Ranger Archive
Thread: The Conceal Question...
Perhaps we're taking the wrong approach on this. We have this idea of "conceal" and it seems to get us thinking toward invisibility/masking and such. It seems that TH's post, while not coming right out and saying it, shows little inclination toward going in that direction at all. Having seen what can happen w/invis in a PvP environ in DAoC, I certainly understand their reluctance.
So, NRaas, what was your goal/objective with this skill? For recon purposes? Get close enough to monitor activities without discovery? Was it to put us in a spot to assassinate someone? Be able to get in position and use some shot/special to get excess damage in? A combination of the two?
There may be other ways to accomplish that sort of thing. Something that doesn't require our physical presence to accomplish. For example, EQ had an enchanter spell called "bind sight." Using that as a model, we could have something that allows you to:
- deploy a small droid with a video camera.. like the "bind sight" spell, you "see" what the droid sees. You drive the droid to the area where you want to take a peek. Have it with a large range of control and runs at burst run speed.
- attach a module to a pet (supplied by a CH) that does the same sort of thing.
- a "trap" that you drop in an area that acts as a motion detector, configurable for either faction critters or NPCs. When tripped, you get a message informing you that it has detected something
Perhaps instead of invisibility, you push the limit the other direction. Deploy a "drone" that shows up on radar just like you do. Numerous drones create numerous targets around your character. "Security by obscurity." Couple it with a hefty evade bonus and when you run into someone, if they try to "tab" to target you, they are just as likely to target a drone. The more drones, the less likelihood that they target you. All the while, you're free to dump your specials. Even if they manage to get you targeted, you have some timered evade skill that makes you hard to hit. Want to stick to the creature theme? Then do the same thing with baby critters. Regardless of form, they have no attack capability and little defense. Their sole purpose is to act as a screen. Could also be used for creating diversions that draw your PvP foes away.
Granted.. fairly lame ideas, but my point is that there may be more than one way to skin the proverbial cat. The important thing is to identify the result you want, and then invent the means to accomplish it. Even doing something as simple as giving the ability a different name can help. If you called the skill "Evasion" instead of "Conceal" then the "to-hit" debuff mentioned looks appropriate.
Any of these things help in getting people to think "outside the box."
As I mentioned in the Outdoorsman thread, I will mention here.
(Note I got this idea from someone else , so I dont take credit for it)
Have conceal work the way it is, work against NPC's AND have it turn us yellow in the radar. This will work for PvP.
My reasoning:
- We will blend in with creatures.
- In town , it will become obvious we are around because few creatures roam into cities, so people can TAB to us. Thats fine , because our skills are supposed to work better in the wild, not in town.
-In the wild though, we will/may blend in with the other wild creatures. During a PvP battle, surrounded by reds and maybe some yellows, they arent going to realize one of those yellows is a ranger ( make it a Master!) so we can get a sneak.
This way we dont go off the radar, dont go off the screen, but gives us an edge in PvP'ing out in the wilderness, without making us Uber- or game breaking. And it is logical. Camo is to blend into the wildnerness. That is exactly what we are doing this way.
"A ranger has to have a weapon anyway right? What other options are there, a Ranger Artisan? A Ranger CH? More overpowering?"
But that is just the point. In SWG, a Ranger with invisibility could be anything they want to be. My example would bea TK-Ranger who sneaks up to his opponent and pummels them before their opponents could react.
In a class based system, the only option for the class with inivisibility is to be.... the class with invisibility. The developers can limit the combat effectiveness of that class so that it is not overpowering.
"So, NRaas, what was your goal/objective with this skill?"
That is a good question.
Since we are based on a profession called Scout, it seems logical to use it for recon.
But I don't know what you all expect from the skill.
So... What do you all expect from the skill?
I want to add this in from the Outdoorsman thread, adding to my above post:
Eklectrick wrote:
Svengali666 wrote:
Ok so not invisibility but maybe turning us into Yellow dots like noticed was mentioned somewhere, thus blending in with nature ( only creatures are yellow)
Creatures and NPC's or anything that is attackable. I thought of this too, but don't you think any player who sees a yellow dotcoming their way will be very suspicious of it? as it is now, all MOBs move in a very predictable fasion, they move slowly and very little over short distances. Changing color would be a cool ability, but IMO not nearly as effective as a negative to-hit mod with abilities that play off the skill.
yea in town it would be noticeable immediately. But maybe not in the wild when there are dots all over your screen. Maybe that yellow dot making its way towards you would be less of interest than the reds everywhere else.
besides if your outright running at the enemy, you cant expect to be camo'd from his/her view can you? of course you would have to be slower and sneaky about it. probably prone even. Because wouldnt that be how you hunt live game in RL? Just because your wearing a ghille suit you dont come barrelling down on the target! hehe
Does that help clear up confusion so far?
