matters to your kill rate is your damage per second (DPS). Currently, there is not much of a way to increase your DPS over a master combat profession (BH/pistols or carbines might but I really don't know). So a Swordsman/Fencer is going to need to spend just as much time killing a creature as a Swordsman except for one thing. The Swordsman/Fencer will have much better defenses to states and damage, meaning that they won't have to heal or worry about getting stunned/etc nearly as much.
Bingo! When considering how a stacker can kill more things more quickly that a single combat profession master, you have to consider that their downtime (healing in and out of combat)is less than ours, due to their various defenses and whatnot.
Calculus_Entropy
Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:30 am
#29
Landorien wrote:If ranger is solely a creaturehunter, why oh why is the 4th tracking box focused at "manhunting"?
Honestly, I think it was an oversight on the devs part when tracking was implemented. The name implies too much.
DaveG
Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:03 am
#30
JBMat wrote:
Again, a bow would be useful mainly because it would ONLY AFFECT CREATURES.
We are creature hunters. You want to PvP, you are in the wrong profession. The combat the manual talks of could easily be "creature" combat. Hell, the combat X is the same for PvP, PvE, Pv NPC.
If the bow only affected creatures, it'd be like the traps are now (as we say in the UK): A BIG COP OUT.
The traps area ranger's only active defensive asset (camo being passive), and it is highly illogical and inconsistent that they only effect wild animals.
"Look I've got this phenacine dart, it's a good strong drug, it'd even slow a rancor down for a breif moment. The funny thing is though, if I throw it at that little Bothan over there (or even the Bothan's pet rancor), then it's like it doesn't exist. I don't understand what's going on. It's a real problem for me too, because I'm a ranger and a bio-engineer I have no other way to defend myself if any of them attack me. At least if any of the three of them went for me, then I could buy myself time to run away by darting them, but it'd only work on the first one. It's really really weird."
Rangers shouldn't have a dedicated weapon, however if our traps worked properly, and worked on anything, then there'd be no need(or even idea) for a dedicated ranger weapon. I defy anyone to say traps are an offensive measure. They are defensive, that being so, we all know we are liable to attack from anything, so our traps should be able to work on anything in return.
While it may be true that you are not forced to take a combat profession with ranger, lets face it, many of us do for a very simple reason. We want to choose to play the role of the lone hunter. That being so, those players are going to be combatants, and are at a big disadvantage having already spent 140 skill points on Master Ranger. Therefore, we really should get some better innate defences to compensate for only being able to take one elite combat profession. Note I'm only asking for defences, I'm not asking for the ability to do more damage, all I'm asking for that the ranger who walks in the wild to be more resilient when he/she is attacked.
A while ago, I granted someone "Master Ranger" status in a ceremony my village was having and I gave this speech:
Rangers,
We walk in the wild and know all it's secrets.
We walk in the wild, the unseen hunter.
We walk in the wild and will guide you home.
We walk in the wild and know all it's secrets.
We walk in the wild, the unseen hunter.
We walk in the wild and will guide you home.
I can only put my hand on my heart and say that the first one 100% applies to how Ranger is now. Camo is good, but could be better (so that we really are unseen 'unseen'). As for the third, we can /rescue people, but if it's a serious enough creature, we're not going to last very long. The /rescue ability is basically a flag saying "I'm a tank", this is another good reason to beef up our innate defences.
Message Edited by DaveG on 09-20-2004 04:08 PM
Owen-Lars
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:21 am
#31
I defy anyone to say traps are an offensive measure. They are defensive, that being so, we all know we are liable to attack from anything, so our traps should be able to work on anything in return.
That is an opinion because there are alot of rangers, including myself, 0who believe that trapsshould be implemented in a waythatprovides defensive abilities andcould also be considered an offensive asset.
Ground traps is what im talking about, these could work on players and npcs to, its rangerish, digging and whole and camoflauging it from view it perfect imo for ranger ground based traps that could effect the gcw aswel as pve circuit. Currently rangers get 1 partially effective trap (flash bomb) which is very weak in what it does. The range of traps and effects of these traps should be increased a hell of alot and to include ground traps in this.
Ground traps could fit perfect alongside stealth abilities because we would be able to sneak around and plant traps at the feet of unsuspecting foes. The effects a ground trap could do to a target could be:
Name: Adhesive Detonation Netting
Effect:Immobility. Animal walks over a adhesive mesh net and triggers a launch mechanism that smothers the creature/player in adhesive gunk. The player/target becomes immobile until shot at, which breaks the netting.
