Ranger Archive

Hey, if I've actually said anything of value (and now I realize I've been on an almost Phenix-worthy post spree the last 2 days), by all means feel free to quote me. I'm sure after I take a break this weekend, I'll have more to chime in with as well.

• "meeting" Hakai on MSN messenger to chat and laugh and come up with the drunken-bothan-clone-guard-dog-for-craftersidea


• knowing I got a laugh out of a possibly delusional and sleep-deprived Ken with one of my comments

so... wheee! I'm off for some much needed R&R this weekend, so I'll be back on the forums and in game maybe sometime Monday...

I'll get to revising everything eventually. I really want to get in game and so something.

Maybe hurt something weaker than me.

Yeah, then I'll feel better.

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JBMat wrote:

I can sum up the entire original post in a short sentence:

Ignore the Rangers

I mean, really - who cares? We are low density, rarely complain, and while we can kick butt and harvest like fiends we get no love from the devs. A few of us have voiced honest opinions and gotten banned for it. We are forced to fight the same fights over the same issues time after time (e.g. - maskscent dropping when entering combat - a fight Brisc won on the Scout board with Greenmarine almost 18 months ago that was resurrected recently) It's not that the Devs don't care - they clearly don't - but they never get bugged too much from us for us to matter. If we were higher density and threatened in l33t speak to leave, they would care. If we go to the Jedi board and whine, they would care; but only if we were Jedi. We are basically non-entities in the grand scheme of things, a source of free gifts to other professions.

I know that I am not selling camo kits for love nor mad credits. The artisans can continue to get eaten by wild durnis and I personally will applaud their deaths. Pass the popcorn please. They want to be all master artisan like, oh well, you get ate by durnis. Until I get free use of rez kits, all the docs can be bantha bait for all I care. Such is game life. If you can't spend your SP wisely, you get ate by chubas.

I am seriously considering not selling anything to anyone.Creds I can get doing missions. Kill enough NPCs and no missions even.

The revamp is after this, and that, then this, then the other... can anyone seriously think it will be this year? I reckon about 2006, maybe June.

Rant, nope. Vent, nope. Honest opinons, yes. Ready for the banning too. Even tho I did not use the "special word" anywhere in here.

JB

btw- Dariane and I know the special word, ask in PMs

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SeanBlader wrote:

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Eavik wrote:

I don't need to run around taking contracts to mindlessly hunt resources for 30 cpu. Without that, I just need SOMETHING TO DO when I'm not out hunting with my guildmates.

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You do understand that Rangers are to organics what Machines are to inorganics don't you? That's how the crafters see us. And on top of that you must realize that the "something to do," which was apply camo kits to ourselves has just been given away for free to everyone.

The problem is the lifestyle, the problem is the complete and utter disregard for the Ranger community as an aggregate. They have turned camo into a stim for everyone, when it used to be a buff. At this point it's a sit in, a protest from us against that disregard.

Today I realized that Rangers don't need more money overall, since we're excluded from the PvP game, we don't need to spend 12 million on a DE-10, we don't need to stack up on tapes or trinkets or 20 million credit armor. What we want is to be useful to others, and crafting in a house or waiting on a factory run isn't being useful, especially when the product that's being produced is LIKELY to be less useful to the crafter than it is to us.

I say wait until your first customer asks for a refund and then we'll see... we'll see who was right, and who has a load of cloned and unhappy crafters looking for him.

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mindtrigger wrote:
Owen,

Let's be realistic for a moment. It sounds like they have a bunch of combat
and a few non-combat professions in line before us. As long as it takes them
to do even a single revamp, what hope can we hold out that we would see
anything even before a year from now? You have to figure there will be another
expansion or maybe two in there, and a myriad of bug fixes. The way they
look at Ranger profession today, it seems the cost-benefit would be just to
let it stay the same way it is. The life span of this game will be what,
another 2 years?

It's possible I am completely wrong here, and that it could be done within
6 months, but going by their record with Ranger it seems unlikely to me.

What say you? I mean you can't even get them to achnowledge that you are
alive.

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It is better to do something and feel something, than to do nothing at all. I will be posting bugs from both the Ranger and Scout profession in the "In Live - Bug Issues" threads until our Revamp. There's nothing against that, now is there?

I will also be bugging everything until our revamp.

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WornTraveler wrote:

This morning I found myself fighting down a very familiar road in Coronet, cutting down swaths of Rebels to get to it before the servers shutdown. It was the last time I will ever have to make my way down that road.

I finally, after five months of hunting, hawking organics, and more than my share of time wasted on piracy in Kessel and Deepspace,managed to achieve my goal- Master Ranger. With two minuts to spare before server shutdown.

Of course I am very happy, but also just a tad bit regretfull that I hadn't come along during more fruitful days of the profession, which hopefully are coming someday. Unfortunately, there was no god-like hunting power I achieved, unlike when mastering rifleman and getting my T21 (again). I may have upped 8 levels, but really, whats that matter? It is justa number, that for some reason, the devs have put more emphasis on than actual skills. I trust, someday, somewhere, there will be some novice bio engineer or some overly zealous novicesmuggler romping around on Dathomir (and yes, I use these professions in this example for a reason), and of course said persons will immediately pick up a rancor stocker. And then, the ranger, having tracked them from a few kilometers away (nice eh?) will show up, land a few traps on ol' crusty and then hit 'em where it hurts, with melee or ranged (after all, he's spent years hunting here, he ought to know how to take downa rancor). And it won't just be some "wow omfg ty" thing, not like other profession get (yeah, know one ever wears there master rifleman tag if you have something SO much cooler like 'Wayfarer' or 'Master Trapper'), but it will be more like "Wow, a ranger." And of course, we will not be uber cause tons of people would flock to the profession and we would have to hate them all and endure it, but we would fill our niche perfectly as a skilled hunter of wild critters (cause after all, after years of testing the Devs know precisely what our role should be and what skills we should be given to fit it). And we wouldn't be the richest (or the poorest, Godbless those poor Image Designers). But that won't matter of course, cause we will be just having a good ol' time in our hightech field bases /slapping krayts walking around (because of course our bases will repel mad critters) and we will be entertaining ourself in this little camp (cause of course the devs will add something REALLY cool to camping). And then, after crafting another mess of fun traps unique to our profession and /gloating at those poor wittle BH and Jedi cry babies blasting away at each other, we will be able to log off and say the next day "Had a great time ranger-ing yesterday." And then of course your wife and/or mother will tell you to get off your lazy rear and do the dishes or something, and real life will continue to be a blast, but rangers will always be able to return to a carefree escape, a game. It is a game, really, and it should be fun. So, in the words of my not-so-wise little brother...

"It's all good."

So, as a ranger, and as a person who definitely has a RL much more important than this game that really serves no larger purpose than entertainment and a brief escape from from a sometimes hectic world, will no longer complain about this game. I will simply tryst that our Corr will keep fightin' the "good fight"and our Devs will eventually hit the mark with ranger (after a few misses of course).

-Worn

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DesktopSaki wrote:

Come, all you Star Wars Rangers, wherever you may be,
I'll tell you of some trouble that happened unto we.
My server is nothing extra, so that I will not tell.
Come, all you Star Wars Rangers, I'm sure Sony wishes well,

When at the age of Master Scout I joined the jolly band
That marched from Jundland wastes down to the Eisley sands
Our leaders they informed us, I supposed they thought it right,
"If you want to keep your skills nerf-free, my friends, you'll have to fight."

We saw the devs a-coming, though we heard them give no yell.
My feelings at that moment, no words can ever tell.
We saw the glitt'ring red names, the patches 'round us hailed.
My heart it sank within me; like camo, my restraint almost failed.

We fought them two long years before the CU came.
The likes of gone and cancelled before we'd never seen.
Dozens of the noblest Rangers that ever roamed the skies
Were gone, cancelled, respeced out, sayin' "I'll give BH a try."

Then I thought of my dear harvest droid, who through a sandstorm to me did beep.
"Those people are to you strangers, you're on the Internet, you creep."
I thought him just a rust bucket, and the best he did not know,
For my heart was set on Rangerdom, and back to Endor I must go.

