Ranger Archive
Thread: From a Commando to Rangers: Congrats! (but why the heck soe giving you OUR stuff?)
The perspective that Im coming from:
Rangers can set up mines. Rangers can blow up mines. Mine would thus be powerful, since these are a part of traps which helps Ranger's with their combat abilities.
Now...our equilvency in explosives are our grenades. Which really aren't that useful or damaging right now.
This is how I see it, if rangers are to get mines:
1) Commandos have the ability to chuck them and cause damage
2) Rangers have the ability to lay traps (a la Governator in Predator, think of us like the other Governator with the massive chaingun), including mines, which are static.
Go Commando-Ranger, you then have the ability to throw and lay explosives, and hence expand your explosives. But, if rangers get explosives that are far more useful and superior to our own, thats just another nail in the coffin of "Why Bother?" in regards to our profession. We don't want to have to go ranger now, like we do with ranged professions for damage, if we wanted to have good explosives...when they should already be in our profession.
Its not so much of a "they got something better", its a "we don't want to be left in the dust" type situation. Although it *would* be nice if we got Demo-charges...ie run up to a turret, lay a demo-charge then haul booty a la Han Solo when he destroyed the endor shield generator. Now THATs a commando.
There is a concern with the addition of "mines" to rangers, but for me its mostly in regards to damage. Would kinda suck if mines were far superior than to our grenades when we have a tree even titled "Explosives" in our profession.
Also, for a look on just how badly grenades are borked, Look here, its the #4 Commando Issue.
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-17-2005 09:56 PM
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-17-2005 09:57 PM
Owen-Lars wrote:
Traps like these have been slated for us since August 03 so nothing really commando about those there likewise with the modular trap ideaThat was a Ranger genious moment.
It only makes sense that rangers get explosive traps etc and to be honest, if the traps were out and out warheads etc then id agree with you. But these are layed down traps and traps that require you to hide them, sneak away and wait which is perfect for rangers hehe.
End of the day, yeah the high explosive wording link in with commandos but trap wise they are perfectly placed.
Ya I was part of that!! w00t!
/waves
N'Raas, Calc, Phenix, FredSkinner, JB, Owen, Nem0, Paks, Agonthalia, Fodder, DNDCas, and many others. I wish N'Raas and the others could be here for this. They would be very pleased.
I would be a very, very happy Commando if that was true, as well as a happy weaponsmith
I think you misunderstand me.
Rangers getting combat capabilities is great but to be given high damage aoe explosives is not just 'stepping' over the commando its outright shoving a foot down the commando's throat.
IMO if the rangers are to become the ultimate combat SCOUTS then High damage is NOT what it should be given.
Instead of damage 'traps' or 'mines' give them extremely useful ones. very high powered/long duration aoe debuffs mines/traps. Instead of blasting a target severely weaken and disorient/confuse it.
tacwraith wrote:
I think you misunderstand me.
Rangers getting combat capabilities is great but to be given high damage aoe explosives is not just 'stepping' over the commando its outright shoving a foot down the commando's throat.
IMO if the rangers are to become the ultimate combat SCOUTS then High damage is NOT what it should be given.
Instead of damage 'traps' or 'mines' give them extremely useful ones. very high powered/long duration aoe debuffs mines/traps. Instead of blasting a target severely weaken and disorient/confuse it.
Instead of damage mines give themhigh % areasnare+armor break effect. Perfectlyfits the subterfuge combatant that sneaks in and'softens' a targetwithout attracting attention until thecombat troops come in. or area KD+root or high powered weaken+blind effects.
But damage... NO.
If any of you played DAOC you will know that type of 'proffession' was tried and it was a fiasco as it displaced many other proffessions role. The Animist of Hibernia was described as an ultimate combat support class and like Rangers here they were given their 'damage' abilities by 'planting'their damage dealing devices on the ground. Result? their ability to place multiplehigh damage 'objects' created a not very mobile but extremely deadly damage dealer. Its support role neverworked because hey, its better to blast the crud out of people than to support your own team with debuffs orheals or stuff like that.
