Ranger Archive
Thread: Wise words...
Gods, I feel like my Mom.
Time to go home and play video games until my eyes fall out.Message Edited by Vorpaks on 06-02-2005 08:49 PM
Thunderheart wrote:
I agree
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
Tell me again what correspondents are for? 
They can be the liaisons between the mobbed masses that throw ideas out and the devs who can implement them. They can sort things out and present concise, complete ideas to the dev team. They, from all that I've seen, are as dedicated to their professions and knowledgeable about all the minutiae of them as any players in the game, even moreso than you devs, who can sometimes seemaloof and detached and possessing an idealized version of the game divorced from the reality of the actual thing.
If you want the perfect compromise, have an ongoing thread in every forum, locked except to corrs and devs, where the corrs and devs responsible for their respective systems can have ongoing and meaningful conversations. The corr can post good ideas and pertinent questions, the devs can provide quick responses. As long as the devs try topost a few times a week, or even better daily, it will never be such a chore for either partyto keep us all abreast of whats going on behind the scenes and whats coming down the pipes for us, and the playerbase will be much more content having our ideas responded to with either a "ill bring it up, and tomorrow i'll let you know what they said" or a "i dont think that will fly and this is why".
Nomore softball questions in dev chats (how are Tiggs' dogs doing, again?), no more "3 questions" but only twice a year, no more bureaucratic secrecy. Whats wrong with doing that?
Message Edited by droid327 on 06-02-2005 06:12 PM
You made your mark as GCW correspodent, its unfortunate your time was cut drastically short but.. **shrug**, keep up the good ideas here on the forums and help the new correspodent out, especially with the GCW revamp rolls around.
Auraboron wrote:
Owen-Lars wrote:
Ive been saying that for a long time and i think how people name posts and how they adress issues have changed considerably recently.
There was a reason why so many posts were getting deleted and this was because although some were not inviting flames in body of the thread, the title itself set the completely wrong tone.
It doesn't explain why he deleted the one titled FEEDBACK: An Elite Tier of PvP, after he made me aware the first one was not proper. *shrug*
Again though, he leaves off the question mark that was there.
The title was FEEDBACK: Remove Jedi from the GCW?
I was asking a question, and offering a solution to the many players on the GCW forum who regularly ask for Jedi to be removed, and to whom I always replied, "Removing Jedi from the GCW is NOT AN OPTION."
12 pages of constructive threads before the flames began.
How many threads get 12 pages of constructive posts?
*shrug*
*walks away*
.
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Sorry, you aren't the first person to use this arguement (I wasn't calling you out, just pointing out that that arguement is invalid). I was still in the know at the time, and I never heard a Dev tell us we would get anything. As Fodder said, we were always told we would get nothing.
Actually that isnt strictly true as Rangers as a whole were not told they would not get anything from the CU right from the start but I understand what you mean!
However, one slight mistake in an arguement does not make the whole argument invalid!
It is quite clear that SOE have absolutely NO intention of fixing ranger at the moment and this is borne out with them retreating back to the communication they used at the games LAUNCH when asking for ideas from rangers when they promised to fix it THEN. If they hadnt stolen some of the best ideas of this forum, said they did it themselves, and gave those skills to other professions, then they wouldnt have to ask for ideas as they could use the ones we have already come up with. Such as Rifleman stealth!
Cananyone point to any communication from the Devs that they havent said before which states that ranger will be addressed?
I retract what I said. It appears I was not in the know (however, if it had never been said, it would indeed been an invalid arguement
).Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 06-02-2005 09:12 PM
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
Due to some issues with the GCW forum, Garva posted this inspired message.
While this does not directly apply to us, it is certainly something to keep in mind when deciding how to approach the devs with issues.
I find what Garva said to be exasperating in the extreme. What he said, was definitely not the whole story of what was happening with thread deletions during the combat revamp beta and release. There were plenty of threads that actually fell into his "Good" critera that were getting deleted, the only commonality were that they were highlighting the flaws of the combat revamp.
What even makes it worse, is that all that came from a man who can't even follow his own rules.
Thunderheart wrote:
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
TH, do we REALLY need to go back to this again?
Okay, it's like this :
Positive out, positive in.
You guys start putting positive communication out, you will recieve positive communication in.
Seriously, we are the customers - it is not up to us to make the "first move". There isn't very much constructive talk on these boards because we have no direction, nothing constructive to talk about since most changes are put into the game on TC before we ever know about them.
