Ranger Archive
Thread: Revised harvesting changes..
Like it or not I won't give it a rest because I think this is fundamentally important to the game,not just the ranger profession.
frightwig wrote:
How do I put this...
GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! You're completely missing the point. it's a multiplayer game and the devs are going to encourage grouping. Even more so when CURB comes. They do plan to implement a bonus for grouping somehow.
Whether you want to solo or group hunt is up to you. We definitely DO need to test this and it's absurd to think by refusing to test we're "validating an unfair system".
Fair or not, our main concern right now is how the bonuses factor in and balance out. We need to make sure we understand these changes exactly, how it affects us, and present the facts to our correspondent so we can figure out how to get this changed for the best.
As this change stands right now, it's very unbalanced with the majority of the grouping benefit given to scouts and novice rangers, but not master rangers. Unfortunately, the devs seem set on giving a bonus, so the best we can hope for right now is to make sure our profession isn't hurt by this bonus.
Grouping or not, that's your choice.. but the days of the solo ranger are numbered, whether we like it or not.
Message Edited by DaveG on 02-19-2005 08:56 PM
As a Master Ranger that has always Solo hunted because the -40% rule has been there since I started, I think the bonus approach will finally get me out there grouped. I think if the bonus was not there but the penalty removed I'd be inclined to continue to Solo hunt. I learned to hunt solo so, I'd just stick to what I know. I think the Devs have this bonus in mind for players like me. I think it will work too. If a bonus goes live, I'm going to be learning a new way to hunt. Not that I mind, change is good from time to time.
Phenix1050 wrote:
Dave a couple of more things:
- when grouped you kill stuff faster
-when grouped you can get higher missions
-when grouped you can have someone heal you
There will ALWAYS be an incentive to group. This is an Multiplayer game. Yes, it's a roleplaying game too. But nobody should be as effective by themselves as a group is.
Well there you have answered DaveG's questions
Those 3 points are ALREADY the benefit of being IN a group. No need to add a bonus. There should not be a penatly either, neither for the soloist as for the groupmembers.
At this time, most scout/rangers prefer NOT to use groups because of the penalty. Remove penalty and they will be grouping again.
Obata wrote:
The point you missed is that, until the true formula was derived, we would have all assumed that the harvesting mod is used as a simple multiplier. We would have all been wrong, and would have done a bunch of beautiful math that would have had no root in reality. Deriving the formula by using the hard data is the only way it could be done, barring one of SOEs programmers looking it up in the code for us.
Yes, I did make a typo on the master rangers bonus, it should have been 130, but that's still higher than the 126 for the 0040. That means, had we just acted on those thoertical numbers, we would NOT have expected to see the 0040 ranger harvest more. It's only after doing some testing that we not only know that the 0040 ranger does harvest more and why that happens. With the formula in hand, less actual testing is now needed. But, my formula is really just a new model that happens to explain everything we've observed so far. It could still be completely wrong.
Edit: I forgot to reiterate that you miscalculated the 0040 mod when grouped with a MR, it would be 126, not 136. That makes it less than the aforementioned 130 that the master ranger would get. Therefore, your point was wrong. You see it now?
Message Edited by Obata on 02-20-2005 01:34 AM
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Phenix1050 wrote:Dave a couple of more things:- when grouped you kill stuff faster-when grouped you can get higher missions-when grouped you can have someone heal youThere will ALWAYS be an incentive to group. This is an Multiplayer game. Yes, it's a roleplaying game too. But nobody should be as effective by themselves as a group is.Well there you have answered DaveG's questions
Those 3 points are ALREADY the benefit of being IN a group. No need to add a bonus. There should not be a penatly either, neither for the soloist as for the groupmembers.
At this time, most scout/rangers prefer NOT to use groups because of the penalty. Remove penalty and they will be grouping again.
I feel the same way, these three points are value enough to group. At least before the buff mania they were enough to group.
If the DEV's want to encourage grouping, then they should do it by adjusting the abilities to take out the high end creatures solo. Make it so that you are able to do them solo but let it take time and tactics, then you have a reason to group. This way you can be the "Lone Ranger" but you could also be the "Hunting Guide" in a group.
DaveG wrote:
(Phenix, my pictuer is bigger than yours :smileyvery-happy
Dave, need I remind you that there is a small, tiny, insignificant change called the Combat Upgrade in the works? Beleive me, sir, everything you think you know is going to change. So please, stop the senseless personal attacks. I don't care if you were joking, the fact of the matter is that you claim to somehow have a more open viewpoint. Dave-- look at this from every other professions' viewpoint for half a second. This is good for all crafters and for people who want to both hunt and do PvP. This will benefit 95% of the players out there. What we need to make sure is that it has the potential to help us too.
Dave, I'm actually compelled to edit this message, seeing as how I re-read something you wrote: "The customer is always right, and we're the customers." That'd be a reasonable and logical argument if the only people they cared about were Rangers. But there are some thirty-odd professions that aren't Ranger. And I'll tell you, non-rangers are a significant portion of the customers. and let me tell you, most other professions, including their correspondants, were happy with this in its original form, when there was no bonus to Ranger. They wanted it very badly and while I will fight to make sure it doesn't invalidate Ranger, I assure you, this is something that probably 90% of non-rangers wanted. So yes, the customer IS right. and the majority of customers want this.
I'm very disappointed in your attitude Dave, though I will say this isn't the first time.