Rangers get stealth, get many abilities towork with theirstealth abilities and with a group in both urban and in the wildand when mixed with other combat proffessions have the potential to become very strong in combat.
heck just imagine.. rifleman/rangerplacesa high damage minefield walks to max firing range and once the other player gets blasted hard by themines he fires off his sniper shot and legshot followed soon after. Extreme firepower from 2 proffessions but only one of them is trulyadesignated damagedealer proffession. And gawd I wont even get to what BH's will do with ranger... its going to be insane.
Back tothe DAOC analogues..... ranger stealth when mixedwith other combat proffscreates nothing more than a 'stealth arms race' . You either are a stealther or you are their victim. Kindly speak to DAOC players and ask them what its like to be in e-main (pvp area) and have 10people unstealth and smack your arse out. You cant compete at all unless you HAVE stealth. The whinign you getfrom jedi cloak now will be exponentialwith rangerstealth ability... causeriflemen/carbineer/BH+ ranger will bekilling people from range with no warning and no risk to the attacker.
SOE is making a big mistake in my opinion. Its cool rangers getting the love but this type of love is very poorly thought out.
Umm your saying here basically that Rangers getting working traps isnt right because they have explosives in them? Because they have exploding bits they should be Commando weapons?
Out of the 4 traps they propose we have
1. A minefield
2. A poison dart
3. A flashbang
4. caltrops.
No. 1 is a laid trap that would be useless to a Commando as EVERYONE WOULD SEE YOU PLACING IT! Thats why its a ranger skill.
In yoru opinion Rangers should become the ultimate combat scouts. No, thats scout with all your other skillpoints in a combat class. This is Ranger as it is mentioned over and over and over and over in Star Wars lore. The Antarian Rangers first made their appearance in Timothy Zahns first trilogy of books, they are an esthablished part of the SWG canon universe and we have finally got on the road to becoming them.
If you think we should loose the minefield ability as we should be creature centric, then you as a commando should loose the ability to target animals with your weapons as commandos are an elite form of sentient killing.
I dont know what DAOC is and, quite frankly, I dont care, this is Star Wars, in Star Wars Rangers are special forces, just as in the real world, where special forces DONT carry big guns they are masters of concealment, booby traps, minefields and infiltration. In the real world commandos carry big guns, they dont lay minefields or traps because they would be very easily spotted carrying heavy weapons around while trying to be sneaky.
StarNick wrote:
Was lurking about...heres a repost from the Commando forum:
The perspective that Im coming from:
Rangers can set up mines. Rangers can blow up mines. Mine would thus be powerful, since these are a part of traps which helps Ranger's with their combat abilities.
Now...our equilvency in explosives are our grenades. Which really aren't that useful or damaging right now.
This is how I see it, if rangers are to get mines:
1) Commandos have the ability to chuck them and cause damage
2) Rangers have the ability to lay traps (a la Governator in Predator, think of us like the other Governator with the massive chaingun), including mines, which are static.
Go Commando-Ranger, you then have the ability to throw and lay explosives, and hence expand your explosives. But, if rangers get explosives that are far more useful and superior to our own, thats just another nail in the coffin of "Why Bother?" in regards to our profession. We don't want to have to go ranger now, like we do with ranged professions for damage, if we wanted to have good explosives...when they should already be in our profession.
Its not so much of a "they got something better", its a "we don't want to be left in the dust" type situation. Although it *would* be nice if we got Demo-charges...ie run up to a turret, lay a demo-charge then haul booty a la Han Solo when he destroyed the endor shield generator. Now THATs a commando.
There is a concern with the addition of "mines" to rangers, but for me its mostly in regards to damage. Would kinda suck if mines were far superior than to our grenades when we have a tree even titled "Explosives" in our profession.
Also, for a look on just how badly grenades are borked, Look here, its the #4 Commando Issue.Message Edited by StarNick on 09-17-2005 09:56 PM
Message Edited by StarNick on 09-17-2005 09:57 PM
Pretty much anyone with just a little faction can lay a minefield around a base...
