Ranger Archive
Thread: STEALTH The post you have all been waiting for (or dreading) ...
Fred_Skinner wrote:
BabyRancor wrote:
I have given this thought - and I've come to the same conclusion you have, stealth can only come from complete denial of information to the client. I'd wager that building in encryption at this point would be really complex, and probably lead to crippling lag as the packets are decoded on the client (lag is bad enough already with clear transmissions in some cases).
There is one concern that I've yet been able to solve though. We know that there is a lag from client to client that causes avatars to appear in positions different than the server registers them at. This lag can cause successful melee attacks to happen where the victim registers the attacker at 50m or more.
If stealth were employed in the fashion you suggest, would it not be open to taking advantage of this problem?
For example:
I drop prone at 128m, /conceal and start crawling in. My target's client now no longer has any information on where I am, but the server does. At 63m I pop up and hit a couple of strafe shots, now there is a period where I am effectively invisable as my position is translated to the client and that information rendered. I'm of course moving by that point, so the server has to keep updating and the client is lagging behind my actual position. I see it as very possible that I could pop up, strafe someone and burst-run out of visual range before their client even registers my position. The victim therefore couldn't attack and I could /conceal again and repeat as much as I wanted.
Not possible. The server is given the command to attack and you have to wait on the server to acknowledge this. Try poping a lair with attack/peace. You do not know from one second to the next the actual timing that this will work. Remember: once seen, always seen until you reset to the proper conditions. If you do this too fast NOTHING happens, no attack. If you get the attack off the target sees you now, and is autoattacking HE has to peace as well to get you out of combat. I doubt he would co-operate in this.
Also: you can't burst run from 64 to 128m fast enough, they are going to find you. I have not seen a condition, other then slower modem users, where the time it takes for you to run 64m more after the "sniping". I would hold a timer here, however, for about 10 seconds so that if you stop and turn around they can close on you and keep you "visual".
Good point, the single character scenario is not a problem. <thinks> What about multiple players, say a group of five each popping up and engaging one after the other. Would it be too overpowered?
On the flip side, the only advantage a ranged person has against melee is just that - range. If I could crawl in, pop up and burst run in to a target I could probably be there and attacking before they even register my presence on their client. Same situation for combat medics (the ultimate first strike weapon) - it's the same sort of situation encountered with GTEF (unattackable players vs vulnerable targets).
Best case, even if the exploits were not as bad as I fear, the Ranger class would become the home of griefers and uber PvP players. These boards would look like the TKA boards and the GCW boards, and the "hunter" type Rangers would be even fewer and further between.
This is why we keep the PC stealth at master. You can't "Uber template" very well with 110 skill points. Like in my Mechwarrior example: sacrifice combat for stealth.
I didn't take time to run the numbers the first time - but my first concern of a stealth combat medic is not possible if Master Ranger is required for stealth. That's a good thing
You can still have a Master TKA or a Master Rifleman though and keep Master Ranger. It would definately accomplish the goal of making Ranger a viable PvP addition, but it wouldn't be the Ranger part of the equation that does it - it would be the combination of combat skills with Ranger for stealth alone.
I personally think that Ranger should remain one of the only PvE oriented classes, and give us/ them (former Ranger here) some more specific (and relevant) content:
But we still suck here, and making us able to single-handedly wrestle Krayts is not going to go well with the rest of the community.
I'm thinking of /track, which would cause demand for Rangers to go through the roof as you could now get hunting content "on-demand" and not waste hours wandering around the landscape hoping for a spawn.
I thought that went over like a lead ballon last time the devs responded ... or did I remember that different? It's a similar response to the "let me pick my own mission" tread... devs don't like this ether. Dunno, I can pretty much find what I want as is and "generating" resource on demand is tinkering with the econimy in ways akin to duping credits.
This is my own personal bugbear - I really dislike the hours of fruitless wandering inherent to hunting on my server. Krayts are really really rare on Sunrunner compared to other servers, and the recient troubles with random spawns on Lok and other planets makes big game hunting a decidedly non-casual event.
I'm thinking of trophy loot only available to rangers, everyone would want a rancor head to hang on their wall.
