Ranger Archive
Thread: Ranger: The Recon Unit (ranger role development)
Nemo0
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:38 am
#27
Owen-Lars wrote:
But a sexy looking trash can
Hey nemo for this harvest reduction switch, do you think it should be an actual skill the ranger posses (if so where abouts), should the group leader be given the options (group commands) or should the ranger have to lead to group (possible conflicts with sl's)?
Hmm. Thinking about it from a coding perspective, leading the group seems the easiest to implement (as you only need to check one person's skills instead of 20). But that gives you the SL problem. Making it an optional command makes it a bit of a hassle. Making it a mod makes having multiple Rangers a bit more complex.
Personally, I'd say to just make it automatic if there is a Ranger in the group (i.e. the Ranger directs the people to harvest properly so nothing is wasted). But this leads to potential problems with disbanding and such. Maybe just list it as something that would be nice but not giving specific details? There are many ways to handle it but the best way depends a lot on the specific implementation the Devs use.
As for location, maybe make it a Novice Ranger perk? This way a Novice Ranger has a very useful skill that will help them get into groups. I don't see it as too overpowering there as they do need Master Scout to get there and that is a lot of skill points. As it is, the tree seems to be getting a bit top heavy. This is the sort of skill that could give a Novice the needed boost to get into lots of hunting groups. But it might be too powerful to put down there as it almost doubles the amount that a group can harvest. Some sort of tiering would be nice (and would allow Novice to get some level of it without making it a huge bonus) but, again, would probably require more work.
Maybe it's best to just list it somewhere in the description below instead of trying to find a place for it. Giving exact locations before we know how it will work is a bit hard to do. A comment like "Hunt Leadership allows the Ranger to direct his group in more efficient harvesting techniques. Thiswould greatly mitigate the group harvesting penalty, possibly even removingit." would indicate that we would want it without needing to give it a specific place or a specific method of working. Exact balancing issues can probably wait until we have some idea of how it might work.
Owen-Lars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:46 am
#28
Yeah i was just going to suggest group harvest mitigation. That would be a great skill to scale up somewhere within the ranger tree.
Owen-Lars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:57 am
#29
ya sounds it. Ill just leave it as it is then and refine the description 2mora after i get back in
Owen-Lars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:06 am
#30
You and Phenix have killed more trees... /sigh
lol paks, we cants help it hehe, we start typing and our fingers go off on one. Although i remember when i printed out the Outdoorsman2 for a read whilst watching the tv and it came out like anovel all together which was great because i dont normally read books hehe. Some people dont like reading long posts and im sorry for that, i should bullet the main points somewhere hehe, but detail is what gets me interested in ideas, and killing trees lol.
countering Ranger skills with Ranger skills. It really pushes the idea that a Ranger would be needed in any group PvE or PvP.
Yeah bil, i was trying to get that across but not sure if it did or not. Glad to see you picked it up. Its kind of the main role i see for us, with traps we can become very combat effective, and with a ranger in group, the group becomes more combat effective. Then theres the other side of it, a ranger can use his/her skills to try limit a ranger in another group, fight another ranger. The idea is like you said the concept increases our need for pve and pvp grouping because, to combat a ranger, the best way is to know how a ranger thinks, and the best way to know how a ranger thinks is to be a ranger.
I can realy picture a situation where rangers will be scouting ahead of the group, areatracking which would be highly usefull and trying to find the other rangers out there and warn the group. At present in the idea there is no ranger only skills that let you find a master ranger, do you have any ideas for this? Perhaps you could /track is (updatable waypoints) and when you find him/her whilst in stealth mode you expose them with a delay that stops them from /reconconcealing against any time soon?
I think we definatly need a way to find master rangers and expose them but something that requires skill to pull off, something that doesnt expose the other ranger and quiet possibly something that allows the enemy ranger to counter if he/she has their whits about them. Perhaps a master ranger has an ability that exposes everything within 15m of him/herself no matter what the situation or posture the enemy ranger is in.
frightwig
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:46 am
#31
Great post!
But, playing the devil's advocate here..
When is the recon skill mod, not the ability, granted? At recon 4? If so, wouldn't it have to be something like +50 granted at recon 4 and another +50 granted in the master box? If it were spread out in all the recon skill boxes, but the ability itself only granted at recon 4, it's skill mod would only be useful at recon4. I only mention this because your example states: For example a master ranger with +100 recon skill would stand a much better chance at remaining stealthed from an enemy 20m away than a ranger with only +30. This would assume that at recon 4, +30 recon skill is granted, or in 4 boxes of recon skill, you've accumulated 30 points. In other words, it would seem you only have two levels of people with recon. Those at master ranger, and those that aren't.. unless I just misunderstood how the skill mod works or how it's granted.
I love the /gatherintel ability!! If starships can continuously update a waypoint, I don't see why we couldn't have that coded in for targeted creatures for hunting purposes. This is a great group ability and would go great with /areatrack. I'd actually like tracking for others again. I could /areatrack a krayt, target it and /gatherintel. The group would see the waypoint and run towards it without me having to manually send a /group message or tell to someone with the waypoint. Brilliant!
