Ranger Archive

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:

Hmm... analogy: Smuggler has a Technique tree using special pistols shot. Makes that them a combat class? No! They're not considered a combat class, and no they're not taken into account in the CU either. first off, you're not on the CU team, you really shouldn't make abosolute statements about a system you don't have 100% information on . secondly, TH stated in the CU developmet thread thatsmugglers ARE recieving changes which DOES make them a combat class.

Yes, they ARE now, for that I stand corrected, I overlooked the profession in Blairs post.

But in the CURRENT system they're not. So for them it's changed. And thats because probably the whole pistol idea is changed as well as the slicing. And it was about time for them too.

Further more,I made a comparison with the current situation and that's about it. No need to put me down as I will not , so stop patronizing me.

A point of difference: the skills the smuggler get with this tree even works on NPC characters _and_ players.

Our Ranger traps only work on NPC creatures. Hence if we _were_ a combat class, it would be a completely crippled combat class (only be able to combat 1/3 of the system). Which is exactly what we're trying to CHANGE. The creature-cetric role that we have hurts us as a profession because we have no identity. Think about it this way: there are 4 "types" of professions: combat, healing, social and crafting. Which is Ranger closest to? Combat. Third, in many MMOs there is always a stealth class-- the "assassin" who sacrifices raw power for the ability to sneak around. Avoidance is just another part of combat. if you can walk into theed camo'd up and do recon on how many stormtroopers there are without getting aggro'd...that's a part of combat, in my opinion. Ask any military person here-- having good intel is always usefull for combat.

This is pointless. I was comparing things and you are trying to make me say things I didn't. Again, I'm looking at the current system and comparing it to, maybe, the system as it might be. Right NOW, unless IT IS CHANGED, I do not think of Ranger as a Combat professions or as a clearly crippled one.

And ofcourse I do want to change it and make it more stand out. And for your it might be COMBAT to wich it is closest, to me its a combination of social AND crafing. I do get the ocasional hunts for stuff for artisans and make a few things myself, but most and for all I like the company of my pets and just playing and talking with friends. So it's HOW you play it.

For your record, I still not sure about being in camo works against NPC. And it's besides the point, cause as Ranger, I tend to be the more of a Nature friendly (=neutral) Ranger that doesn't give much concern to galactic rulers or it's opponents. Again, it's HOW you play.

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SickSix wrote:

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Phenix1050 wrote:

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Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:

Hmm... analogy: Smuggler has a Technique tree using special pistols shot. Makes that them a combat class? No! They're not considered a combat class, and no they're not taken into account in the CU either. first off, you're not on the CU team, you really shouldn't make abosolute statements about a system you don't have 100% information on . secondly, TH stated in the CU developmet thread thatsmugglers ARE recieving changes which DOES make them a combat class.

A point of difference: the skills the smuggler get with this tree even works on NPC characters _and_ players.

Our Ranger traps only work on NPC creatures. Hence if we _were_ a combat class, it would be a completely crippled combat class (only be able to combat 1/3 of the system). Which is exactly what we're trying to CHANGE. The creature-cetric role that we have hurts us as a profession because we have no identity. Think about it this way: there are 4 "types" of professions: combat, healing, social and crafting. Which is Ranger closest to? Combat. Third, in many MMOs there is always a stealth class-- the "assassin" who sacrifices raw power for the ability to sneak around. Avoidance is just another part of combat. if you can walk into theed camo'd up and do recon on how many stormtroopers there are without getting aggro'd...that's a part of combat, in my opinion. Ask any military person here-- having good intel is always usefull for combat.

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preach it!

any profession where Engaging in Combat is REQUIRED to level the profession, is a Combat Class. that may not be SOEs current definition, but thats how it should be.

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That's all you have to say?

1. You made my point: it is HOW it should be, but it isn't NOW. Therefore Ranger is NOT a combat class.

2. And ofcourse it should change, but that falls beyond the scope of this thread.

1. Ranger currently is not an (elite) combat profession due to:




1. No weapon proficiencies (anyone knowing a bit of DnD know this mostly qualifies as a combat class) except trapping.


2. Trapping itself only works on AI controlled pets. If it were real combat it would work on ANYthing (yes, players, players pets, even droids). Imagine a strong enough mesh on an at-st (especially around the legs would make it fall, wouldn't it?)