I'm thinking of factional missions only given to Rangers that result in finding a lost convoy, or a crashed ship, or a secret meeting place. From these missions alone should come the vast majority of the new schematics that the Dev's want in the game. Wookiee armour getting put in game? Armoursmiths now just seem to wake up with the knowledge of how to make this stuff. Instead, Rangers can take missions that send them to given planet, makes them track to a specific location (maybe spawn could be located via a similar interface as the resource survey window), and grants a brand new schematic upon completion that can now be sold to the highest bidder.
While I like this, I don't think the devs will allow just us to have access to new schematics and I KNOW the rest of the community would not agree. I'm not sure we can make that fly.
Probably not - but a fellow can dream can't he
In the final analysis I really do like the idea Ranger Fred, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate to make sure the Rangers have a really solid arguement to put forward to the Devs.
Perhaps in addition to the stealth skill we could incorporate a Ranger-specific weapon that will do a specific attack. Or perhaps just the specific attack without the Ranger weapon (as I'm not sure how well that concept was recieved). That way there is no synergy (and possible exploit) with other combat abilities.
Something like this would mean that stealth is more of a precurser to a powerful attack, but no other type of attack can be made from a stealth state. Rangers would then become either the first troops to attack or a special forces group that picks off critical people in the midst of a PvP battle (docs, combat medics, squad leaders if they're ever fixed).
OK - thought experiment:
I've got a team of six MRM/ MR attacking a small group of opposing faction.
Allowing for the moment that everyone makes it past the perception checks (which I assume goes out as far as vision allows?) we now have 6 fellows all within 60m (edit) of the target group.
Two of use pop up and fire off headshot3 at the same target. I'm going to guess that we could each get off three shots before everything catches up and the target gets some sort of visual feedback that he's under attack. I don't PvP much at all, but I'm thinking that 6x HS3 is enough to drop anyone under normal circumstances.
In this case our two attackers have been "seen" and cannot drop back into conceal right? So they high-tail it out of range (after a quick snipershot), trying to get beyond visual range so that they can reconceal. At this point they won't be in combat with the original target (as it's dead) and may not be engaged by the other enemies depending on lag and their alertness. If they get out of visual range before they are targetted and engaged then they are free to come back in right?
So then the next pair of concealed rangers does the same thing and drops someone else, and the final pair a third. How long does the "seen" state last, when could the riflemen drop back into stealth mode provided they aren't engaged (let's say there are small groups of three players scattered about a base or something).
Would the notion of two players (admittedly using excellent tactics and coordination) being able to kill a single player without any chance of retaliation be viewed as too much?
All that said - it would give me a rush to be part of the attacking group
Message Edited by BabyRancor on 03-30-2004 01:04 PM
BabyRancor wrote:
OK - thought experiment:
I've got a team of six MRM/ MR attacking a small group of opposing faction.
Allowing for the moment that everyone makes it past the perception checks (which I assume goes out as far as vision allows?) we now have 6 fellows all within 60m (edit) of the target group.
Two of use pop up and fire off headshot3 at the same target. I'm going to guess that we could each get off three shots before everything catches up and the target gets some sort of visual feedback that he's under attack. I don't PvP much at all, but I'm thinking that 6x HS3 is enough to drop anyone under normal circumstances.
In this case our two attackers have been "seen" and cannot drop back into conceal right? So they high-tail it out of range (after a quick snipershot), trying to get beyond visual range so that they can reconceal. At this point they won't be in combat with the original target (as it's dead) and may not be engaged by the other enemies depending on lag and their alertness. If they get out of visual range before they are targetted and engaged then they are free to come back in right?
So then the next pair of concealed rangers does the same thing and drops someone else, and the final pair a third. How long does the "seen" state last, when could the riflemen drop back into stealth mode provided they aren't engaged (let's say there are small groups of three players scattered about a base or something).
Would the notion of two players (admittedly using excellent tactics and coordination) being able to kill a single player without any chance of retaliation be viewed as too much?
All that said - it would give me a rush to be part of the attacking group
Message Edited by BabyRancor on 03-30-2004 01:04 PM
I'd say that a combat delay would get rid of this problem (i.e. 5 or 10 seconds between concealment ending and being able to shoot). I'd love the chance to shoot first but it is very likely to be turned down as a possible exploit. But, even with a delay, this would allow for easy scouting of the enemy position. And allow groups to hide a bit of their strength to lure another group into a much harder battle than they expect. And a bit of uncertainty might be enough to win the fight.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
Message Edited by PithrenDarkstar on 03-30-2004 05:35 PM
PithrenDarkstar wrote:
With a delay before combat, you basically remove the element of surprise from Conceal. even 10 seconds is enough for your target to escape when you pop up out of nowhere.