Also, how about this idea?
Camp Waypoints
Any scout, squad leader or ranger of any skill level who puts down a camp creates a temporary waypoint which all group members can see (similar to "closest mission for group"). This would allow for group members to form up at a central location when party members get separated. Again, this is already coded into the game for group mission waypoints.
But, playing the devil's advocate here..
When is the recon skill mod, not the ability, granted? At recon 4? If so, wouldn't it have to be something like +50 granted at recon 4 and another +50 granted in the master box? If it were spread out in all the recon skill boxes, but the ability itself only granted at recon 4, it's skill mod would only be useful at recon4. I only mention this because your example states: For example a master ranger with +100 recon skill would stand a much better chance at remaining stealthed from an enemy 20m away than a ranger with only +30. This would assume that at recon 4, +30 recon skill is granted, or in 4 boxes of recon skill, you've accumulated 30 points. In other words, it would seem you only have two levels of people with recon. Those at master ranger, and those that aren't.. unless I just misunderstood how the skill mod works or how it's granted.I love the /gatherintel ability!! If starships can continuously update a waypoint, I don't see why we couldn't have that coded in for targeted creatures for hunting purposes. This is a great group ability and would go great with /areatrack. I'd actually like tracking for others again. I could /areatrack a krayt, target it and /gatherintel. The group would see the waypoint and run towards it without me having to manually send a /group message or tell to someone with the waypoint. Brilliant!
Also, how about this idea?
Camp Waypoints
Any scout, squad leader or ranger of any skill level who puts down a camp creates a temporary waypoint which all group members can see (similar to "closest mission for group"). This would allow for group members to form up at a central location when party members get separated. Again, this is already coded into the game for group mission waypoints.
Message Edited by frightwig on 11-10-2004 09:50 AM
Owen-Lars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:59 am
#32
Yeah on the recon thing i just blasted down a few ideas, i didnt think about it too much. I just wanted to get the skill and the counters layed down and forgot about how it would fit into the tree in regards to mods etc. Ill fix that.
As for the camp waypoint, i like that. Could be prety simple to pull off too (compared to other changes/additions).
But if i had my way only ranger and scouts would put down camps squad leaders and lots of other professions would simply enhance our base units (ranger would be able to also) rather than then putting down their own camps.
squad leaders and lots of other professions would simply enhance our base units (ranger would be able to also) rather than then putting down their own camps.
frightwig
Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:32 am
#33
Owen-Lars wrote:Yeah on the recon thing i just blasted down a few ideas, i didnt think about it too much. I just wanted to get the skill and the counters layed down and forgot about how it would fit into the tree in regards to mods etc. Ill fix that.
Hehe.. no problem. Not criticising, just something I noticed.
But if i had my way only ranger and scouts would put down camps
Yeah, but Squad leaders get camps from their scout requirements by default.
I wouldn't suggest that anyone else other than ranger gets modular camps, though. The waypoint idea might not exactly fit specifically into this outline, but it's a simple way to make all camps useful again on a basic level. The alternative is to grant this somewhere in the ranger frontiering tree, as if the ranger gains the ability to "broadcast" coordinates to the group in the Field base camp or HTFB. (And in those camps only)
I wouldn't really mind it being ranger only, as it might be kind of annoying to be in a large group and everyone with scout skills would plop down camps and create waypoints among group members.. (unless it worked like missions.. ie. "Nearest Camp".)
Message Edited by frightwig on 11-10-2004 10:34 AM
Nemo0
Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:49 am
#34
With the skill mod, it might just be easiest to make it work of the camouflage mod. It's already there, it's Ranger only, and Bothans geta bonus
.
.You could also make a counter-camo mod (or tracking mod) to make the countering skill based off something else.
With camps, it's not a bad thing to keep higher camps only to Rangers. Squad Leaders do have most of the Scout camps available to them. If they get fortifications, they can either use the Scout camps to fortify, bring a Ranger along, or pick up some Ranger for themselves. It promotes interdependency. If the skill can be used alone but is better with another player, that makes it a nicer choice for the Devs.
With waypoints, it's not all that necessary (i.e. probably a waste of coding time). We have the group member indicators that tell you where the camp is (as the Ranger has to stay in the camp currently). We also have the group waypoint indicators that they are working on (so making a waypoint for yourself will show everyone where it is). While the tracking one is probably useful enough to keep, the camp one is almost unnecessary.