3. Trapping does not do much damage, compared to real other kinds of weapons.


4. @Owen: Ranger (along with SL, CH) are not taken along WITH the Combat revamp. That contradicts, so also in SOE/Devs eyes (even tough you argue very hard in favor of it) Ranger is not a combat class. In fact, I'm very worried for the coming Revamp of the CU after it has come live, cause I foresee inbalance with THOSE professions now not taken into account during the CU development.


2. Ranger should be an (elite) combat profession:




1. The use of traps, if they were made to work on everything out there that can walk/ride/fly (except in space, lol.... Thinking of someone telling the wiremesh doesn't work against a YT-1400 lol)


2. The effectiveness of traps increased


3. More traps


4. Maybe even some extra weapon proficiencies


5. Ranger already costs more sp then 1 Elite combat profession (and still will), so I still wonder what the additional value is of the Ranger. Well actuallyI do know, because I like being one, but just think about what I said and answer the question for yourself.

That's my POV. You can argue all you want, but it won't change my POV.

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Some piece of Owen-Lars:

People say that you should get rangerto support yourweapons specialisationprofession, i say you should get a weapons specialisation to support your ranger skills. Ranger wont be 100% effective on its own, but this game has never been about 1 class, its been about a template of skills and when you have ranger in your template it should be the focus of thattemplate, not an enhancer. Its relevant to thistopic because ranger is heavily involved in combat as a combat profession and your weapons specialisation should support those ranger skills making you more effective in combat.

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Yes, with THAT I agree. Problem is to define which specialisation.

Message Edited by Dariane_Kamutsovy on 03-26-2005 02:34 PM

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BioEngine wrote:

Ok, I've seen some issues, and here are my thoughts on 'em.

4) Master Musicians and Dancers get +10 to Ranged and Melee Defense?

All I can freakin' say without getting banned is WTH????!!!!

Why are Master Dancers and Musicians getting a bonus to Ranged and Melee DEFENSE?????!!!!!

Why do they descriminate against non-combatants by putting them into combat with wandering NPC's and creatures? Are we going to have to invent a new profession titled "Body Guard?"

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Well, in fact, it makes a little bit of sense, more for dancers then musicians tough, but within those professions you know your body (strength and weaknesses) and how to control them.

Take this example:

Look at a ballet-girl and imagine someone is trying to hit her head with a stick. Her reaction is doing a split and roll aside...

Think of martial arts artist like Jet-Li, Chan... No doubt they are very good dancers too

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Nemo0 wrote:

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Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:

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Nemo0 wrote:

Would you consider someone a Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader (i.e. no elite damage dealing profession) close enough to Master Ranger on its own? With this configuration, I would regularly go Rancor and Nightsister hunting unbuffed and unarmored. Without my Ranger skills, I would have died a lot more often (traps, terrain negotiation, and maskscent/conceal). It takes a while to kill stuff but a Master Ranger with a CDEF can kill some quite high level stuff with no extra combat skills.

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As you said yourself: Ranger allows you to SURVIVE. Question you need to ask yourself: would Ranger SUFFICE to kill them _without_ the help of a combat profession? I think the answer would be: no, you cannot! Hence: Ranger in itself is not a combat class!

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Sorry I didn't make it clear but I meant I did this stuff solo. And I won most of the time. I even managed to get some decent loot that way. Ranger and Scout skills are what allowed me to kill the stuff. If the enemy can't hit me, they can't win. With Rancors, this means a lot of traps. With Nightsisters, this means keeping out of range with TN. In both cases, my maskscent or camo allows me to move around without worrying about extra agro as much. Doing enough damage takes a while but it is possible to do if you have enough patience.

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Great. Now we're at a full circle again.

I reacted to JB cause he posted he could do it within an hour. You now say it takes time (=patience) to do.

Hence my point is made.If you don't understand, try reading the post and reply sequence...

One question remains: were you buffed and wearing armor ?

Cause if you were, likely, according to CU, you might not be able to wear it anymore...

New rules:

1. If you aren't on the alpha team, don't post wild speculations.


2. If you haven't read all the public CU documents, in their entirety, don't try to tell people what is and isn't covered in the CU (see rule 1).