We heard the fighting from within and the worry from without.
But we held our tempers, we bit our tongues, and we knew we'd stick it out.

Though battered and diminished, we still nobly stood our ground.

When the dust had settled, our numbers they were down.

To the wild we took in flight with our casualties in hand.
We buried them beneath the Yavin moons or in the Riverlands.
We regrouped and packed our camps up, we shook hands and shook our heads.
Then we mounted up and took separate ways, going where our paths each led.

Perhaps you have a brother, perhaps a trusted friend or three .
Likewise you have a guildmate who's heard you quie'ly weep.
And yet the furthest wilderness, you still love to explore and roam,
I'll tell you by your experience--you're a Ranger... Welcome home.

Somewhere, there's a cowboy rolling over in his grave going, "Eustus, what the hail war' that?"

Message Edited by DesktopSaki on 05-27-2005 04:01 AM

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Tsalmaveth wrote:

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the developers need to realise that while the ranger community as a whole is very patient, they need to come forward with atleast 1 of the purposed additions or fixes that have been offered both by their team and by our community.

Given how publishes have gone in the past and the incidents of having to go back to correct current features that have been broken due to new code, I believe that we are looking at longer "sorting out" period for bugs as the major new restructoring takes place. I feel save in saying that we should not expect any major attention to be devote to this profession till possibly publish 15 or possibly even 17. This would put us deep into 2005 before any serious attention is turned our way. I simply do not see the majority of established rangers waiting that long till any improvements are added to our profession. Patients is all well and good, but the simple facts of playing a profession that even the most optimistic of us believes simply an expenditure of skill points that could be better utilized somewhere else, makes any serious delays a death knell for our community.

I would say that most of the rangers falling in the mid to master ranger are holding onto their titles simply for prides sake. There is a certain amount of tragic appeal about the long suffering gamer that stubbornly holds onto the template he invisioned for his character. But that must also be balanced with the reality that what can be accomplished with the profession can just as easily be accomplished with Master Scout. This would also allow you skill points to use in another line that has applicable ingame use now.

I too plan on holding onto my Master Ranger title. I ground it out back in the day when it was more of a chore. I felt great pride in Mastering it when everyone else avoided it like the plague. I held on to it during the constant heckling and peer pressure applied by my gaming comrades when they tried to tell me that I would enjoy the game more in another profession and find more usefullyness for myself as an added benefit. It has come down to just being plan stubborn about holding on to it. But I find even my resolve cracking when i think of the further delays and projected time tables till we see improvement.

I fear that by the time revamp comes around the ranks of the rangers will be thinned to the point of obscurity, and that even with new options and content few will want to come back to a profession that has been shown such lack of concideration. As it stands now, we are a mildly amusing footnote on the path of the hologrinder and a source of bitter disappointment and mounting frustration for the truely devoted. 15 a month seems a steep price to prove your resolve and your ability to find usefulness in an otherwise useless class.

This is why I say that the Devs must put forth even the smallest of changes to our profession. Even the most basic of improvements would be justification enough in the eyes of the hardened community to persist and not relenquish their titles. I think we suffer not from an a unpractical believe that we should be completely revamped, but from the fact no specific attention has been directed our way in some time. Harvesting droids where a good step in showing that what we and scouts provide to the community is important. What is depressing about the droids that this was not directed specifically at addressing the concerns of our profession. This was simply an added bonus derived from the time and effort turned towards the DE's. I think they saw that Droid Engineers where in danger of becoming an extinct class do to their lack of profession specific content and usefullness. They must now turn that same critical eye to a profession that has been holding at extinction level for longer than even the longer suffering DE's.

We have much to add to the community. Given the personalities of those in our community, we offer much to SWG in the way of roleplaying, ideas ,commitment and support. The promising allure of jedi not withstanding, most of the gaming community are after a quick thrill in the form of solo hunting, looting and outright greed in relation to the current economy. These thrill seeking power gamers may constitute the majority of the populations,but they are also the first to jump ship when a new game launches that promises even more thrills and areas in which to dominate. We here in this community have shown our perseverance and dedication to the ideal of this class, and I feel that for the continuous support of 15 a month coupled with the self-restraint with which most of us look toward the developers, we have earned the right to have even the most simplistic of bones thrown our way as a measure of good faith. A good start would be a simple increase in the amount of harvest. Something to better establish the fact that Rangers are and elite offshoot of the scout, not simply a more expensive version of said. Or, the actual implimentation of the much talked about tracking skill. This was purposed by the developers early into the game. Unless this was simply theoritical talk on their part, some actual coding must have been done on this skill. I myself would like to see some usefullness returned to the camps. With the current state of buffing and the ability of everyone to pull out all their little friends (pets,droids,vehicles) without recource to using a camp, camping has been become an obsolete skill set.

I realise that much of what I have said here is simply a rehashing of previous discussions on this board, but without the direct support of the developers in giving us valid time tables and thoughts regarding what can and cannot be implimented, we have no recourse but to keep swimming in the same circles going over the same worn out ground, in the hopes that someone in authority will see that a disturbing trend is taking place in the types of post that are being placed on this forum.

The clock is ticking for the rangers as a viable profession. Without some form of support or encouragement from those directly responsible for the future of this class, I truely do feel that most of the faces you see in this forum will eitherbegin wearing someone elses profession tag or simply move on to greener pastures in the gaming world. This will not only be a loss of revenue for SWG but also be a great loss to this community.

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RazorBlade79 wrote:
@tiggs

Wow, I don't know how often I heard something like you will be positivly surprised from all the PR guys (aka the red names who are allowed to post.)

I will be surprised if your presence will change anything like communication. Since TH appearence back in the day it DIDN'T and he had your job. We got a little bit more generic answers, like I'll tell the real devs, we look into it, it will be fixed in the combat balance. But zero information which everyone would have needed. Most information has always been brought to everyone by other parties, like online shops, other players, fan sites, etc. The devs themselves SEEM to know about everything last (which their non-knowledge about lots of stuff time and again proved) or really dont care about sharing stuff.

The worst aspect of the 'better communication' which TH brought to the board was the half information part. It's ok if they don't tell us every little detail (and with them I mean you tiggs), but talking in PR language and HYPING something to heaven always let to an underwhelmed SWG population. Thus the nick names like the IMPERIAL LETDOWN. People expected oppression and got a meaningless minigame which is interessting exactly ONCE. Then never again. Sorry to be that cynic but I don't think people are pointing out this stuff enough to you.

Note that most of your player base in the forums isn't stupid, if you put together a nice commercial most will notice it's nature, experience tells us not to expect everything which is promised.

What we really need are facts, quick answers, daily communication, no pr BS. If you don't know it, FFS please say it. Don't tell any lies, we will remember that. Everyone will understand that your job isn't easy. But at least let us know that you are around, give some feedback, not only once every day or two posting, 'Yeah I'm lurking, surprise surprise.' It get old after a while. And random posts don't prove any knowledge about what's going on.



This post is not meant as an attack or something, I don't know anything about you, except that you like smiley eating dragons and purple. This is more like a try to give you a little hint what to avoid around here and what not.

I don't say TH made a bad job overall, I can imagine there was lots of stuff going on behind the curtain. But everything assumes he is the forum guy and so when he didn't post anything usefull in weeks it looked more like the whole dev team didn't care anymore anyway, making all the discussion in the forums pretty pointless.

Most of us here want to make this game better, especially with the combat and GCW revamps. Hope this all made sense, I am tired. Anyway welcome to the forums.

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Holocron wrote:

Here's the dev reply on this one. I want to emphasize that some of these changes are large enough that they will take a while.

1. We aren't unique.

"Rangers have very little that differentiates them from scouts. Once Master Scout is reached, Ranger is essentially more of the exact same thing."

In my mind this issue is of critical importance and largely trumps the rest of the Correspondent list. The other 4 issues are mainly issues with inhereted scout ability bugs.

The focus of this post will be on how we are making Ranger different from scout. Ideologically, the ranger is still a "super scout." The key is implementing new and unique ways to go about that kind of gameplay.

Each skill tree is being adjusted to be more interesting and unique.