Purpose:This trap is to be used as a crowd controller in combat so you tell the group to hold back, snare the attacking animals then pick of targets individually whilst the others are stuck.
Name:Spike Pit (creature only)
Effect:%HAM decrease. The animalfalls down a pit onto spikes and its HAM is reduced by a percentage.
Purpose: Used as a pre-attack measure to reduce the toughness of the beast
You can obviously think of more but there is definatly potential there for offensive orientated traps. Maybe not even direct damage however resist reductions, ham reduction, armour negation and mobility effect can play a large part in our offensive areas.
DaveG
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:35 am
#32
Owen-Lars wrote:
That is an opinion because there are alot of rangers, including myself, 0who believe that trapsshould be implemented in a waythatprovides defensive abilities andcould also be considered an offensive asset.
Well since none of those traps actually exist in the game, I think what you're saying should be taken as prooving my point.
Vorpaks
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:38 am
#33
I have to say I'm in Nemo's camp in this discussion (pun intended). If we had a Ranger specific weapon I don't know if I would actually want to use it - I am rather attached to my caster. Also, a weapon like a bow would require a combat playstyle change from people who enjoy melee professions.
I would rather see a special attack usable by any combat class added. Even over that I would prefer mods to survivability - Ranger Toughness (being more a survivalist than a hunter at heart).
I do totally understand that stackers and such can do more DPS than us, and therefore harvest much faster ie: hunt much faster/better than us. I do think that is wrong. However, I think there are other solutions such as the Ranger terminal accessible from our camps. For me most of the S in DPS is spent running back to town to get another mission so I can be assured of finding the type of resource I'm looking for. A terminal would allow me to spawn whatever I want, whereever and whenever I want it. Thus cutting down on time spent running back and forth. This isn't the only the solution or maybe even the best solution, but it is one alternative way to make us more efficient hunters in my opinion. Another way is through trap revamp. Make them more offensive (no pun intended). Enhance our combat skills that way.
There also seems to be a lot of questions in this thread of why ARE we hunters? Why is combat our main focus? Personally I think this is something that has evolved from the fact that out of all our skill lines, harvesting is the only one that is really worth anything. After over a year of having only one truly useful/unique skill people have begun forming their characters around that skill, optimizing their templates to use it, and centering their vision of what Ranger is upon it. Maybe we were not initially meant to be a combat class, but because our one really useful skill is dependent on combat, we have also become dependent on combat. Because we are dependent on combat, being a Master Ranger is basically a three master profession. And even then we feel we don't really stack up (pun intended) to the combat monsters who have novice scout. I agree that all this is the case.... and yet I still can't seem to agree with having a Ranger-specific weapon.
For one thing this weapon would have to be immensely powerful. Why would I give up the strength of my master rifleman powered T21 in order to use a Ranger weapon that is less powerful? If the Ranger weapon was just as powerful or more powerful then why would anyone bother being a combat profession if they could get an uber mater combat style weapon AND get all the other Ranger bonuses on top of it? For me the Ranger weapon would not be worth it if it was less powerful than a master combat class weapon, and would be unbalancing if it was equal to or more powerful than a master class weapon.
The people I see it benefitting are definitely the Ranger/BE, Ranger/SL templates. For that I could maybe agree with the concept. But if it is weak enough to not be unbalancing, then I think it has ceased to be the answer to making us the BEST hunters. It is just a nice to have skill that is maybe not worth the points.
To sum up: I would rather see us become more efficient hunters WITHOUT focusing us more on combat or needing elite combat skills. I would also like to see our other skills enhanced so that "hunter" is not the only useful thing we can be. (Which is not a part of the argument really because I know, regardless on our stance on a weapon, that we would all like to see this.)
EDIT: After all that rambling I just realized you can read the points I was trying to make in greater clarity HERE.
I would rather see a special attack usable by any combat class added. Even over that I would prefer mods to survivability - Ranger Toughness (being more a survivalist than a hunter at heart).