Traps will inevitably still be the exact same damage amount as a base minefield or any commando grenade or any Bomb Droid (all practially worthless IMHO as a BH/Commando).
Pida Master Ranger Master Creature Handler
Kobak Master BH Master Commando
Your not thinking like a Ranger. To a Ranger its another line of defense. Rangers get their targets all annoyed with their traps and leading critters on a merry chase andthe critter goes"Where is that fecker, whats going on, ARGGH!", then pop up for the kill shot. Sounds cool, dont it? Now, its cooler!
LastEE wrote:
Pretty much anyone with just a little faction can lay a minefield around a base...
Traps will inevitably still be the exact same damage amount as a base minefield or any commando grenade or any Bomb Droid (all practially worthless IMHO as a BH/Commando).
Pida Master Ranger Master Creature Handler
Kobak Master BH Master Commando
tacwraith wrote:
masen read my post instead of skimming it.
Never did i say rangers were supposed to be the same as in DAOC. I compared the huge imbalance problem another class in DAOC brought into the game because of a skillset that SWG ranger is getting. It may sound really silly to you to think that putting bombs on the ground even when others can see them is overpowering but it is. And in DAOC the animist class proved just that. In PvP people quickly learned how to best exploit (there is no other word for it.. the game designers even admitted they never considered this would happen) multiple high damage static objects combined with excellent range damage and excellent utilities and defenses.
If you never played DAOC during the animist scurge let me just tell you this: imagine them being mdefender/mpowers/healer4000 jedi with access to rifleman sniper shot & T21 rifle AND on top of that... they have a minefield somewhere around them that they can practically insta-kill you with.
I mean just really think about it. If you can mix master ranger with another elite combat proffession you would pick rifleman or BH because they are the highest damage dealers in the game. as ranger you get stealth... now youre an invisible long range damage dealer. to make it worse you can place a minefield, now you are an invisible long range very high damage dealer with very high damage mine damage on top of that. and mines would be placed near you to be triggered as enemy rushes you or as the opening blow to an opponent. Either way both result in a simply massive damage output ability. One which thanks to this stealth ability will now also be mostly risk-free to the attacker.
You want stealth? Great. Keep the master scout prereq. Otherwise this game WILL turn into STEALTH wars. You are a stealther or you are a victim. DAOC had the same problem years ago and still has it with its archer and assassin classes.
Want to be able to put traps or mine-like objects, you know playing the sneaky specops sabotage guy? Great! Just not high damage because you can be paired with other very high damage long ranged proffession and seriously imbalance the game. Disruption is more the Ranger role and super-debuff traps would fit the ranger role better.
Mines and high damage explosives belong to commando. Even when paired with high damage ranged proffessions we do not provide the massive advantages ranger would (as per other abilities granted BY ranger).
After giving this part a second look, and despite the constant references to DAoC, I actually agree with a large portion of this comment. Sneaky, spec ops sabotage guy should probably not be dealing out high damage, and the super debuff traps would definitely be more appropriate. I think there should actually be a wider variety of traps. I'm going to hunt down the Outdoorsman and some other older doc's and see if I can find the good trap idea's.
I do not agree with this part. Mines have never really been a part of Commando, and this fits the para-military version of Ranger that many of us have been advocates of for some time. Again...high damage should probably be commando. Not mines specifically though.
I read the post. And you're STILL saying that commandos in SWG are the 'special forces'. Sorry. It makes no sense, I know, but that's how it is. As for the balance? That went out the window with the Jedi, long long ago.
Rangers in SWG are becoming the special forces- the only viable option for a class that really has no place in a sci-fi/sci-fantasy setting. And it makes sense, whether you like it or not. US Rangers, the Texas Rangers (a police force/border patrol). Stop thinking Aragorn and think SAS.