Wayfaring

Scent mask is now the realm of scouts. Rangers will now get a similar ability called /conceal. A Ranger's conceal ability works very much like scentmask, except for three differences. First, it is a lot more potent: it lasts longer (up to 25 minutes for a Master Ranger) and it rarely breaks. Second, it can be applied to other players. You can now conceal your friends to give them a chance to sneak past enemies as well. The success of the conceal depends on the skill of the Ranger who applied it. Third, it requires a component to apply: a camouflage kit. Camouflage kits are crafted by the Ranger and are planet specific. For example, a Desert Camouflage Kit will allow a Ranger to conceal themselves on Tatooine. Each camouflage kit is assembled from resources gathered on the planet it affects. Camo kits for advanced planets like Endor may be fairly difficult to assemble.

The Ranger will earn experience for successful sneak checks by players he conceals.

It is also possible that the rescue command will be beefed up and moved to the Wayfaring tree (it doesn't really fit in trapping). Bugs with rescue are being fixed as well.

Frontiering

The most important change to Frontiering will be the introduction of special camps. These camps will not operate like a normal rest camp. The Ranger's "Hunting Blind" will give him special bonuses to attracting and hunting creatures as long as he stays within it. Other special camps with unique functionality are being designed.

Bugs with camps repelling creatures will be fixed...see the scout correspondent response post for information on camp xp related changes and fixes.

Field Bioscience --> Tracking

The Field Bioscience skill tree will be renamed Tracking. All of the current functionality will remain with two major additions.

/scanarea - At Novice Ranger, the Ranger will recieve the /scanarea command. Players familiar with EQ's tracking system will understand how this works. You can search the area for animals, people, or players. As you climb the tracking tree, more options and information (like direction and distance) will appear. This should make rangers effective at completing hunting missions or tracking down a specific target.

/track - Higher up the Tracking tree, the Ranger will earn the /track command. The /track command will let the Ranger specify a specific creature he wants to find. Hunting for a Veermok? If you are in a region where Veermok live, you can /track for one. Tracking a creature will lead the player on a small mission to find a creature in the area (or in the case of a critical success or failure...an unexpected surprise). Whereas scanarea checks for already existing mobs in the area, /track can be used even if a Veermok lair (or whatever creature you want to find) isn't nearby.

Advanced Trapping

Rangers are getting a whole new trapping system. Instead of throwing their traps at a target like Scouts, Rangers will deploy their traps on the ground. Each trap will have a different kind of effect. Here are some examples:

Heavy Claw Trap - In order to use this trap, you'll need to draw a creature across it. When the creature draws near enough, the heavy claw trap snaps shut, rooting the creature. The stronger the creature, the more likely it will eventually work itself free.

Lure - A lure can be filled with meat or greens to attract nearby creatures. A creature who detects a lure might break off from its packmates to inspect it.

Tripwire - The tripwire trap can be laid against NPCs as well as creatures. A target who runs across the tripwire will be knocked on his back for a short time.

These unique traps should increase the Ranger's effectiveness soloing and in groups.

When Do We Get It

I hope to have the implementation of these new features wrapped up soon, but since the Ranger is getting a lot of new functionality to make up for a weak initial skill set, it may take a bit longer to get these features to you. The new traps and wayfaring changes are very close to being ready to go, with the tracking and camps to follow some time after.

Most of the other concerns in the Ranger correspondent report are covered in the Scout response, so go check that out. The key thing for Rangers is the new functionality that should make them a more unique and interesting profession.

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Rancorrider4 wrote:

Someone had the Ranger Correspondent feedback thread locked. For those of you fairly new to Ranger, this was a statement from the Creative Director of Star Wars Galaxies at the time, indicating many new and unique changes for us. I don't know who requested this thread be locked, or who felt it need to be locked, as there was nothing inflammatory or trollish about this thread. Perhaps the powers that be don't like to see what they promised to this profession nearly TWO YEARS ago, and the fact that they still haven't so much as made an attempt to work with us on these ideas at any level.

I cut and copied the original post from Holocron and will be pasting it here. Let's open some new commentary on this and see if we can bring this to the attention of the current powers that be. Let's attempt to keep it flame resistant, so they don't have a reason to lock it, and continue to ignore us. Thanks gang.

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Holocron said:

"Here's the dev reply on this one. I want to emphasize that some of these changes are large enough that they will take a while.

1. We aren't unique.

"Rangers have very little that differentiates them from scouts. Once Master Scout is reached, Ranger is essentially more of the exact same thing."

In my mind this issue is of critical importance and largely trumps the rest of the Correspondent list. The other 4 issues are mainly issues with inhereted scout ability bugs.

The focus of this post will be on how we are making Ranger different from scout. Ideologically, the ranger is still a "super scout." The key is implementing new and unique ways to go about that kind of gameplay.

Each skill tree is being adjusted to be more interesting and unique.

Wayfaring

Scent mask is now the realm of scouts. Rangers will now get a similar ability called /conceal. A Ranger's conceal ability works very much like scentmask, except for three differences. First, it is a lot more potent: it lasts longer (up to 25 minutes for a Master Ranger) and it rarely breaks. Second, it can be applied to other players. You can now conceal your friends to give them a chance to sneak past enemies as well. The success of the conceal depends on the skill of the Ranger who applied it. Third, it requires a component to apply: a camouflage kit. Camouflage kits are crafted by the Ranger and are planet specific. For example, a Desert Camouflage Kit will allow a Ranger to conceal themselves on Tatooine. Each camouflage kit is assembled from resources gathered on the planet it affects. Camo kits for advanced planets like Endor may be fairly difficult to assemble.

The Ranger will earn experience for successful sneak checks by players he conceals.

It is also possible that the rescue command will be beefed up and moved to the Wayfaring tree (it doesn't really fit in trapping). Bugs with rescue are being fixed as well.

Frontiering

The most important change to Frontiering will be the introduction of special camps. These camps will not operate like a normal rest camp. The Ranger's "Hunting Blind" will give him special bonuses to attracting and hunting creatures as long as he stays within it. Other special camps with unique functionality are being designed.

Bugs with camps repelling creatures will be fixed...see the scout correspondent response post for information on camp xp related changes and fixes.

Field Bioscience --> Tracking

The Field Bioscience skill tree will be renamed Tracking. All of the current functionality will remain with two major additions.

/scanarea - At Novice Ranger, the Ranger will recieve the /scanarea command. Players familiar with EQ's tracking system will understand how this works. You can search the area for animals, people, or players. As you climb the tracking tree, more options and information (like direction and distance) will appear. This should make rangers effective at completing hunting missions or tracking down a specific target.

/track - Higher up the Tracking tree, the Ranger will earn the /track command. The /track command will let the Ranger specify a specific creature he wants to find. Hunting for a Veermok? If you are in a region where Veermok live, you can /track for one. Tracking a creature will lead the player on a small mission to find a creature in the area (or in the case of a critical success or failure...an unexpected surprise). Whereas scanarea checks for already existing mobs in the area, /track can be used even if a Veermok lair (or whatever creature you want to find) isn't nearby.

Advanced Trapping

Rangers are getting a whole new trapping system. Instead of throwing their traps at a target like Scouts, Rangers will deploy their traps on the ground. Each trap will have a different kind of effect. Here are some examples:

Heavy Claw Trap - In order to use this trap, you'll need to draw a creature across it. When the creature draws near enough, the heavy claw trap snaps shut, rooting the creature. The stronger the creature, the more likely it will eventually work itself free.

Lure - A lure can be filled with meat or greens to attract nearby creatures. A creature who detects a lure might break off from its packmates to inspect it.

Tripwire - The tripwire trap can be laid against NPCs as well as creatures. A target who runs across the tripwire will be knocked on his back for a short time.

These unique traps should increase the Ranger's effectiveness soloing and in groups.

When Do We Get It

I hope to have the implementation of these new features wrapped up soon, but since the Ranger is getting a lot of new functionality to make up for a weak initial skill set, it may take a bit longer to get these features to you. The new traps and wayfaring changes are very close to being ready to go, with the tracking and camps to follow some time after.

