Ranger Archive
Thread: An Analysis of Thunderheart's Ranger Question Response
Washell wrote:
With 3 major developments going on (JTL, CB and GCW revamp) there is very little time to actually do more then the most urgent revamps/correspondent issues. While we all like to see our profession fixed first it is my opinion that the professions that were, being or are revamped were in greater need then us. They do seem to realise a lot of work on professions is in need of doing judging by the planned 10.1 publish of designer/correspondent issues.The dialogue seems very one-sided right now (something they (TH) too seems to realize with the 19 questions threads) but there just doesn't seem to be any time at the moment to implement anything. Would you really like a dev response on each of our improvement threads saying: "We'll look into it when we have some time" and then nothing seems to be done with it?
As for paying for the beta, all mmorpg's are continually being tweaked, balanced, nerfed, expanded, etc. There will always be people looking for a way to "abuse" the game mechanics in more clever ways then the devs and betatesters thought of.
As for the promises made back in august, that probably taught them to use the vague and cautious posts they do these days.Washell Olivaw, Ranger/Avenger, Eclipse
I don't disagree with you here, but I do have a concern. Actually I have several concerns, but the main one is when will there *ever* be a good time to sit back and fix what you got rather than continuing to add more on the pile?
After JTL, CB, and the GCW revmap, I'm sure there will be other acronyms that "have to be done" and will "take up all our resources". And who in he11 really thinks the CB/GCW revamp is going to be the end-all fix for all our woes?
And I definitely agree with you that those promises made so long ago are very likely the reason for the vagueness and politician-style answers we get these days. But the real question here is, why did *that* happen in the first place? What went wrong? How can you have a post like Holocron's where he basically says they have the new Ranger traps "almost ready to go" and then... nothing. Nothing for 8 long months now. What happened? They haven't even acknowledged that, AFAIK, since it was posted! Thunderheart should have at least given an eye-wink to the fact that our question to the developers was "answered" 8 months ago.
My guess? Sheer speculation but - too many issues (read professions) and not enough developers. It doesn't help when things like the "Great Crafting Nerf" actually make it to Live despite enormous community back-lash and then have to be hotfixed out in an almost "I-told-you-so" fashion.
It's true that MMORPGs are ever evolving, ever changing, always in flux, but it is most definitely not true that they are always stuck in beta mode. SWG has refined that art to an extreme and it's literally become the standard to expect it to continue indefinitely this way.
Here's a question for you: There will supposedly be 4 new professions with the JTL expansion pack. You think those professions will be complete out-of-the-box? Will need full revamps or just minor tweaks? Will get fixed before or after Ranger? Just curious.
Just kidding. Kind of. If I wasn't so burned out by frustration, I would present a realistic view of their responses which wouldn't take too long actually, as we really didn't get any lol.
Lorell wrote:
Nemo, I think it's great that you want to present an optimistic view of what is going on. You have consistently defended the devs and have painted a rosy picture on everything. So much so, in fact, that I'm beginning to wonder if you are TH's account!
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
Serraphin wrote:
The only reason the Devs get so much noise is because they have kept amny professions or communities if you will in the dark. Remember we are customers and they are in essence contractors. They sold a bill of goods and in some way these forums are a quality control. In very oversimplified terms. Now, of course for many reasons SOE must try to balance our requests and concerns with other agendas but when they appear to outright ignore them thenthey will get a "verbal throttling" initially when they post. This should be expected. If they were keeping individuals like Calculus well infromed with credible information then they would not generate so much noise when they post. If they come and legitimately deal with the noise then the noise will soften to a humm, if not then we would be to blame. Right now though the glass slipper is on there foot and they are quickly becoming the pumpkin as competetors prepare very competitive products that are NOT from SOE.
Gonna have to agree with NemoO here Serra.
Even if they kept us informed of there plans there is a significant proportion of the player population who cannot see any other way forward except thier own and because of the way this proportion acts we all get shut in the dark.
I mean you only have to look atall the"I'll stop playing & paying if you don't do this"threads to see that this is true. While there is a large proportion of destructive personalities overshadowing the rest ofus were going to get diplomacy over content I'm afraid.
However much of the frustration that is vented is because essentially the dialogue is closed or one sided. We pay essentially for an ongoing beta. If something is promised it usually never materializes or is just outright a "fib". They use people like Calculus to try and keep the natives, thats us, calm.