Kiryoku
Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:30 pm
#35
just wanted to drop a few comments, as i haven't been posting much of late...
first off... this describes almost to a tee exactly what i think rangering should be... i'm a huge advocate of the military ranger approach in this game, and a really large chunk of that is recon... great job in putting it together...
one of my all-time favorite recon ideas was that of the scout radar system (for those that don't remember, it basically entailed granting radar and increasing radar range/accuracy as you gained levels of scout/ranger)... we pretty much all agreed it was too big of a change at the time, but with the development of the CU i think it is possible... all aspects of combat are up for evaluation, i'd like to see this idea included...
i noticed you took out terrain negotiation and rescue... although TN is only useful to a small group of rangers, i think it represented an important aspect of rangering - or did you mean for pathfinding to replace it?... as for rescue, i see this as an important ability for someone leading a hunt (albeit, with some of the nice changes we've discussed elsewhere) - no need for it to be in trapping, but hunt leadership maybe?
i saw some talk of camo+armor, and it reminded me of something i read here once a long time ago... the author proposed that rangers be given the ability to make armor powerups (something that has yet to be implemented) using a crafting station in our higher level camps... a slight variation on this might allowing rangers to make temporary skill mods that function like powerups on armor - in essance, camo+armor (and maybe a few others)...
for recon conceal, i think it will need it's own skill mod... because of the power of the ability and because of the way things like stealth scan work, it needs to bea little more absolute than some of the current modifiers (like camo)... this means current skill tapes, clothing mods, and racial bonuses would not apply...
Owen-Lars
Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:20 pm
#36
i noticed you took out terrain negotiation and rescue...
Its ok mate, i wasnt taking anything out or making other skills redundant, simply highlighting the new or main abilities that define our role. Obviously /rescue would reature in there somewhere but i didnt think it would highlight the role of a ranger in a recon sense any more than had already been stated so i left it out.
The post is simply trying to define the direction i would personally like to take. As for the skill mods such as TN, those would in the tree, as would camo, melee defense, ranged defense, creature toughness, trapping, recon, camping, forage and all the other possibilities that would fit into the recon ranger. I didnt put ANY mods in because of the CU. The CU will completely change the way we fight and the professions we have come to love and cherish may be comepletely redefined.
As such any mods we do add in terms of combat effectiveness or even placing skills (the reason why i was so casual about where the skills where placed) may be completely in appropriate after the combat upgrade. I would rather leave them out and just say that the ranger if defensivly minded about combat or ranger levels up camo within a certain tier with a bonus at master than set it all out now. Obviously after the CU goes live and everything is set out, we can come back and lay out all the mods, the right amount of a certain skill and flesh the whole thing out.
The radar issue would still be prety hard to get implemented i think, obviously i cant talk about the cu or anything like that but i can just see some people objecting to it being removed all together in their templates.
If stealth or abilities such as camo masked you from the radar then i think that would be much more beneficial. Most people will be tracking the red dots, not many will be searching out the ranger on the radar when a group is attacking.
Gelotri
Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:28 pm
#37
Wonderfully done Owen. I was wondering what folks would think about adding the ability to use the HTFB built in terminal for missions or allow the Master Ranger to act as an in-the-field Faction recruiter? Now that would make us rather popular.
Scarin
Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:49 pm
#38
This is an excellent thread. The Ranger community has been teetering between the Outdoorsman and Military Ranger since launch. While we've had a lot of ideas about Outdoorsman I've never seen a Military Ranger idea as comprehensive and well thought out as this one.
That said, they're a couple of things that I think could berefined.
/Pathfind - Maybe I'm not understanding this fully, but why do we need this instead of our Burst Run mods? You mentioned a speed increase somehow offset by a damage mod, but by the time the kinks are worked out I don't think you'd end up with something any different than /burstrun. I'm not against the idea completely, I guess I'm just not convinced that its that different from burst run and worth arguing to the devs.
/GatherIntel - I love this idea but I think it can be simplified. No need for combat delays, timers etc. Just have the command create an a target on group members display with an updated arrow. This would look and feel ( and use the same code ) the same way group members names are already displayed, with the distance and little arrow in the corner updating the targets position. The Rangers ability to use this skill effectively would then be related to his other skills ( like camoflauge if he wanted to get the target without being seen ). Maybe this ability could then be placed in the hunting tree, to spread out the wealth and limit the potential for uber dabbling templates.
Traps amd stealth- Those are some cool ideas. I think both of those are issues are so complex, we really need a community discussion on how best to implement the broad range of ideas Rangers have thought of over the past year.
One minor point, ( this isn't directed at you owen but the whole community ) just for clarity maybe we should refer to /conceal and /reconconceal abilities differently. The devs used the /conceal ability with our camo kits and the camofluage mod, which is confusing and never really made much sense to me. It also then gets more confusing we come up with a new idea like /reconconceal which is a seperate idea of stealth.
Perhaps for future clarity we could refer to what is nowcalled /conceal as /camoflauge ( or /camo for short).This would make more sense as our camo kits and our camoflauge mod would correspond with or /camoability. We could then use /reconconceal or /concealfor that different idea of stealth, like the ability given at Master Ranger which makes you invisible etc... I don't want to get hung up on word choices but maybe it would be easier in the long run if we got used to a simpler set of terms.
Message Edited by Scarin on 11-10-2004 05:55 PM
Nemo0
Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:18 pm
#39
I think the idea of pathfind is to remove the downtime of burstrun. Right now, you burst run for a bit and then you are tired for a while. Pathfind would let you keep up the burstrun rate for as long as you want but you get a few other penalties instead. It's main use would be for scouting things out but it might be useful to get out of a bad combat situation as well (although the increased damage might make that more difficult). I still sometimes walk around (especially when tracking) and a bit of extra speed wouldn't hurt while doing it.