Most of the other concerns in the Ranger correspondent report are covered in the Scout response, so go check that out. The key thing for Rangers is the new functionality that should make them a more unique and interesting profession."

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The changes that I'm seeing are begining to appall me. I've been without the internet again as my laptop is acting up again (luckily new parts for my desktop should arrive this week so I should be back on that fairly soon).

The fact is that yet again, our skills are being shifted from "unique" to "commonplace" and that is the main problem for me. Before the CURB and the new stuff that I'm seeing here, we were stuck with broken skills that had potential to be great skills. We had mez attacks that nobody else did, we had tracking, and we had a unique camoflauge skill that worked against NPC's. The problem was that those skills didn't go far enough. We wanted camoflauge to work better, we wanted more mezzes that worked on all targets and we wanted a more robust tracking system.

The problem is that the developers liked those ideas...just not for our profession. They took the basic layout we had for our profession and declared that other professions, not ours, needed these skills. And to be honest, the game is better with these skills in them. A more robust mezzing system that allows for some differentiation between professions is GREAT. Having actual stealth in the game is GREAT. The problem is that they added these things in with no regard for the community that came up with them or with any regard for anything that wasn't a combat profession. Now, once again our community is feeling the brunt of the nerf bat because of mistakes in the development teams philosophy.

I don't blame the devs personally. I was involved with the CURB alpha team and I know that they were rushed to get the Combat Upgrade out with the expansion. But the fact is that when you make a mistake, you must endeavor to correct that mistake. Mistakes were made when they didn't have a true Ranger class when the game launched. Again, this was due, in my opinion, to LucasArts pushing SOE to release too quickly. But they never corrected that mistake and have instead exasperated that mistake again and again by simply pushing us aside and using what little uniqueness we had to bolster a shoddy system. Their original combat system was flawed so they took the mez effects which were our domain and spread them around. Now they're taking our ability to hide from NPCs and spreading it around to fix a huge hole in their new combat system.

I suppose I should feel somewhat intruiged, because I guess I never realized how unique our skills were until they started making them commonplace. Perhaps I should feel honored as a Ranger because the skills that were our bread and butter are now the glue holding together the rickety ship that is Star Wars: Galaxies. Without mezzing skills and the ability for crafters to survive (slightly) longer, the game would be much worse. But the fact is that they still haven't corrected any of their mistakes. They're simply doing patchwork repairs at our expense and the fact is thatthey probably don't have any original ideas for what Rangers should do. Our revamp is being pushed back whille our skillset is stripped for the sake of other classes which need work.

Maybe I should feel honored, but instead I feel like I'm being told that my arm has to be amputated so a rich guy can have a third arm.

But I'm still here for you Owen. Tell me what you'd like me to do.

The changes that I'm seeing are begining to appall me. I've been without the internet again as my laptop is acting up again (luckily new parts for my desktop should arrive this week so I should be back on that fairly soon).

The fact is that yet again, our skills are being shifted from "unique" to "commonplace" and that is the main problem for me. Before the CURB and the new stuff that I'm seeing here, we were stuck with broken skills that had potential to be great skills. We had mez attacks that nobody else did, we had tracking, and we had a unique camoflauge skill that worked against NPC's. The problem was that those skills didn't go far enough. We wanted camoflauge to work better, we wanted more mezzes that worked on all targets and we wanted a more robust tracking system.

The problem is that the developers liked those ideas...just not for our profession. They took the basic layout we had for our profession and declared that other professions, not ours, needed these skills. And to be honest, the game is better with these skills in them. A more robust mezzing system that allows for some differentiation between professions is GREAT. Having actual stealth in the game is GREAT. The problem is that they added these things in with no regard for the community that came up with them or with any regard for anything that wasn't a combat profession. Now, once again our community is feeling the brunt of the nerf bat because of mistakes in the development teams philosophy.

I don't blame the devs personally. I was involved with the CURB alpha team and I know that they were rushed to get the Combat Upgrade out with the expansion. But the fact is that when you make a mistake, you must endeavor to correct that mistake. Mistakes were made when they didn't have a true Ranger class when the game launched. Again, this was due, in my opinion, to LucasArts pushing SOE to release too quickly. But they never corrected that mistake and have instead exasperated that mistake again and again by simply pushing us aside and using what little uniqueness we had to bolster a shoddy system. Their original combat system was flawed so they took the mez effects which were our domain and spread them around. Now they're taking our ability to hide from NPCs and spreading it around to fix a huge hole in their new combat system.

I suppose I should feel somewhat intruiged, because I guess I never realized how unique our skills were until they started making them commonplace. Perhaps I should feel honored as a Ranger because the skills that were our bread and butter are now the glue holding together the rickety ship that is Star Wars: Galaxies. Without mezzing skills and the ability for crafters to survive (slightly) longer, the game would be much worse. But the fact is that they still haven't corrected any of their mistakes. They're simply doing patchwork repairs at our expense and the fact is thatthey probably don't have any original ideas for what Rangers should do. Our revamp is being pushed back whille our skillset is stripped for the sake of other classes which need work.

Maybe I should feel honored, but instead I feel like I'm being told that my arm has to be amputated so a rich guy can have a third arm.

But I'm still here for you Owen. Tell me what you'd like me to do.

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Oculus wrote:
No offence Ackehece, but you have no clue about the ranger profession.

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Ackehece wrote:

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Owen-Lars wrote:

Creature Handlers and Docs? Erm no. Since when couldnt CHs and Docs engage in pvp and pvnpc or pvcreature? They can engage in every combat arena and there is only ranger that cannot.

Ranger has never been focused as hunters. Tell me where in our tree it says we are hunters?

We have better harvesting mods and that means nothing, we can track npcs/pcs/creatures so that doesnt count, we can hide from npcs/creatures (if it ever works), we can trap creatures which is probly the most hunter like ability we have and that is it. Now if you said survivalist or wilderness expert then fair enough point taken but we are not hunters, thats just a role we are pigeon holed into because 90% of our skills do not work.

The thing is - have you ever had or even heard from a dev since the game was prebeta that rangers were anything other then big game hunters? No? nor have I. It was the design of the profession to allow for hunting and that the Rangers would be the best hunters around. The camps of course I grant you are broken but your camo works, your tracking works and your traps while not working are designed to only work on creatures. You gain skills to explore and to hunt for bio easier and that is about it... Where do you see pc/npc combat in that?

Actually yes, ages ago, when Holocron was still around they acknowledged that Ranger wasn't unique and different enough from Scout and that was the problem with the profession, which they promised to change. /conceal has always worked on creatures and NPCs alike, even the skill description in-game states so. The was once were there Devs tried to convince us that it was never intended but that was pure BS because they didn't want to fix it. They've left it "broken" ever since.

Im not saying this is good for SLs and they should take it, infact i could understand why they wouldnt want to go for it but there is no denying some areas are similar. Rangers like to lead a group into the wild, SLs like to lead a group in the battle, Rangers like to enhance the group in combat, SLs like to enhance the group in combat. Then there are differences like SLs like to lead through tactics and strategy and the ranger likes to lead through wilderness knowledge and survival techniques.

When have rangers ever enhanced group combat? That is pretty much purely a SL skill. SL's like to lead everywhere including in the wild and have no real need of ranger skills to lead in the wild. SLs of course lead through tactics and strategy and that is pretty much the hard bitten combat vet that SL's want to be.

When? How about since the game launched? You wrote you've played since the beginning. Remember when camps where used when hunting? Back when grouping was still going on under the "old" combat system? Sure you do. Camps were then nerfed but they enhanced group combat (reducing downtime) back then. Before the Devs decided to give the crowd control effects from our traps to every profession we were actually the top mezzing and de-buff profession, thing was, the game was so broken that you could kill everything solo in no time so there was no need for it. Only a very naive person would insist on stating that a profession with AoE blind, stun, dizzy and rooting abilities ( and of course our defense de-buff traps ) but no combat skills is not supposed to engage and enhance group combat. We've just always been limited to creatures and most of the high-end game is NPC. We can however track, PCs, NPCs and creatures alike. SL give direct commands to the group, that why it's called Leader but Rangers, in theory, are just as important for a group. And it's the theory part we are complaining about, because we've never received a balance pass to put our abilities on par with the rest of the professions, thus they go un-used and others, like you, don't see them .