I'd prefer no delay. But that could lead to griefing. As it is, I'd be happy to have the skill to just scout out the defenses. I'd prefer to be able to attack right away but I can see the Devs throwing it out right away because of that ability. Although one can argue that Overts attacking TEF'd players have that advantage right now. So maybe we can work it in.
Lythender Nirou
Master Ranger/Master Rifleman
Eclipse Server
I like it. Make it the main reason to get Master Ranger, a skill you get only at Master, useable only by Master Rangers.
For that matter, toss in the Ghillie suit too. At master we get the schematics for a ghillie, which would enable your skill.
Give us something, some reason, to be a Master.
wtg Fred
JB
Not sure if this goes along with your idea of Ranger or not, but I always thought ranger would make an excellent prerequisite skill needed for an advancedrifleman profession. Normal riflemen would be what most would like their profession to be: a heavy gunner, while a Ranger/Rifleman would gain abilities (if he had both skills) to become: a sniper.
Things like blending into the radar (making your radar dot purple to everyone, so people can't tell your the enemy) or disappear (if technically possible - I know theres issues with this concerning 3rd party progs)
Also give master rangers perhaps a certification for a special sniper rifle & range mods to use it past 60m.
Ability to camo yourself, so as long as your not moving...you appear as a bush or some other local plant.
Glum_Moonfist wrote:
Not sure if this goes along with your idea of Ranger or not, but I always thought ranger would make an excellent prerequisite skill needed for an advancedrifleman profession. Normal riflemen would be what most would like their profession to be: a heavy gunner, while a Ranger/Rifleman would gain abilities (if he had both skills) to become: a sniper.
Things like blending into the radar (making your radar dot purple to everyone, so people can't tell your the enemy) or disappear (if technically possible - I know theres issues with this concerning 3rd party progs)
Also give master rangers perhaps a certification for a special sniper rifle & range mods to use it past 60m.
Ability to camo yourself, so as long as your not moving...you appear as a bush or some other local plant.
Its the Elite-Elite profession idea there.....They might do it eventualy.....But probably not for atleast a year or more =/
I would like to see Elite-Elite Classes for ranger, commando, Cheff, Smuggler, BRAWLER....hell any Elite Elite Would be Awesome....But not gonna happen for a LONG time unfortunatly
For game balance reasons, it would need to be:
1. Self-only (cant see Devs agreeing to entire units of "invisible" PCs)
2. Possibly with some form of detection system, e.g. on Factional basis.
3. The idea of a 20 second timer after becoming "visible" before being able to initiate combat seems a good balancing issue. Is this easy to programme?
4. Would need to be a Master Ranger skill to prevent abuse by dabblers. Allowing the rest of the tree to enable /conceal to work as it currently does.
That said, have the Devs already closed off the idea of any PvP "invisibility"? Would /Traklair (enabling a specified lair to be generated be a Master level ability that we are more likely to have approved)?
"Good point, the single character scenario is not a problem. <thinks> What about multiple players, say a group of five each popping up and engaging one after the other. Would it be too overpowered?"
First there is a chance that someone will be detected going in, you have to prepare for that. If there is an SL in the group everyone will see you comming in if one does. Second when you attack, they all see you anyway. You would have to be lucky enough to get all 5 in and undetected. The tweaking to alertness can make this rare, common or something in between. One thing it WILL do, is make PvP interesting again, nothing is garenteed. Especially if you have to crawl to maintain the stealth. While I do admit that this does favor ranged professions, it's not exclusive to them. It also makes SL pretty important as well.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. We've been told how the dev;s feel though, which is my main concern. I would love to see stealth implemented. The idea for having it at Master Ranger is great. I just wonder if there isn't something more we can do to prevent power pvp'ers, like maybe making Master Ranger cost a couple of points more. I'm Master Ranger Ranger/Master Rifleman and have 4 points left. If Master levels cost 2 or 3 points rather than just 1 it could help, but I'm just thinking out loud.
I have long been a proponent of a more para-military Ranger, and I think this would go a loooong way to helping us with that. Great work Fred. I look forward to hearing what the responses are to Calc's posting this.
/salute Fred
Regards,