And then there are the "lingering issues". Like, come on...Smugglers? Who have been promised a revamp since we went live. First it was "we're working on it". Then it's "post-JTL" because it's "more of a space based profession". And where are we now? Two expansions later and just as broken as we were the day the game went live.
Now, I'm sure you don't think it's "constructive" of me to bring that up. I beg to differ. We can't even get acknowledged, let alone actually get the problem fixed. How are we to take silence and inaction? Should be have to psychoanalyze you guys and make passive agressive judgements?
We are not alone. There are lots of issues like this that have just become part of the culture because there is nothing left to say - you guys put out no communication and no fixing of the issues.
You'd see a lot happier boards if you guys started working on these types of issues. I mean, multi-player vehicles? Neato. They are cool. But was anyone screaming for them like Rangers, or Smugglers, or any number of crafting professions that went kaput with the CU are? Not really.
I used an analogy in a post to you long ago I'd like to remind you of. Because the Devs are in control, they are the Masters. We are the puppy dogs. Happy, productive puppy dogs who are ignored, not fed regularly, and, in some cases, abused will not remain happy puppies. They turn into big, ugly dogs.
So, what do you do at that point? Let's say someone leaves you one of these dogs to care for. When the dog snaps at you because it expects to be hit, or ignored, do you just hit it or ignore it more? That's what is going on here. People want action, they want attention, and they want some straight-forward talk about things. Real, two-way conversations.
What you are basicly telling us is if we sit around and pretend we are happy dogs you will feed us? Well, we've all tried that before by dutifully contributing, but when we see nothing come of it, we have no reason to continue to pretend to be happy dogs. Do you remember how nice the smuggler forums were a year or so ago when GreenMarine came in, posted some extensive docs, and talked to us for five minutes? And then what happened...the attention ended, nothing ever came of it - and no more incentive to be a happy dog. It didn't work.
We are at a very critical time in SWG. I don't need to tell you that - those of you with access to the metrics know much better than we do. With the departure of many veterans and the influx of new players, we can either follow the same "good dog", "bad dog", formula that obviously has not worked for two years, or you can actually open up the lines of communication, get your superiors to not require an act of the Galactic Senate to say "boo" to us.
It's all in your hands, TH - yours and the other Devs/Managers/etc. at SOE/LA. YOU guys hold the key to constructive message boards and positive change. But we can't help you if you don't let us in, and if you don't begin to make good on the promises of essential work that needs to be done to so many professions at their very core. Very few people want to be angry at SWG, we play it for fun. But the reason people get so upset is because in many ways we love SWG so much, but it feels like a lover that's constantly trying our patience, that's constantly threatening to pull the rug out from under us, constantly telling us that the solution to huge issues are just around the corner but never materializes. People are going to be upset until you guys start at the bottom, and fix the game from the ground up - again, Smugglers, Rangers, all non-WS/non-AS crafters (some moreseo than others), the little bugs plaguing everyone (my God it's been two years and I CAN'T NAME A TALKING DROID!), and the core issues with mechanics that seem to get glossed over in favor of fancy new quests that need fixing themselves, or "neat" features like multi-player vehicles that are fun but are peripherial to the major issues we face.
It all begins one step at a time, but you need to build that bridge and post signs along the way. We have two people who's job it is to manage our community, and many Devs that would visit if you guys could somehow provide an enviornment conducive to doing so. But it's got to be followed up by action - POSITIVE action - or we are doomed to repeat the same cycles until the day the servers are unplugged.
That would be a sad, sorry ending. We could have a happy ending - but the ball is really in your court; you, and your co-workers, hold the keys to this. We can either move forward, or you and your co-workers can continue having to delete posts and ban players and spend your days being hall monitors to the forums.
It's all up to you.
AO
Thunderheart wrote:
Vorpaks wrote:
SickSix wrote:
this is most of my reply from that thread:
___________________________________________
What is happening here, seems to be similar to things that have happend in the Ranger Community. We have SOOOOOO many GREAT threads on what can be done to our profession to make the community happy, but where has it gotten us? NOWHERE! only when the entire community is thrown into an uproar (but still a very civilized uproar) did anything get done.
And that is now what we are seeing here in the GCW. The problem Mr. Garva, is with you and the Red Names. You guys never respond to the good threads. Only the bad ones. So what do you get? People going overboard to get attention because that appears to be the only way to get it. Maybe if the Developement team would respond to the players more, then things wouldn't get out of hand????? just a thought.
___________________________________________
If the Dev's and Admin posted more in the GOOD threads, then would that not encourage that post style more?