There are many similar ideals and i know Irott understood these relationships as we have talked about them a good few times. It doesnt mean that we should merge or that a merge is good for either professions but if it were to happen there are various parts of each profession that would merge very well.

Completely different design and background to the professions. Really they would not work together no matter the surface similarities that some people bring up. CH and Ranger are much closer related then SL and ranger by a long shot.

Message Edited by Owen-Lars on 06-08-200505:49 AM

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AragornSoS wrote:

Maximus_Bane -

I think the point you're missing is that yes, Rangers have always had to "craft" things - these are all self-use items that are completely geared towards survival, and largely to survival of the individual. HOWEVER... Rangers have never been a "Crafter class" whose whole point is to craft items for OTHERS to use. Those classes have their basis in Artisan. Ranger and Scout craft SELF USE items (camps, traps, camo kits) that are geared enterly towards the wilderness survival / personal concealment / "uber hunter" concept that the Ranger profession is supposed to represent.

What you are currently talking about is most CERTAINLY a skill. Wayfaring one grants 3 schematics (camo kits for the noob planets) AND the /conceal skill. Now that everyone in the game can use a camo kit off the button bar, and no longer HAS to invest the 88 points required to earn the /conceal skill... yes, we have most certainly lost a unique Ranger skill. One of the few remaining skills that were unique to the profession, and one that held great potential for the revamp.

I'd also argue the point that "any idiot" can set up a tent or apply camo, having built a 1,200 person tent city in the deserts of Jordan IRL in less than 2 weeks. And sure, anyone can smear on goop from a camo stick, but someone with training and practice and skill is going to do a WHOLE lot better job. I mean, my 3 year old daughter can "put on" her mom's makeup too, and I guess that works, if your name is Bozo.

If you actually knew anything about what you were posting about regarding asking for skills, you'd realize that the Ranger community has about TWO YEARS worth of proposals and ideas that are VERY well developed and fleshed out in incredible detail. We've been laying the foundation for the Ranger revamp for quite some time, yet we still don't actually know when (or even if) that revamp is actually going to happen. In THAT regard, we're probably worse off than our Smuggler bretheren, who at least have a couple of "In Concept" posts that talk about their supposed revamp. (Don't get me wrong tho, they along with SL are also in need of a revamp!). This particular change is NOT something Rangers asked for or wanted, nor will it really do anything to solve the crafter issue that is REALLY tied to the CL system and damange multipliers based on CL differences. If you think getting an occasional 1-hit incap is bad, try wearing camo WITHOUT the +100 mods from Master Ranger. If it breaks on ME all the time, and I draw instant agro when it breaks... just think what'll happen to all those poor CL1 crafters who try and use this and find it breaking all the time and drawing even MORE agro to them. This was not the solution, that's what Rangers have been trying to get through to people since this was announced several days ago, but we've not even got acknowledgement of any of the issues we've raised on our own or through our Corr.

As far as others doing things better than Rangers... that's just it, they already do. The mouseover info on radar pretty much makes areatrack useless if you consider all the bugs with areatrack and changes introduced with the CU. People with multiple combat professions who only dabble in scout can pull in more harvest over time than a Master Ranger can (especially if they group and use hash or a droid). Camping is largely useless since the change that allowed anyone to pull bikes or pets anywhere or heal just with a droid. TN mods in ranger count strictly towards crawl speed, so anyone with some Scout plus some bio clothes can run as fast as a Ranger can (which IMHO is wrong). As for anything else, well... there ISN'T anything else in Ranger to speak of. There are no specials, there are no weapon certs, the two ranger traps have been useless since long before the CU hit, most of the scout traps are currently buggy and not working correctly (or not providing any tangible benefit). Other professions have "top 10" lists that point to single items that might be bugged, or a skill that isn't working quite as intended, or some enhancement they'd like. Ranger has entire trees (that's multiple, not one, but several) that are almost 100% worthless for anything other than role-play or to the most die-hard of folks who REALLY want to be a MASTER Ranger. Most of the Ranger skills were already buggy and some are completely broken due to changes with the CU.

And to those who say "Stop crying, take one for the team, at least you have something else to sell other than tracking and organics"... we don't NEED something to sell, and after watching skill after skill get farmed out to other professions or patched into obsolescence, I think we've taken quite enough "for the team". We're not a crafter class, we're not merchants. I (and most Rangers) do quite well simply taking an occassional hunting or tracking contract. I have no need for another source of income, and certainly not one that's currently as broken and misaligned to what it's intended to be fixing as camo kits are going to be. You're entitled to your opinions, as I am entitled to mine. I think it's a fair statement tho, that the majority of the Ranger community is (and remains) against this change, and all that it represents. I very much hope we do hear from the devs, or TH or Tiggs or SOMEONE, and are able to get some of the many questions we have answered.

*edited for spelling*

Message Edited by AragornSoS on 05-26-2005 04:57 PM

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Rancorrider4 wrote:

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Eavik wrote:

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Maximus_Bane wrote:

Fine your not crafters. Next patch they can move all your camps and camo kits to the artisan trees so you won't be burdened with crafting them. You'll just be responsible for collecting the materials for them. That make you feel better? Didn't think so.

Try to look outside the box of your proffesion and request new skills be added. What we're currently talking about is a tool not a skill. Making the kits is a skill. The kit itself is not. Currently anyone can wear them just like anyone could be buffed, you just have to put them on for them.

Do you want to put every kit on your group or guild or would you rather hand them out and say use em when you need to. Do you want to be like docs were, sitting around in the starports applying camo kits? The things arn't that useful to begin with. You are complainig over the wrong thing. How about asking for your Camps to actually have some real bennefits. Increased defenses , mission terminals, faster regeneration to health pool, faster wound heals. How about skills that actually relate to survival.

Any idiot can set up a tent or smear camo on there face in the real world but few people can actually survive in the wild. I think that ranger needs skills that make them important, but sorry a little camo kit aint it.

Currently the game is trending towards sharing of weapons so that as a rifleman i cna carry carbines and pistols. That is equipment, not skills. I don't get carbine specials miracously when i'm given a carbine to use. Just like your proffesion people are give the ability to use some of your equipment. That dosn't mean they can area track, harvest better than they could, cross terrain better or lay down one of the big camps. Those are skills they're not giving them to people.

If you feel so stringly about it, don't make the camo kits for people, but don't pick up a rifle or a carbine if your not either of those proffesion. That would make you a hypocrite. Or is that ok because it only affects the uniqueness of someone elses proffesion?

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Very well said! Couldn't agree more.

As a Ranger, I seem to be in the minority, but I have absolutely no problem with this change to camouflage. I'm really struggling to understand why some people do have a problem with it.

I certainly don't understand the whole "I'm a ranger, not a crafter!" argument. We've always had to craft the camo kits. Why did this suddenly become an issue now? In fact 3 out of our 4 skill trees require crafting - camps, traps and camo kits. If you are a ranger, then yes - you absolutely are a crafter to some extent.

Some people seem to think they are being forced into some sort of merchant role having to sell and distribute camo kits. Again, I don't see the problem here either. If you don't want to be a merchant and sell your supplies, don't. What exactly have you lost? Everybody has always been able to wear camo - now you don't have to be there to apply it for them. That is a good thing!

This change hasn't hurt us at all - if anything, it has benefited us. As a Ranger, I've never bothered with camouflage kits. It was always too much of a pain to have to go track down very specific resources to craft camo kits for each planet, when I could just use mask scent instead with just as much - if not more success than the camo kits gave me. Now that camo kits actually have some kind of purpose for somebody in the game, I have a reason to actually make them. I've been running around each planet hunting these resources and having a blast with it. First time in two years that I've gotten any use out of that skill tree. How can I possibly complain?