I do totally understand that stackers and such can do more DPS than us, and therefore harvest much faster ie: hunt much faster/better than us. I do think that is wrong. However, I think there are other solutions such as the Ranger terminal accessible from our camps. For me most of the S in DPS is spent running back to town to get another mission so I can be assured of finding the type of resource I'm looking for. A terminal would allow me to spawn whatever I want, whereever and whenever I want it. Thus cutting down on time spent running back and forth. This isn't the only the solution or maybe even the best solution, but it is one alternative way to make us more efficient hunters in my opinion. Another way is through trap revamp. Make them more offensive (no pun intended). Enhance our combat skills that way.
There also seems to be a lot of questions in this thread of why ARE we hunters? Why is combat our main focus? Personally I think this is something that has evolved from the fact that out of all our skill lines, harvesting is the only one that is really worth anything. After over a year of having only one truly useful/unique skill people have begun forming their characters around that skill, optimizing their templates to use it, and centering their vision of what Ranger is upon it. Maybe we were not initially meant to be a combat class, but because our one really useful skill is dependent on combat, we have also become dependent on combat. Because we are dependent on combat, being a Master Ranger is basically a three master profession. And even then we feel we don't really stack up (pun intended) to the combat monsters who have novice scout. I agree that all this is the case.... and yet I still can't seem to agree with having a Ranger-specific weapon.
For one thing this weapon would have to be immensely powerful. Why would I give up the strength of my master rifleman powered T21 in order to use a Ranger weapon that is less powerful? If the Ranger weapon was just as powerful or more powerful then why would anyone bother being a combat profession if they could get an uber mater combat style weapon AND get all the other Ranger bonuses on top of it? For me the Ranger weapon would not be worth it if it was less powerful than a master combat class weapon, and would be unbalancing if it was equal to or more powerful than a master class weapon.
The people I see it benefitting are definitely the Ranger/BE, Ranger/SL templates. For that I could maybe agree with the concept. But if it is weak enough to not be unbalancing, then I think it has ceased to be the answer to making us the BEST hunters. It is just a nice to have skill that is maybe not worth the points.
To sum up: I would rather see us become more efficient hunters WITHOUT focusing us more on combat or needing elite combat skills. I would also like to see our other skills enhanced so that "hunter" is not the only useful thing we can be. (Which is not a part of the argument really because I know, regardless on our stance on a weapon, that we would all like to see this.)
EDIT: After all that rambling I just realized you can read the points I was trying to make in greater clarity HERE.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 09-20-2004 02:49 PM
BlakkStar
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:47 am
#34
but you will have to defy me. I have said that I believe traps to be offensive in nature and I will stand by that but I will secede to them also being defensive as well. It simply depends on which trap you are speaking about. U used phenacine darts in your example. Ok I will give u that one. However what about noise makers? The stun effect is purely an offensive maneuver. There is nothing defensive about it. Also including in this would be the wire mesh, glow wire and glow juice traps. All of them are offensive. Lowering a creatures defense, is by definition an offensive technique.
Phenix1050
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:48 am
#35
Okay, I have another reason why Ranger should get a weapon. They just should. They're Rangers...okay, hear me out.
It's the same logic that allows smugglers to make spice now that they no longer have to have any crafting. The same logic behind Squad Leaders having a very little combat experience and a little camping experience to make them leaders. (Thanks to Owen for giving me the logic for this argument)
Simply put there are often big jumps from the prerequisites to the elite box. The smuggler is the best example. A karate-chopping, pistol-shooting guy isn't gonna be able to make drugs. But those abilities make him able to be SAFE when learning how to do those things. The explanation for smugglers being able to craft things without the prerequisites is basically "they are able to because that's what they do. They're smugglers, they make spice & they slice things." What that means is that training in that novice box changes them. They learn new abilities at novice that have NOTHING to do with the experience they used to get to that point.
Why then, shouldn't Rangers be able to offer the same explanation? They are Rangers....they hunt stuff. The explanation comes from the fact that by dedicating themselves to living outdoors, they must first be instructed in forms of combat that allow them to better survive against creatures. There you go. That's why. Rangers should get weapons because they are Rangers.
oh, and yes, Rangers are a combat class. Traps do damage, which is only done through combat. and only COMBAT classes can apply state effects. Thus while we are reduced to creature combat...we are still combatants.
Phenix1050
Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:52 am
#36
BlakkStar wrote:
I have said that I believe traps to be offensive in nature and I will stand by that but I will secede to them also being defensive as well.
Ummm...aren't weapons also offensive in nature? Isn't that whatdefines combat classesas combat classes?Doctors and musicians aren't offensive skills. Neither are crafting skills. Thus since you believe traps to be offensive, you must also agree that Rangers have offensive skills...making them similar to any other combat class...