"At master ranger, one could reapply maskscent immediately after it breaks with no timer delay (since Master Ranger no longer needs scout xp, this is reasonable)."
Ok... I ask then, what the risk for the reward? Currently there is a gap of vunerability that a player must overcome before being able to scent up again.What other risks are involved with maskscent to compensate for this gain?
"At Novice Ranger, maskscent should be able to hide the Ranger from humanoid npc's and creatures, but not other players."
What occurs when a player encounters a Pet? Does the pet see through the effect because his master can? Or does something else occur?
"At Novice Ranger, maskscent can be applied to other players at the cost of a 'Maskscent kit'. "
That is an interesting idea, definitely a better idea than the conceal-maskscent combo set currently in the proposal.
"As the Ranger's conceal mod gets larger, it becomes less likely that tracking droids (if player bounties are implemented) and other Rangers using track or areatrack can detect your location. "
Ah. I forgot about that one.
"A'Leave false trail' ability"
That is most interesting.
"Add the maskscent skill mod back into Ranger, adding onto the the mod from scout. "
Ok. This would be done in such a way as to make maskscent better than Scout, but leaving the Master Scout chance of success the same. I like that.
ohhhhh I like this. A way for both sides to win. yes. make maskscent for rangers do what people think /conceal should do now. make /conceal more like what NRaas has proposed. Very good. may need some tweaking and balancing but overall it makes perfect sense.
Klif_Hangar wrote:
Machs wrote:
The important thing is to identify the result you want, and then invent the means to accomplish it.
This is an excellent suggestion Machs, and I followed it to arrive at the following conclusions:
Basically, just as Tracking introduces skills unique to the Ranger profession (Track and areatrack) and also provides bonuses that are an extension of Scout skills (hunting bonuses, creature knowledge, etc), I feel the Wayfaring line should both provide an extension of Scout skills (terrain negotiation going up, an enhanced maskscent ability, etc) while also providing new skills as well. In my opinion, those new skills should be oriented around the idea of stealthily exploring and moving in the wild.
With this in mind, here are the things I would like to see the Wayfaring line provide (the results):
**snip**
Ok, that's the long version.
Here's theshort version:
- Change /conceal so it is likeNRaas' current Outdoorsman vision.
- Implement the /hide ability as described in NRaas' current vision.
- Add the maskscent skill mod back into Ranger, adding onto the the mod from scout.
- Make the enhanced, Ranger level maskscent funtion like the current conceal, with some changes, such as hiding from npc's and creatures and only needing a crafted kit to maskscent others.
This allows Rangers to have a skill that is useful against npc's, creatures, and other players in pvp (new conceal skill as a negative to-hit modifier and new hide skill) and also allows Rangers to benefit from an ability that works like maskscent(in that it lets you avoid combat altogether) which works against npc's and creatures only.
These changes work if you consider the Wayfaring line as primarily a stealth-focused skill line. The main benefits of the line are oriented toward stealth, so multiple versions of stealth skills are allowed. Combat concealment that makes it hard to see (and thus hit) you, a version of concealment that hides you from enemylike maskscent does, and a hide ability that allows you to disappear from the screen as long as you don't move and don't attack - all of these skills should be granted to a master ofstealth in the wilderness.
How does the idea of making wayfaring revolve around stealth fit into the outdoorsman vision of rangers? A scout has learned the basic exploration skills that allow him to traverseand exploreskillfully. The scout has gone almost as far as one can go in terms of terrain negotation skills. While a Ranger improves upon these skills somewhat (the explanation for improved crawl speed, mount terrain negotiation, and swim speed), the main thing the Ranger learns to do exploration-wise is to explore without revealing himself. He learns to walk silently, not making any noise. He hones these skills to help him survive in the wild, where being detected by an aggressive creature or npc when he is all alone may cause him to be attacked and possibly killed.
Anyway, I've once again managed to ramble on, so I'll close by saying I think Rangers should get both an enhanced maskscent AND a stealth ability that works in pvp and pve in the same way. Thanks for reading.