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 02-20-2005 08:19 AM
Owen-Lars wrote:Some great discussionsCheers for doing some great testing guys ive used alot of it in my report on the corr forums. JB has got on board in the thread and i expect the others to soon enough.DaveG Wrote:"To Owen: If all else fails, remind them of the old saying, "The customer is always right", and we're the customers!"lol yeah im thinkin of tatooing "The Ranger customers are always right" on Tigg's arm when she is sleeping/runasfastaslegswillcarryme
Owen, how are the Devs justifying their intentions to take a profession skill (+creature harvest) and give it as a group bonus for everyone?
Shouldn't it be more like Squad Leader? No SL, no bonus. No Ranger, no bonus?
Oku Kee'lus
Oculus wrote:
Owen, how are the Devs justifying their intentions to take a profession skill (+creature harvest) and give it as a group bonus for everyone?
Shouldn't it be more like Squad Leader? No SL, no bonus. No Ranger, no bonus?
Well it's a 20% base bonus which has the capacity to double. There is a system in place where you don't get that extra bonus unless there's a Ranger. But I, too am worried about the basic numbers.
20% is a lot, and while I am in favor of adding a bonus, a 40% bonus is more than we get for ourselves from Master Scout to Master Ranger. That's a problem. If I had my druthers, the group penalty would be dead immediately. A Master Scout would add +5%, a novice Ranger would add +10% and a Master Ranger would add +20%, including to themselves.
As for their reasoning, I can't say specifically since I haven't talked on the Corr. forums. But knowing what I do about the game, they're trying to bring organics supply up and push group interaction. Unlike many MMO's people in SWG can solo pretty much anything in the game, meaning there's no great reason to group up except to get different missions. So I think if they believe they can kill two birds with one stone, they'll do it.
Phenix1050 wrote:
What you guys are missing is the whole point. Sorry Dave and the other person, but you're just really not getting it. The point of grouping is supposed to be that your group is getting exponentionally better. Right now, this isn't true. 1+1 =2 right now. You have two people grouped up, all you get is their skills together. You kill faster because there are more weapons shooting. I didn't answer your question, I provided a basis for why group changes are needed.
You're so wrong here.I do get the point, but I completely disagree and you can't see our pov.
You mentioned yourself 3 reasons why to group.
I'll give you a 4th one you didn't mention, you overlooked or did not bother to mention:
If the group penalty on harvesting was dropped, a group would get MUCH more harvest than 1 single person, hence also an encouragement to group, expecially combined with the faster killing of spawns.
This changfe alone would be a cause for the market to be flooded with more resources hence causing a drop of the prices, which are, as you pointed out, sometimes ridicilous (350cpu).
So a BONUS to a group is NOT needed, nor wanted.
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
You're so wrong here.I do get the point, but I completely disagree and you can't see our pov. your point of view is contrary to what the devs have stated that they want from the game.I can see it, it's really not that difficult. It's just contrary to the direction thedevsarehoping to take the game.
You mentioned yourself 3 reasons why to group. All of those were examples of 1+1 =2 ideas. Even ungrouped, it's easier to kill a creature with two people shooting at it, right? Even ungrouped, you can have someone heal you, right? Those things don't require you to find another person to group with. Neither does grouping to get higher level missions. You can group with a CH pet or a droid. NONE of those "group benefits" actually requires you to group with another person. They can be accomplished ungrouped or by grouping with a pet. Forcing people to be withing X number of meters of one another actually means you have to be with them to get the bonus. That's a 1+1=3 group idea, which is much smarter.
I'll give you a 4th one you didn't mention, you overlooked or did not bother to mention:
If the group penalty on harvesting was dropped, a group would get MUCH more harvest than 1 single person, hence also an encouragement to group, expecially combined with the faster killing of spawns.
But how does that benefit Rangers? If the penalty is simply dropped then we are left with the same situation we face now-- stackers will be more desireable in a hunting group than a Master Ranger. From first hand testing experience, I can tell you stackers are about twice as effective over the course of time as a Master Ranger. Dropping the harvest penalty will actually accentuate this and hurt Rangers as a profession. That is something I will fight against.
Giving a bonus when you have a Ranger in the group makes sense from both a realistic viewpoint and a gameplay one. It will encourage people to hunt with Rangers more than with scout stackers. If you're really concernedabout losing money, just consider how your no-penalty situation will work out. If you're hunting solo, a scout stacker can actually harvest more than you over the course of a buff. If they can GROUP, with no penalty, two scout stackers will destroy the amount that you can harvest. A no-bonus system encourages people to get more combat skills than Ranger skills. A bonus system encourages people to master Ranger.
2 guesses which one I'm more interested in seeing.
This changfe alone would be a cause for the market to be flooded with more resources hence causing a drop of the prices, which are, as you pointed out, sometimes ridicilous (350cpu).
So a BONUS to a group is NOT needed, nor wanted. nor wanted by a few people. Ask every crafter whether they want this. Ask doctors. Ask scout stackers. Again, we're not the only profession that this affects. From feedback from the correspondants of several other professions, I can tell you that most people outside this community want this. And a lot of people who are in this community want this. So don't assume that what a few people say here is the rule of thumb for what is wanted or not wanted. Until you deal with people from every other community, you really have no idea what the player base as a whole wants, do you?
Message Edited by Phenix1050 on 02-20-2005 08:52 AM