While I still don't undertstand what the uproar is all about - consider this as a solution. Swap the Mask Scent skill with the Conceal skill. Meaning - give Scouts the ability to make and distribute the camo kits. Once you hit Ranger, you get the Mask Scent ability and no longer need to lug around crates of camouflage or hunt for those resources. You could move Mask Scent to Wayfaring 1 with a +50 mask scent modifier, and add +10 for each extra wayfaring box, and an extra +20 at Master Ranger. Having +100 at Master Ranger would mean Mask Scent would never break. That gives a benefit for going Master, rather than just dabbling - and it gives Rangers a unique skill that doesn't require crafting or resources. If Rangers are interested in making and selling the camo kits, they still could since the Scout skills are a pre-req for Ranger.

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As a Ranger, I seem to be in the minority

You can say that again. Stop acting like you are speaking on behalf of the community. You are one of only two Ranger's I have seen that agree with this. Two.

I certainly don't understand the whole "I'm a ranger, not a crafter!" argument.

Yes we can clearly see that you don't get it. We have never stated that we don't craft certain items, and you and you're pal that you quoted are totally missing the point. There is NO other Elite profession still requiring mastery of a novice profession. We have to invest 140 skill points to Master Ranger, and now along comes the Dev team and say "Hey! Despite having to invest ZERO skill points in Ranger, you can use one of the few unique skills left in the Ranger profession".

Try to look outside the box of your proffesion and request new skills be added. What we're currently talking about is a tool not a skill. Making the kits is a skill. The kit itself is not. Currently anyone can wear them just like anyone could be buffed, you just have to put them on for them.
We don't need to look outside the box of this profession. We suggested EONS ago (and were ignored by the Devs) that our traps be allowed to root players. It would have given us more participation in combat and the GCW. We suggested EONS ago that our camo kits allow us to "take cover" and completely remove us from the Radar. This would have given us the ability to be advanced Recon units and again have more to do in the game. The Dev reply was that "Stealth will NEVER be in the game as it is TOO UNBALANCING". Now we have Jedi running around in Force Cloak, exploiting it by attacking while using it, and Rifleman now have this ability. With your ridiculous reasoning then, we Rangers, should be able to buff players (only to a lesser extent) and rez players (maybe they'll be groggy for 5 minutes instead of 60 seconds) as well as slice weapons. After all it's just tools not skill right?

How about you people step and see that taking skills from an Elite profession and giving them to anyone without any skill point investment is a BAD IDEA. The Dev team is sacrificing an Entire profession to appease people that aren't happy with the CL Damage modifier that was introduced with the CU. How about they fix that and stop destroying Rangers.

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AragornSoS wrote:

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Eavik wrote:

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Rancorrider4 wrote:

Now players who have ZERO skill points invested in Ranger can use them. You don't even have to have MASTER SCOUT, which we STILL do, to use them.

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This is nothing new. Everybody has always been able to wear camo kits, regardless of where their skill points were invested. The only difference is that we no longer have to apply the camo kits. Unless you had some odd business where you stood around cities spamming to apply camo to random people for credits, this change has no detrimental effect on you whatsoever. The change only benefits us Rangers, by giving us a new means to use one of our skills and make a few credits, if you are interested. If you're not interested - you've lost absolutely nothing.

Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of problems with the Ranger profession. Other than Smuggler, there is no other profession in the game that needs as much attention from the Devs as Ranger does. We need camps that actually serve a purpose. We need more than 1 trap that works. We need a set of Ranger combat specials, defense mods, and maybe some weapons certified only for Rangers like every other profession got. We need the ability to be able to "cloak" ourselves like riflemen and jedi can.

We don't need some stupid ability to run around applying camouflage to people. We've had that skill, and nobody used it or cared about up until this week. Now everybody acts like this was our most prized skill.

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Eavik, that's the point. We had to invest 88 points just to be able to craft the first 3 of many kits, and earn the /conceal skill. 140 points if you wanted to craft the Dath kit and have the full set of + camo mods at Master Ranger. I don't see how you can NOT see that letting others APPLY the kits now without any SP investment is most assuredly giving away a skill that used to be the sole domain of the Ranger. Now every person in the game can effectively use the /conceal command without having to invest those 88 skill points. THAT is what we've lost. That, and the potential to build off the /conceal skill and camo kits when we eventually DO get a revamp. Do you really think that camo will allow for cloaking or radar invisibility while moving or anything like that, if every person in the game can use it off a toolbar? Do you really think we have a better chance of getting camo fixed and improved now that it's been farmed out to the masses?

Nobody is disagreeing with you that many, many things in Ranger need to be fixed. Nobody argued that camo wasn't broken, in fact that's been highlighted by many of us as a "be careful what you ask for, you might just get it" since it's currently largely broken, even for Master Rangers with great camo mods, it breaks - a lot. It's NOT going to solve the "CL1 crafter getting 1-hit incap" issue, if anything it's likely to make it worse for them when the camo continually breaks AND they are forced into combat AND can't reapply it for 20 or 30 seconds AND draw agro from most whatever is around them when it DOES break.

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mindtrigger wrote:

A lot of what you guys are hearing from us Rangers about the camo kit is
frustration about the whole profession. The camo may seem trivial to other
people, but Rangers are trying to hold on to what little we have remaining.
As has been stated by many Rangers in this thread today, it has been all
TAKE and ABSOLUTE ZERO GIVE from SOE with our profession.

Really, no one here is kidding. 90%+ of the Ranger tree is broken, or
has been rendered impotent due to SOE's new policy of sharing attributes
between all the professions now. We were considered "outside the scope"
of the CURB, so we didn't get any new specials or cool abilities. We were
simply ignored. I have no idea how the brainiacs at SOE determined that
Rangers, who's main job is hunting and survival, were not a combat
class, yet CH is. Obviously our skills, if working correctly, easily cross
over for combat. You have to assume, due to lack of any other explanation,
that they simply chose to ignore Ranger class. Had they taken 5 minutes
to think about it, they would have seen how we fit into combat, or how we
COULD HAVE fit into combat with a couple fixes and tweaks.

To be perfectly honest, at this point I wish SOE would just kill the class
off, or fix it. I mean if they really have no intention of spending the time on
it, why even keep it going? A simple email to our correspondant would
be an INCREDIBLE BREAKTHROUGH at this point. How sad is that?

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SickSix wrote:

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Maximus_Bane wrote:

Line one of your retort was an insult that is as far off base as it gets.
Line two also was incorrect. you wanted to prove a point but you might want to pick the right metaphor.
Line three another insult, another incorrect one too. Hmm seems to me the Idiot here is you.

Have a nice day.

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so, you say that what someone can make, all should be able use.... Then i ask you if you think i should be able to use doctor buffs(as a non doctor) and you say no? But someone as a non ranger should be able to use Camo?

as to calling you a communist. i think that's pretty acurrate for your post. If all i knew about you was that post, then it's obvious your completely against individualism. as you want no profession in this game to have any thing unique. everyone should be equal, no matter what.

oh, and I served, and am still serving my country too. Thanks for serving too, but it doesnt save you from being an idiot when it comes to SWG.

also, Owen does a great job. I commend him for his work. But, I also believe that it the Ranger communities "level headedness" and "civilised" manner that has put us in this situation to begin with. When your the queitest community, your going to be ignored. I get angry, and just dont fell like supressing it sometimes. Because sometimes people need to get angry. That's why i changed my signature. to let everyone know i'm an ANGRY ranger. i dont represent the Ranger community as a whole.

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Rancorrider4 wrote:

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Owen-Lars wrote:

Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar

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This realy needs to change. I cant believe after all the feedback and discussion on this subject this change went live in its current form. Camo is a unique much loved ranger skill (although it has major issues preventing its regular usage) which in the ranger tree is extremely rare. Now this skill is being handed out to everyone without the slightest bit of compensations of even discussion from the dev side on this subject.

Even just changing the effects to mask scent instread of camo would suffice and leave ranger with their unique skill (camo) that hopefully can have its own issues addressed soon.