"make /conceal more like what NRaas has proposed. Very good. may need some tweaking and balancing but overall it makes perfect sense. "
Aye... I am rewriting the necessary portions tonight. 
Though I would like a solution on what Pets would do regarding /maskscent.
NRaas wrote:
"make /conceal more like what NRaas has proposed. Very good. may need some tweaking and balancing but overall it makes perfect sense. "
Aye... I am rewriting the necessary portions tonight.
Though I would like a solution on what Pets would do regarding /maskscent.
As far as I'm concerned, and how I envisioned it, the enhanced /maskscent would not work in any kind of pvp. Its purpose would be for pve only, and should satisfy those who want conceal to be an enhanced maskscent that works against humanoids.
The new /conceal (the negative to-hit modifier) would be for pvp and pve. It would work on all creatures/npc's/opponent players in the same way, as you described in the vision document. This would satisfy those who want a pvp advantage and those who do not want Rangers to just be 'uber scouts'.
This is of course just my opinion. Thanks.
"the enhanced /maskscent would not work in any kind of pvp."
So, Pets can see through a players maskscent because their masters direct them to the target.
Works with me.
NRaas wrote:
"make /conceal more like what NRaas has proposed. Very good. may need some tweaking and balancing but overall it makes perfect sense. "
Aye... I am rewriting the necessary portions tonight.
Though I would like a solution on what Pets would do regarding /maskscent.
well, what does a creature in the wild do as a result of using maskscent. Does it ignore you because you smell like something non threatening, or does it ignore you because it doesn't know you are there. If it doesn't detect you as a threat, then maskscent wouldn't have an effect on pets because the handlers order would identify you as a threat. If it can't detect you, then it should confuse the pet as I have proposed before. "sick em" the handler says, but the creature pauses, trying to figure out what it is his master wants him to sick. the creature scans the battle field and sees something . . . is that it . . . oh, ok I'll attack that then.
Something to consider also is the /maskscent /conceal combo and it's effects on pets. Maybe maskscent alone does nothing against pets, but /maskscent /conceal has the effect described above. maybe it has more of an effect like the pet won't attack until one /maskscentor /conceal is broken by the handler "tagging" you with any attack.
"Something to consider also is the /maskscent /conceal combo and it's effects on pets. Maybe maskscent alone does nothing against pets, but /maskscent /conceal has the effect described above"
I would go with this one.
I do like Klif_Hangar's approach to seperating out the PvP portion and leaving it solely with /conceal, it sounds cleaner. So if Pets are to be affected, it would need to be while under /conceal and /maskscent combined.
My comments are in light blue. Thanks for your consideration.
NRaas wrote:
"At master ranger, one could reapply maskscent immediately after it breaks with no timer delay (since Master Ranger no longer needs scout xp, this is reasonable)."
Ok... I ask then, what the risk for the reward? Currently there is a gap of vunerability that a player must overcome before being able to scent up again.What other risks are involved with maskscent to compensate for this gain?
Reasonable enough. Instead of the timer dropping to 0, just make it drop lower than what it currently does (I think it stops at 15 second delay for master scout. Perhaps make a master ranger have a delay of 5 seconds). I mean, we are supposed to be the masters of stealth in my proposal, so we should be really good at hiding ourselves and recovering if we are noticed.
"At Novice Ranger, maskscent should be able to hide the Ranger from humanoid npc's and creatures, but not other players."
What occurs when a player encounters a Pet? Does the pet see through the effect because his master can? Or does something else occur?
Please see my last post about this. Basically, maskscent would not affect pets at all. The new conceal (the negative to-hit modifier) would handle all forms of pvp, including pets.
"At Novice Ranger, maskscent can be applied to other players at the cost of a 'Maskscent kit'. "
That is an interesting idea, definitely a better idea than the conceal-maskscent combo set currently in the proposal.
I think so too (of course I do :smileytongue
"As the Ranger's conceal mod gets larger, it becomes less likely that tracking droids (if player bounties are implemented) and other Rangers using track or areatrack can detect your location. "
Ah. I forgot about that one.
So did I until I started thinking about the results I wanted. Thanks again for that suggestion Machs.
"A'Leave false trail' ability"
That is most interesting.
Thanks. I'm sure it needs a lot of work though to make it practical.
"Add the maskscent skill mod back into Ranger, adding onto the the mod from scout. "
Ok. This would be done in such a way as to make maskscent better than Scout, but leaving the Master Scout chance of success the same. I like that.
Me too.