Riddle me this. Doyou think this is how Blizzard conducts business? No it is not, Blizzard would not have even released this game yet they would still consider it rough and unfinished. We should expect more, we are paying for it.
Uziel
The lack of information is killing them as much as the existing bugs and unbalances. I remember the beta boards and thought the information flow was great. We knew they couldn't do everything we wanted or liked, but at least they ran things past us. They chose to become tight-lipped and it was a bad decision.
To compare, the City of Heros devs are as open as time allows. When someone screams they nerfed to-hit bonuses, the dev in charge drops in to say nothing happens then gives a numerical breakdown of how it works. Someone asks a general question about how damage enhancements work and a dev pops in to do the same thing unasked. When they screw up, they admit it. They don't wait five weeks to say yeah maybe we kinda goofed when the patch goes in. They say it straight up as soon as they are aware of the problem.
The difference is as clear as night and day. SWG may have at one time been good about information but they have built a wall and as long as that wall exists they will continue to have problems.
Now this is speculation on my part, but I think the team is seriously understaffed. The game is so complicated yet they only have a few devs able to devote time to both design, balance and programming. They don't have the time to handle the game, much less the players. Until such time that they can get more staff or re-integrate the programming teams to reduce the workload, nothing will be solved.
Seiryuu wrote:
This information control is not fun for anyone. But it HAS to be there with the current boards. The Devs don't have a choice in the matter.
The lack of information is killing them as much as the existing bugs and unbalances. I remember the beta boards and thought the information flow was great. We knew they couldn't do everything we wanted or liked, but at least they ran things past us. They chose to become tight-lipped and it was a bad decision.
To compare, the City of Heros devs are as open as time allows. When someone screams they nerfed to-hit bonuses, the dev in charge drops in to say nothing happens then gives a numerical breakdown of how it works. Someone asks a general question about how damage enhancements work and a dev pops in to do the same thing unasked. When they screw up, they admit it. They don't wait five weeks to say yeah maybe we kinda goofed when the patch goes in. They say it straight up as soon as they are aware of the problem.
The difference is as clear as night and day. SWG may have at one time been good about information but they have built a wall and as long as that wall exists they will continue to have problems.
Now this is speculation on my part, but I think the team is seriously understaffed. The game is so complicated yet they only have a few devs able to devote time to both design, balance and programming. They don't have the time to handle the game, much less the players. Until such time that they can get more staff or re-integrate the programming teams to reduce the workload, nothing will be solved.
I don't think it's a lack of space but rather a division of labor. They have lots of people working on lots of stuff. Those people are not at all responsible with dealing with the players on the forums. The people who know what is going with the code on are working on the code. They don't necessarily have the time to answer all that stuff. Knowing enough information to do what you say is given in City of Heros isnot easy, especially for over 30 different professions. Anyone who knows the information that well is almost certainly locked in a room programming it. And the Devs here have a policy against giving out specific info like that because they want players to have the chance of working it out themselves. That might not be the best approach but it is their stated one. I would guess that Cities of Heros like information passing goes on in the Correspondent forum. But there is a wall between us and that board. Is it right? I don't know. But it seems to work. If something that would really hurt Ranger or Scout was posted on that board, I'm POSITIVE that Delta and Calc would be all over it.
As for "mistakes" the Devs have made, I don't think they were necessarily mistakes. I know I get annoyed seeing people walking around in full 90% composite armor with uber weapons. The crafting change would have fixed that to an extent. But it put a lot of stress on the crafters to keep up any sort of quality. And so the crafters complained. And the people wanting uber quality goods complained. Who was really right?
As for the information flow, I don't know how a different approach would work. The SWG Devs have never really given information about numbers and such. They used to be more open with the ideas they were working on but that has put them in a lot of trouble in the past. I don't know enough information about City of Heros to comment but I do know that I have been happy with most of the work the Devs have done on this game. I'm fairly certain a lot of that is from the way the Correspondent system works. It does end up keeping a lot of us from knowing what is going on but I'm fairly certain we can trust the Correspondents to voice our views. While it might be nice to have written confirmation that the Devs are looking through some of our posts, I'm sure they get the most important information anyway.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
Delta and Calc would be all over what? They are powerless to do anything and yes there is a huge wall between the community and the devs. As long as they are busy adding new stuff they achieve the effect of the tail wagging the dog. They should fix the problems and then add to it.