But your garunteed to get Dev or Admin feedback for doing BAD stuff??? The Dev's and Admin have a major role in why there are so many negative posts........because they get the feedback, good or bad.
I agree with this. I wish the developers would do more trawling for good or interesting ideas. But unfortunately when a dev posts to something people tend to take it as a "promise." If Thunderheart had come on to the stealth thread and said "this is an interesting and well thought out idea Fred!" how much more bitter would we be feeling now that we did not get it?
Dev feedback, positive or negative, is always a double-edged sword. Every single thing they say is likely to be pulled out months and months later and pointed to as a promise, even though we all know that schedules, priorities, and knowledge shift constantly.
So while I desperately want to see more red names chatting it up on the forums, the idea of it happening also makes me nervous for the future bitterness level of the board.
I agree
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
This is to you directly Thunderhart. Could you give us your vision on how you would want the community to help with the interaction? What is needed from our side to help you out? Next, what steps are you yourself gonna take to make this happen?
Either written out in plain text or in some short paragraphs.
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I retract what I said. It appears I was not in the know (however, if it had never been said, it would indeed been an invalid arguement
CuchulainnDarklight wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote: Sorry, you aren't the first person to use this arguement (I wasn't calling you out, just pointing out that that arguement is invalid). I was still in the know at the time, and I never heard a Dev tell us we would get anything. As Fodder said, we were always told we would get nothing.
Actually that isnt strictly true as Rangers as a whole were not told they would not get anything from the CU right from the start but I understand what you mean!
However, one slight mistake in an arguement does not make the whole argument invalid!
It is quite clear that SOE have absolutely NO intention of fixing ranger at the moment and this is borne out with them retreating back to the communication they used at the games LAUNCH when asking for ideas from rangers when they promised to fix it THEN. If they hadnt stolen some of the best ideas of this forum, said they did it themselves, and gave those skills to other professions, then they wouldnt have to ask for ideas as they could use the ones we have already come up with. Such as Rifleman stealth!
Cananyone point to any communication from the Devs that they havent said before which states that ranger will be addressed?
Message Edited by Calculus_Entropy on 06-02-2005 09:12 PM
Well I am glad it has been shown that I do not suffer from any mental infirmities (as yet) and remembered that correctly. However, the fact that it may not have been right did not invalidate the rest of my statement/argument. In real life things are never black and white! By your reckoning if you did an exam and got 1 question wrong then you would score a mark of 0%, or, perhaps someone was to argue that the Nazis werent very nice and made a slight mistake in their argument, would that then mean that the Nazis were actually quite nice and worth inviting round for a cup of tea! Of course not. One slight mistake does not invalidate an argument if all the other facts are there. Plus, it wasnt an argument, it was just a somewhat sarcastic manner of putting my views across. Be careful, someone with a thinner skin than myself may have taken offence at the dismissal of an argument because one fact within several is slightly incorrect.
A Bug Report. You make a Bug Report of what YOU feel are the most pressing issues that need to be addressed. You post it, then in the time between patches you can update the status. Perhaps this is really just communication. Maybe if you post that you will push conversations into the direction you want them instead of leaving everyone "in the dark" about issues.
Thunderheart wrote:
I agree
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
Thunderheart wrote:
I agree
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
Message Edited by DaveG on 06-03-2005 03:52 PM
LMFAO
DaveG wrote:
Thunderheart wrote:
I agree
We do read the boards and try to interact as much as possible, but I'm looking for the best avenue for positive interaction. For that I need the community's help.
The part missing from that is taking on board the suggestions and ideas of the community. The combat revamp showed us that "the powers that be" are just happy to put on us what they want.
Why else did ignore the feedback polls?
Smedley's post was a prime example of this, and for which I'm proud to say I reported him for trolling.
So far,SOE representatives seem to have actively pursued negative interaction. Why do people have such little patience with you all? Because of past experience, we are ignored, and we are censored, and in the case of correspondants, and even your own colleagues, fired.
If you want positive interaction with the community, then the community needs to be taken on as "part of the team", and not just cash cows.
Message Edited by DaveG on 06-03-2005 03:52 PM
/bmocself for getting TH to post here LOL
but, look what TH did! He came in here and said he needs the communities help, WITHOUT TELLING US HOW TO HELP!!! and then just disappeared.
What did he mean? why didn't he clarify? He just passed up a PERFECT oppurtunitie to interact with a player base that feels extremely neglected.
tsk tsk