DaveG
Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:13 pm
#37
At least we all do agree on that we want to get a bigger return on our 140 skill points. I think there might even be a small majority who believe that the return should be improving our existing skills rather than adding new skills.
However, the big difference in opinion comes from that there seems to be two different types of ranger. There is the "total support" ranger (such as SL/Ranger), then there are the rangers who prefare to be the lone hunter (of which I count myself).
I really believe the answer lies in seriously improving the things we can do already.
- Make our traps more powerful.
- Make our traps effect every type of (living) enemy target.
- Make our camps more useful.
- Improve our camoflauge.
I think doing this would improve things for the total support templates as well as the lone hunters. Especially if the traps were changed as listed above, then we'd be as close to a "ranger weapon" as we should get.
Nemo0
Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:17 pm
#38
I would quote DaveG (not the message right above but the one above that)here but it's a bit long.
I must be really odd. I find the Ranger/Squad Leader role to be perfectly viable and a lot of fun to play. And I would have tried Ranger/BE except that I don't like crafting grinds and resource management. These profession choices are just that: choices. I have a lot of fun as a Ranger/Squad Leader. Does it make me useless in many respects? Yes. But it also makes me extremely useful in others (very few people turn down a Ranger/Squad Leader when they go hunting big game). The same applies to a Ranger/BE. I have camo to keep me hidden a bit better when sampling and I have burst run efficiency and traps to get away if I do get discovered. Buffs and armor will keep me safe enough for the brief time I am under attack.
Ranger skills are not only useful for combat. In fact, only3 of them (traps, defense at master [minimally different than a dancer or musician....], and to hit bonus) directly apply during combat. The rest of them are used before or after combat which can be performed either by you or a group member.
If this was a single player game with only combat implemented, I would agree that a Ranger weapon is only fair. But you are not meant to go hunting solo. The focus should not be on making Ranger a profession that can exist on its own but on making Ranger a profession that works well in a multiplayer environment. A Ranger weapon is trying to make the profession more independent. I think that is going in the wrong direction.
Yes, a true Ranger probably should be completely independent. But we are dealing with a Ranger in a multiplayer game. Look at the recent Jedi changes. You can no longer have every Jedi skill. You have to choose what is important to you and find other players to make up for your weaknesses. It is currently possible to make a Jedi with no serious combat skills (Healing, Defense, and Enhancement are all support profession for Jedi and Force Powers mostly fall in this range as well--only lightsabers are fully combat oriented). Is a Jedi without good combat skills useful? Yes, but they will need a group to fight.
Message Edited by Nemo0 on 09-20-2004 08:17 AM
Nemo0
Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:31 pm
#39
DaveG wrote:
At least we all do agree on that we want to get a bigger return on our 140 skill points. I think there might even be a small majority who believe that the return should be improving our existing skills rather than adding new skills.
However, the big difference in opinion comes from that there seems to be two different types of ranger. There is the "total support" ranger (such as SL/Ranger), then there are the rangers who prefare to be the lone hunter (of which I count myself).
I really believe the answer lies in seriously improving the things we can do already.
- Make our traps more powerful.
- Make our traps effect every type of (living) enemy target.
- Make our camps more useful.
- Improve our camoflauge.
I think doing this would improve things for the total support templates as well as the lone hunters. Especially if the traps were changed as listed above, then we'd be as close to a "ranger weapon" as we should get.
Most of the time I still play solo. I don't have combat skills but I'm not the biggest fan of combat in this game. I enjoy wandering around alone. But I also enjoy playing in a group. Solo hunting started to bore me (I've soloed most creatures that shouldn't be soloed [as a Ranger/Rifleman or Ranger/CH, mainly], including krayt ancients, nightsister elders, gorax, etc, some without any buffs, armor, chef food, etc). The tactics are easy. Working a group is more fun. You keep the group together in such a way that everyone survives andtargets die quickly. It's actually harder for me to kill a krayt with a group than it used to be as a solo rifleman. But it's actually more fun.
If I want to fight, I grab a group. But most of the time I just wander around on my own. In all these situations, your list above helps. What might seem odd is that a Ranger weapon would help the support role out more than it would help the lone hunter. The lone hunter almost certainly has a combat profession already. The other Rangers have chosen to give up (or never pick up) their combat skills. You don't need to fight to get them a weapon.