Nemo0 wrote:
Seiryuu wrote:
This information control is not fun for anyone. But it HAS to be there with the current boards. The Devs don't have a choice in the matter.
The lack of information is killing them as much as the existing bugs and unbalances. I remember the beta boards and thought the information flow was great. We knew they couldn't do everything we wanted or liked, but at least they ran things past us. They chose to become tight-lipped and it was a bad decision.
To compare, the City of Heros devs are as open as time allows. When someone screams they nerfed to-hit bonuses, the dev in charge drops in to say nothing happens then gives a numerical breakdown of how it works. Someone asks a general question about how damage enhancements work and a dev pops in to do the same thing unasked. When they screw up, they admit it. They don't wait five weeks to say yeah maybe we kinda goofed when the patch goes in. They say it straight up as soon as they are aware of the problem.
The difference is as clear as night and day. SWG may have at one time been good about information but they have built a wall and as long as that wall exists they will continue to have problems.
Now this is speculation on my part, but I think the team is seriously understaffed. The game is so complicated yet they only have a few devs able to devote time to both design, balance and programming. They don't have the time to handle the game, much less the players. Until such time that they can get more staff or re-integrate the programming teams to reduce the workload, nothing will be solved.
I don't think it's a lack of space but rather a division of labor. They have lots of people working on lots of stuff. Those people are not at all responsible with dealing with the players on the forums. The people who know what is going with the code on are working on the code. They don't necessarily have the time to answer all that stuff. Knowing enough information to do what you say is given in City of Heros isnot easy, especially for over 30 different professions. Anyone who knows the information that well is almost certainly locked in a room programming it. And the Devs here have a policy against giving out specific info like that because they want players to have the chance of working it out themselves. That might not be the best approach but it is their stated one. I would guess that Cities of Heros like information passing goes on in the Correspondent forum. But there is a wall between us and that board. Is it right? I don't know. But it seems to work. If something that would really hurt Ranger or Scout was posted on that board, I'm POSITIVE that Delta and Calc would be all over it.
As for "mistakes" the Devs have made, I don't think they were necessarily mistakes. I know I get annoyed seeing people walking around in full 90% composite armor with uber weapons. The crafting change would have fixed that to an extent. But it put a lot of stress on the crafters to keep up any sort of quality. And so the crafters complained. And the people wanting uber quality goods complained. Who was really right?
As for the information flow, I don't know how a different approach would work. The SWG Devs have never really given information about numbers and such. They used to be more open with the ideas they were working on but that has put them in a lot of trouble in the past. I don't know enough information about City of Heros to comment but I do know that I have been happy with most of the work the Devs have done on this game. I'm fairly certain a lot of that is from the way the Correspondent system works. It does end up keeping a lot of us from knowing what is going on but I'm fairly certain we can trust the Correspondents to voice our views. While it might be nice to have written confirmation that the Devs are looking through some of our posts, I'm sure they get the most important information anyway.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
DND_Cas wrote:
Exceptn if they didn't add more stuff alot of people would leave.
This is commonly refered to as a balencing act. Be aware that new stuff needs to happen at the same time as fixes in any mmo otherwise people will get bored. Chastising them for doing this is pointless because it needs to happen.
If it is a balancing act then it is way out of balance.
Although I remain scepitcal about what changes we are likely to see this year or the beginning of next, as we still desperately need a re-vamp. TH's response seems to be the most positive Dev posting we have seen in some time.
Any improvement in combat effectiveness, even minor, will hopefully help compliment the additional combat profession that most rangers take and potentially could make harvesting a little easier.
Also, the issues regarding the usefulness of our skills appeared to be accepted. OK it doesn't seem like the Devs have decided how these should be redressed. But if we got some minor combat improvements - or trapping made more effective -) - and say harvesting rates and camps got some even minor interim loving as part of the combat revamp that would go along away towards restoring my faith.
CAUTIOUSLY optimistic.
Any significant effort to respond would be welcomed if it was maintained. We have heard tale of improvements many times and the information flow only decreases with time. Until that becomes a given, people will always jump over any dev comment because that is the only scrap we're given.
Even you did it, Nemo. Sure you put a positive spin on it, but you deconstructed TH's post sentance by sentance. It shows you're trying to get that scrap of info, the hidden tidbit, as badly as the rest of us.
More communication is needed.