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Nemo0 wrote:
The Combat Upgrade Rangers are trying their best to make sure that Ranger comes out of the CU in the best state possible. The Devs are definitely aware of Ranger issues but the final decision lies with them. While I don't want to comment (for fear of breaking the NDA), know that issues such as these are definitely in the Devs' spotlight.

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Yes the Dev's are aware, they always have been. In the spotlight, probably, but doubtful. If they hold to true form, they will tell us what they want, then give a quick "here ya go, gooood boyyyyy", (Creature Harvest Bonus), then we will be forgotten along the wayside for something like "The Angry Bothan with Rabies" expansion.

I really hope what you say is true my friend, and I really, really, really hope that it does come to pass. But from the track record I highly doubt it. My Rangers in the CU will not go out without a fight, this is the only thing I know for sure.

Why do Entertainers get melee defense? Because of the bottles thrown at the ugly ones.

Message Edited by Enoshima on 03-26-2005 09:24 AM

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Calculus_Entropy wrote:

New rules:

1. If you aren't on the alpha team, don't post wild speculations.


2. If you haven't read all the public CU documents, in their entirety, don't try to tell people what is and isn't covered in the CU (see rule 1).

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In yellow

Thanks for commenting normally, cause a few people seem to have a lack of this courtesy...

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Owen-Lars wrote:

Dariane_Kamutsovy Wrote:

"@Owen: Ranger (along with SL, CH) are not taken along WITH the Combat revamp. That contradicts, so also in SOE/Devs eyes (even tough you argue very hard in favor of it) Ranger is not a combat class"

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I couldnt realy get my head around what you were getting at so ill just comment on what i thought you were getting at. If im way out then say sumet and ill answer the proper point but here goes:

SL and Smuggler are getting their combat areas in the CU, whilst CH and Ranger are not. This is a bad situation to be in at first glance, simply because we are being left out. However the fact is that its not because we are not a combat profession (we have argued this tirelessly in the CU forums and many many others argree here) but because what is the point of revamping a line or two of ranger when it doesnt adress the major issues within ranger, which are we are not unique and we are creature only.

I do agree with the fact that thecombat involved currently is only focussed on creatures. I also said I'd like Ranger to be more of a full combat class (ie more meaning in actual combat in PvP when it comes along). And also true that there is need for some mayor changes, instead of just a few lines.

Rangers ARE combat centric andhaving skills and weapons focused around just creature combatjustifies this, even if it is an extremely limited role in combat.

As I stated before, this is exactly how I feel about it: a crippled combat profession (situation now). For me, again personally, it means not fit for combat. I wouldn't send out military only half trained and with weapons that only work against creatures

I think the main point though is that even in our current ever so limited form, we do have skills that engage us in combat, focused around being in combat and revolve around the combat system. Yes we are 'gimped' in a sense and this is what we are hoping to address in the future, but the combat orientation is already there, we just need to open it up and build upon it.

100% agree, thats how I stated it as in the "situation now" and the "sitatuation to be". If you don't mind me saying so, extremely gimped too, since traps are effective, but not nearly as effective as a blow from a TKA, or a shot from a Rifleman nor a grenade from a SL... That's the second part that tells me Ranger is "not combat ready". For me, yet again personally, another point to conclude Ranger is not a combat profession yet.

If there was unlimited time, we would be in the combat upgrade because we are a combat class, but there isnt unlimited time, very little infact and certain professions are more involved in combat than others. We are still a combat class but not as focused as professions such as rifleman, bh or smuggler. Sure this could change after our revamp but that doesnt mean we are not a combat class at this time, just a very weak combat class at this time. CH are in the same boat, they are also a combat class but not in the CU, decisions need to be made, and in regards to ranger this was there wasnt enough time to do the work that ranger needs in the time alloted for the CU. So we need to wait.

And again you strike exactly what I wanted to say. So to clarify, after this CU it will be pushed to make a Ranger more of a fully functional combat class so if (or when) there will be a combat Revamp it must be taken into account along with the others?

To clarify, if only traps would be altered to work on all things and also added traps and make them more effective (like the grenades currently are!), then I'd count the Ranger as a combat Profession, not before that.

We are still possitive we can get changes and are very optimistic that once we get testing we can justify some changes as a put me on until our revamp.

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