As for commando, yes you are VERY gimped. Especially since the one function they originally had was basically nerfed out of the game-the ATST. They were supposed to be the one with the heavy anti-vehicle firepower. Hence the acid cannon, lightning cannon, rocket launchers. They were supposed to be Arnold in Predator, or the marines in Starship Troopers. But with slow, ineffective weapons, a very foggy 'vision' behind them, and the fact that they really had no reason- much like the fantasy ranger vision- no one, me included- and I think SOE as well- is really sure WHAT their role is. I know in the old manual and hint book they're the guys who take out the turrets, but now that's a Jedi. They became the ones with the heavy guns- then that became Jedi... there really IS no role.
Instead of screaming and crying 'Nerf them!' try posting some ideas int he commando forums. I know the devs have stated interest in armed vehicles, but say no for balance reasons. Why not tie a commando revamp in with the addition of some combat vehicles? the ability to put weaponry ona speeder bike for example, like in ROTJ?
I understand full well what you're saying, but let's face it. The game is Jedi Wars right now, and BH have no chance of taking out a MDef jedi to be honest. The best BH I've seen acted like the ranger idea- using bomb droids as remote mines and waiting. Does that mean scrap the ranger idea and make it a BH revamp instead? Not really. That just means BH/Ranger will end up the most used template for a BH. Way too common, but hey, it works.
As for the whole 'excellent range, etc' quotes, yes it could be a HUGE issue. But that's what happens with a game where you can mix and match professions. a fotm always shows up sometime. I see quite well where you're coming from there- but I seriously doubt that the traps will be 'massive damage potential'. If they are, they'll be nerfed in short order, so I wouldn't really worry about that.
And the stealth breaks, unlike Jedi stealth. I suggest you read the full docs on it 
But seriously, the stealth will work like maskscent, but on players and npcs alike. Any other level 80 has a chance to detect them, and I'd bet there's a counter. A perfect example would be rifleman's counter-sniping. Flushing shot. It's adding strategy to pvp, big deal.The well-hidden assassin type always wins in a fight. Well, not always, but often enough so it seems that way. And really, how can it become 'stealth wars'? Another good counter to the ranger's stealth IS the commando. Remember, any action, including entering combat, breaks the stealth. Cone attacks anyone?
Once again, all I see here is the big crafting 'nerf' everyone sobbed over for weeks and weeks.. then when it hit live, folks found they could make perfect 100% items. Now those are rare valuables, thanks to the forum community who did the usual and whined till SOE caved and gave them what they wanted. Now the commandos are in here saying 'the mines are ours!!' and trying to back it with various rationales that range from real potential issues (but in reality, someone could learn mines from commando, stealth from ranger, and then master BH or rifles and STILL be the uber stealth monster you speak of, for about the same points) to the outright bizarre. And the rangers are helping! lol! 'I want to be a forest type! I don't want to be special forces!' Well then, go play Everquest2, if you want an elf. Rangers are finally fitting into a scifi setting, and everyone is freaking. Why don't folks chill, wait till it hits live and see what happens, THEN complain and get things nerfed? Or wait till it's on test, and give it a whirl yourself. Speak up, what you think is fair DPS? What should the chances of stealth breaking be at ? (I'd say 25-50% for your level, and scaling up or down, with grays never breaking it, and purples always). Who should be able to? Who should be best at it, if anyone? Smugglers the obvious choice, they got to keep an eye open (and Han shot first- they got intuition too).
The commando you seem to have in mind (and many) is really just a simple Ranger/Commando. And since that type can be called a Ranger or a Commando IRL, itmakes sense really. Like I said, it's not ideal, but what is? Personally I'll likely go SL/Commando/Ranger, taking trees I want for the skills I want, to be the ranger I wanted since day 1.
Another posibility is that Ranger do the "stealth" job putting the trap on their objecive (ground, ATST, etc) and Commandos activate the Tigger to make the trap explode. I mean, a Commando should have his traps, but only a Ranger can put them on the place without being detected.
I dont know if i have expressed it with the rigth words.