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I'd like to thank Owen for taking such a calm and well mannered stance on this blatant nerf of whats left of the Ranger profession. Tiggs, why don't you and the developement team just scrap what little is left of Ranger and part it out to the other professions. BH's have been clamoring for our tracking skills for an eternity. You could just dispose of camps and save server space. Hunting and harvesting? Just give it to Scout. The Dev team has slowly destroyed the Ranger piece by piece over the last year and a half. We have submitted COUNTLESS different proposals, not the least of which was the Outdoorsman Proposal which was promptly filed under some of your other coffee and food stained documents from the Smugglers and Squad Leaders.

Your blatant disregard and destruction of a very enjoyable profession is saddening given how well mannered and articulate the Ranger community has been with you, and that is stating it as nicely as possible. Jedi shed one tear about something and they get a fix or a nerf to some other profession that could possibly affect them. The Ranger group has been patiently waiting and doing whatever you have asked of them and this is their reward. Just shoot us and put us out of our misery. This way you can more fully concentrate on the big money maker Jedi and other things that aren't even in the timeline that was originally rolled out with this game.

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AragornSoS wrote:

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ThrakenSal wrote:

Well My friend, you of all people should see that this is not as bad as it seems, the camo kits were pretty useless to start with. My Ranger alt tried them and found they broke faster than mask scent and were not as wonderful as you seem to think. I look at it this way, if I can make these and they work then great, if I can make these, they work and can sell them to folks to use, then all the better for us all. I mean Ranger is pretty much a useless skill any how, since camps have been made completely useless, traps do not work right anymore, camo is borked, and we get nothing in the way of GOOD weapons to use. I 'm not complaining, Area track is still pretty cool, if you can find anything around anymore. But if we can sell our goods to others to use and to protect the crafters, even just a small bit, then I think it's a good thing.

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So you don't mind if the next publish gives everyone the ability to use smuggler tools do basic slices (but hey, you still have to see a smuggler if you want more than a basic slice with a better chance of a really great slice after all)? The fact is that Ranger was "outside the scope of the CU" and has watched almost every unique skill for Ranger handed out to other professions - more than ever now, we are literally nothing more than "Scout Plus". There were a tremendous number of posts on the Ranger forum (and Core Systems forum, until it got moved then deleted) about this change. Rangers were proposing alternatives to this that would hopefully NOT take elite skills away from any elite professions, and yet this goes live with little testing, and no feedback from the Devs. Admitedly camo was fairly broken at this point with all of the changes from the CU and the changes in AI and aggro in this patch, but now yet another "unique" and profession defining skill for Ranger has been handed out to everyone.

For 140SP invested, here's what I get:

a /rescue command that broke with the CU, since it requires a command that no longer exists to work correctly (/peace)
harvest mods that let me mostly be able to keep up with a double combat prof w/novice scout and hash and a droid (talking about total harvest over time)
camo that is largely broken, that I have to spend 140SP to even make the kits and get a +100 mod, but which anyone can now use without spending a single SP in anything remotely resembling a skill related to survival or concealment. And, before you say "well Armorsmiths can't wear armor", that's correct, they can't. But if *I* want to wear armor, I DO need to invest skills into at least a novice elite combat profession (and I better master or I'll be dealing with some very high armor encumbrances). Now we're giving out skills for agro avoidance/concealment (formerly requiring skill point investment in Scout and Ranger) to everyone in the game, regardless of where they've invested skills.
traps that do no damage and supposedly apply states, but really don't (they're broken or apply useless states that don't seem to do anything) and which are gated to PvE creature only. Meanwhile, many combat professions suddenly picked up new specials that DO apply states AND deal damage, and do it significantly better than Scout or Ranger traps do at the moment.
camps - well, I have nice eye candy. This might actually be one of the most beneficial things I have now, since if I'm willing to sit around in one, I can heal my own wounds without a doc around (and they're mighty hard to find these days)
/areatrack is largely useless. With most wild spawns coming in at levels considerably lower than my CL of 80, if I'm hunting for XP, /areatrack is currently useless. If I'm hunting for harvest, it's mildly useful, but I'm actually much better off tied to a mission terminal, since I get missions at my level, which actually provide XP, pay me for completion, AND offer a significantly higher organic harvest yield. We won't talk about the clunky interface, the fact that it can't be done mounted, the fact that it doesn't show you the CL of what you're tracking, the fact that the range never changes from Novice to Master Ranger, the fact that things like Transport Shuttles show up when tracking Animals, or the hole at roughly 100 or so meters where you can SEE the Krayt in game, but can't get it come come up on tracking.
TN mods that do nothing more than make me crawl faster (great if you're a rifleman like me, but worthless for anyone else)
As the personal concealment and wilderness survival specialists, we can at least drop off the... oh wait, no we can't. That's Jedi and Riflemen, isn't it.
Despite all of this, I *AM* still a Ranger. As many say, it's not a profession, it's a lifestyle. The best weapon I have is still the one between my ears. Despite having almost every profession unique skill we have handed out to others for free, we're still here. I have no intention of ever dropping Ranger unless it's removed from the game - it's what I've wanted to do since the day I started my first toon.

It IS rather frustrating though, to sit here and watch almost every skill we have either break due to poor planning and changes from the CU, or because someone forgot that the "out of scope" professions actually have skills that rely on certain comands, or be handed out to others for free. If someone wants to avoid agro, let them invest in Scout 2000 to get Maskscent or heck, move Maskscent to Noice scout to minimize the skill points required if it's THAT big an issue. What this is doing is watering down the game to the point where there are few consequences to any decisions. I know that by going Ranger, I'm making a conscious choice to limit myself to a single combat mastery, no useful combat mods from Ranger at the current time, and 4 SP to use on... well, FS boxes I guess. But that's a CHOICE I've made, and one I live with. Why is it so hard for others to accept similar choices? If you choose to be a crafter, you are NOT going to be "viable" and live long on high end adventure planets. There SHOULD be a consequence for choosing a profession or template that limits your combat skills. Giving away the skills of another elite profession to everyone in the game because people don't want to deal with the consequences of their choices is, IMHO, not the best option. But it's one we now have to deal with since our feedback and concerns seems to have been ignored.

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AragornSoS wrote:

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wickedHangover wrote:

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Owen-Lars wrote:

"Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar."

This realy needs to change. I cant believe after all the feedback and discussion on this subject this change went live in its current form. Camo is a unique much loved ranger skill (although it has major issues preventing its regular usage) which in the ranger tree is extremely rare. Now this skill is being handed out to everyone without the slightest bit of compensations of even discussion from the dev side on this subject.

Even just changing the effects to mask scent instread of camo would suffice and leave ranger with their unique skill (camo) that hopefully can have its own issues addressed soon.

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As a master ranger on Flurry, I look forward to another source of revenue aside from the boring kill/harvest skill. I completely disagree with what you say and if you think cammo kits are better than mask scent, I have to ask if you really are a ranger LOL

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You might have missed the part in red. No Ranger who knows anything about the profession would currently rate camo as "Better" than maskscent, except for POSSIBLY on the few occassions when it happens to work successfully against NPCs. As Owen stated, camo has some major issues. It's largely broken. There has seemed to be a difference of opinion even from what little we've heard from the Devs in the past as to whether it's intended to work against NPCs or not (I think many of us would argue that it should, but...).

I think what has most folks up in arms is that camo has some AMAZING potential. Spend a few minutes looking through the Ranger forum. Read the various proposals (including the Outdoorsman). Consider what camo COULD have been fixed and modified to be, and how it COULD have been a defining skill for the profession and an amazing foundation to build upon in the Ranger Revamp (if that ever actually happens). Now consider that all of that has now been taken away from us, with no discussion, no information on what might be better or replace it, or even any real indication as to what our role is supposed to be in the game. There could very well be some amazing and fun changes planned for Ranger in the future, there could be some things that make us all say "pshaw, who CARES about camo now, we have ghillie suits and radar invisibility while walking! Woot!". However... we don't know that. We actually don't know anything. There is no "In Concept - Ranger Revamp" thread, there is not even an acknowledgement of this being a concern or an issue by anyone from SOE. All we have is the fact that yet another skill that used to cost what, 77 or so SP to even be able to START using it, has now been given away, for free, to the entire community. To that I say thanks but no thanks - I never asked to be a crafter, and never asked to watch the profession I most wanted to play have every single skill invalidated or handed out to everyone else in the game.

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JascoSmlee wrote:

Artificial Intelligence

As a player becomes higher in level than an NPC or creature, the aggro radius vs. the AI becomes smaller. A gray con will never aggro. The exception to this is Imperial and Rebel NPC enemies who will still have a full aggro radius.
Well thats great, so why do I spend sooooooo many skill points on Master Ranger so I can camo myself to avoid such aggro?

Crafters

Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar
Oh is this why then? Are you kidding me? Why would I make kits to sell, THAT I WONT EVEN NEED MYSELF ANYMORE DUE TO THE GREY CON AGGRO CHANGE?

This patch pretty much completely nerfs yet another line of Ranger. We only have tracking left to go.

To those thay say "well camo was pretty useless anyway". Have you actually played a Master Ranger with capped camo mods? I can go pretty much anywhere without my camo breaking for 1/2 hour if I'm careful. When it works it is a millions times better than mask scent. It did actually help me justify spending all those skill points on Master.

To those that say "its another money making opportunity". Well it would be if i was a CRAFTER. RANGERS ARE NOT CRAFTERS. If you want to buy camo kits off me you can go whistle. I have better things to do than spend my life messing about with factories. There is no incentive at all for me to sell kits. I can make more money by just selling the resources used to make them without the hassle of dealing with factories and crap.

Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 05-26-2005 05:10 PM

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Vorpaks wrote:

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Salvatoris wrote:

If anyone is now allowed to use camo, previously a Ranger only skill - does this mean that I - a Ranger - can now use other classes' abilities?

Yes, you can now use armor, weapons, food, stims, vehicles, houses and harvesters made by other professions.

I think what he was saying Salvatoris is that camo used to be an ability that you invested skill points to use. Now it is simply a schematic like all those artisan crafted items you mentioned above. The difference is that the items you listed do not automatically give you the ability. If I buy a survey device do I automatically get the ability to survey? No, I have to invest skill points for that. That is why the survey line is useful and in turn makes the artisan profession useful.

Sure, only a Ranger can make the kit, cool. Only medical types can make rez kits. Why not make them universally usable? Not like I can sell camo kits on my vendor - oh wait, can I get vendors free now too?

Yes, you can now get "free" vendors by dedicating some of your skillpoints to novice business skills... Just like the rest of us.

Given your logic I can say if you want to use the camo ability you can dedicate some of your skillpoints to scout or ranger skills... just like the rest of us. Ranger currently do not have the choice to invest skillpoints in artisan. With Master Ranger (needed to make all the kits) and a single combat profession (needed to gather the resources to make the kits) we have 4 skillpoints free. Getting a "free" vendor requires approximately 27 skill points.

Sorry gang, I am not making any kits for sale. Some friends will get them for free. The artisans can whine about being killed whenever they go to check harvestors. Not like they "had" to put harvestors on Lok and Dath and other places where the big baddies would eat their non-combat butts. No help from me. I have to spend how many SP to get the ability that y'all are now getting for free?

I'm sure your competition wont mind you not selling these.... more business for them. And yes, crafters with no combat should probably refrain from putting harvesters on Dath, but we do have named resources from Dath... and this is where you are being selfish and petty... you do understand that pure crafters can have a combat level of zero right? That means even the lowest level mobs outside Mos Eisley can kill them as they try to survey or manage their harvesters. Of course, as long it doesn't affect you, I guess it doesn't matter.

Everyone pretty much agrees that crafters need help. And Rangers have offered just as many suggestions as anyone else. The best one I have heard so far is look at what is causing the problem - the CL system's damage multiplier - and fix that.

Most Rangers would not even mind the camo kit thing if it came with any kind of feedback from the development team on what they are planning to do to make the Ranger's concealment/survival skill unique and a good investment of skillpoints. Instead all they have ever seen on this is silence, and dilution of the uniqueness of what they do have.

I will give you an example. Camps are supposed to repel aggro but they were broken. Recently the development team told the community that camps would never repel aggro because it could be used as an exploit. That's it. No "BUT we are thinking of doing THIS with camps in the future to make them useful!" Nothing.

When speeders, player city shuttles and POIs came into the game it seriously impacterd the Ranger and Scouts roles as the survivalists. Now anyone with a speeder could survive just as well. Rangers were no longer explorers because handy dandy waypoints showed the people with speeders where everything of interest could be found. No one really complained about this too much because - heck speeders and player cities were awesome! It would have been nice if the development team could have provided something for scouts/rangers to make up for their lost functionality. But they didn't.

You are looking at this change as one single thing. Rangers are looking at it as just one more thing in a history of things that make our profession less unique and less worth the skillpoint investment. There is no precedent that the developers will give us anything that we can claim as our own unique ability. They never have before and the community has stopped expecting it.

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Butcha wrote:

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Salvatoris wrote:
Before i start a point by point... let me say that this is one of the most selfish whiny posts I have read in a long time.... on top of that, most of your arguments are nonsense.

And you can rest assured, your comments come off as whiny too.

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JBMat wrote:

If anyone is now allowed to use camo, previously a Ranger only skill - does this mean that I - a Ranger - can now use other classes' abilities?

Yes, you can now use armor because we are certed for it, weapons because we were given a CL for Ranger and only specific weapons if we choose to have a combat profession along with Ranger, food everyone can, stims everone can, vehicles everyone can, houses everyone can and harvesters everyone can made by other professions artisan and architect only.

Sure, only a Ranger can make the kit, cool. Only medical types can make rez kits. Why not make them universally usable? Not like I can sell camo kits on my vendor - oh wait, can I get vendors free now too?

Yes, you can now get "free" vendors by dedicating some of your skillpoints to novice business skills... Just like the rest of us. we need combat professions to complement ranger to harvest resources necessary to make camo kits. After master ranger and a master combat profession we are left with 4 skill points. Now as some of those resources we need require that we hunt on adventure planets, we need to have a high enough CL to survive, which means that it is almost imperative that you have a Master Combat profession. And as the highest level Camo kits are awarded at master ranger, we kinda need that too. So, no, we do not get "free" vendors since we have not the skill points to invest.

Not only is this an infringement on my abilities, I also lose XP. When I camo you, you work off my camo ability (somewhere now above 130). I also got XP if I was near you and you sucessfully hid from a creature. No more.

This was never your only, or even primary source of gaining XP. I have an idea... gather hide for XP, sell nit at a reasonable price... two of your problems solved right there. We have been doing that. Your idea can now be shoved right back in that big mouth of yours.

Sorry gang, I am not making any kits for sale. Some friends will get them for free. The artisans can whine about being killed whenever they go to check harvestors. Not like they "had" to put harvestors on Lok and Dath and other places where the big baddies would eat their non-combat butts. No help from me. I have to spend how many SP to get the ability that y'all are now getting for free?

I'm sure your competition wont mind you not selling these.competition being other Rangers? HA!!! Good luck finding a Ranger selling these. ... more business for them. And yes, crafters with no combat should probably refrain from putting harvesters on Dath, but we do have named resources from Dath... and this is where you are being selfish and petty I think he has every right in the world to be both selfish and petty. Ahh. the joys of freedom... you do understand that pure crafters can have a combat level of zero right? NOoo, ya don't say? That means even the lowest level mobs outside Mos Eisley can kill them as they try to survey or manage their harvesters. Then get a combat profession or find someone to escort you or don't be stupid and try and drop a harv in a field of kreetles. Of course, as long it doesn't affect you, I guess it doesn't matter. You guess correctly.

JB

on second thought, 5 use kits, the lowest uses I make, will be on sale for whatever the max is on the bazaar vendors. And realize, they won't work on the tougher planets, as it is "your" camo ability they are feeding off of, not mine.

again, I'm sure your competition appreciates this. Competition? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH......ahem.....ha!

SalvatoriS

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Bah, my bad, I was posting stuff from this into that Jedi thread, and I accidentally submitted a reply of information already here rather than editing it.

I apoligize.

BTW, you're welcome to use any posts here as your reply in that thread on the Jedi forums as well

Message Edited by BioEngine on 06-24-2005 03:02 PM