Ranger Archive
Thread: Question to Devs about Grouping & Harvesting
JBMat wrote:
The original argument was all wet to start with.
JB
The original argument was in light of the CU. You didnt touch that issueat all, but only dealt with the current system. Under the current combat system, theres no real problem (as was stated before, theres the possibility to gain 20% even while grouped). But, when it's going to take you longer to take out that lair with a friend than it does now without, you might be missing that extra 40%, or at least most of us Rangers will be.
Keep in mind that when the CHs were 'fixed' they were told that they simply got their revamp earlier than everyone else. That implies that everyone will be on a similair fighting level as CHs are currently. Of course other things will change as well, but thats the best insight I've seen as far as how the CU will practically look. As a former MCH, I can tell you, its not a fun combat level. Mokk missions took 20-30 minutes when I was MCH/Fencer 0/4/0/4 with buffs and armor. And thats just looking at the actual combat portion of the mission.... They are also changing armor and buffs, and I can pretty much guarantee they arent making them more effective. This will make any high end creature even harder to kill and harvest.
Getting Dathomirian Carni meat will be next to impossible without a friend. High end "solo" missions wont be soloable. What does this mean? We are almost always going to have to hunt in groups and thus suffer the 40% reduction, we wont be able to mission hop like we can now, and if we head to rancor valley, more than two agros will probably mean instant death. Thus, we are loosing time even if we hunt with a friend. Yes, it will be quicker than solo-ing still, but its still going to take two or more people to do what one did before. Considering the meat shortages we are having now, it is not going to be pretty.
Your argument basically is that if the system doesnt change, its fair. But, its precisely because the harvesting system isnt changing, while the means of killing the harvests are, that is causing the problem. If it was a linear equation, you can kill at the same rate thus its only fair to harvest at the same rate, then everything you said would be right on the money. But that was the problem the original poster mentioned that you apparantly didnt see: Time. We arent going to be able to kill things as quickly, so we'll have that in addition to the harvesting reduction and that simply means less meat, which means inflation. Some meats are selling for 200cpu on my server and that is way too much for meat, especially when I have to use 20k of it to make something useful, which chefs will only buy for 1.5mil (when I would spend 4mil on meat???).
This effects a huge range of things. If the prices for meat cointinue to go up, either the BE components for foods will over double in price or they simply wont be made. This means chefs are going to have to either not make BE food (there goes havla, bivoli, canape, brandy, etc...) or they are going to have to sell a crate of brandy, for example, for 100k more just to break even.
In short, get rid of the penalty. At this point its meaningless. Even if nothing changes with the CU I still think it would be meaningless.
Message Edited by Vorpaks on 11-21-2004 02:19 PM
If a 20% bonus for grouping is not enough, how much more do you feel you deserve just for grouping as opposed to solo-ing?
DaveG wrote:The other assumptions in some calculations is that if some people harvest in a group, that there will be one person at the end of the hunt getting all the resources. This should not be assumed.I understand the argument of "flooding the marke", 40% is a significant chunk. Therefore I'd propose that the group penalty is placed on a sliding scale, depending on your own harvesting skill. The closer you are to master, the less you are penalised. This would be a reasonable reward to rangers if group penalties remain.
Another assumption seems to be that everyone in a group is Master Ranger / Master Weapons.
I used to take groups of novices out, get them part of the way to being started on the right path and try and knock some of the bad habits out of their heads before they get too well wedged in there.
Else I go out in small groups with a mixed bunch of folk. Y'know, for 'fun'?
Ah well, it's all changing anyhow, so, just going to wait and see.
Almagill wrote:
DaveG wrote:
The other assumptions in some calculations is that if some people harvest in a group, that there will be one person at the end of the hunt getting all the resources. This should not be assumed.
I understand the argument of "flooding the marke", 40% is a significant chunk. Therefore I'd propose that the group penalty is placed on a sliding scale, depending on your own harvesting skill. The closer you are to master, the less you are penalised. This would be a reasonable reward to rangers if group penalties remain.
Another assumption seems to be that everyone in a group is Master Ranger / Master Weapons.
I used to take groups of novices out, get them part of the way to being started on the right path and try and knock some of the bad habits out of their heads before they get too well wedged in there.
Else I go out in small groups with a mixed bunch of folk. Y'know, for 'fun'?
Ah well, it's all changing anyhow, so, just going to wait and see.
/agree.
The 20% boost, is a theoretical max in very specific circumstances. The majority of circumstances lead to a penalty.
JascoSmlee wrote:Hmm, my brief thoughts on the matter. Simply remove the penalty *if* the group includes a Ranger. Currently I always prefer to hunt solo when hunting for cash due to the penalty. I couldn't care less about what I can/cannot solo, I simply can't understand why we are penalised for grouping when we should be encouraged to do so. I think Landorian hit the nail on the head.
You harvest 20% less right now as a result of solo-ing and will continue to harvest 20% less because the reward for grouping is not high enough?
Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 11-22-2004 03:27 PM
pkirk25 wrote:
If you group, you get a minimum increase of 20% in your harvest.
If a 20% bonus for grouping is not enough, how much more do you feel you deserve just for grouping as opposed to solo-ing?
You're assuming the group is a minimum of two people with both people harvesting, and that the amount harvested is going to be combined as one and sold by one person. (In other words, someone is harvesting and gives away the amount they harvested for free. Who does this??)
Realistically, a group of two or more people hunting/harvesting are going to be grouping together so they can kill faster or more efficiently. However, at the end of the hunt they're going to be selling their individual harvests. (Which is 60% each of what they were going to be getting while hunting solo)
I think what people are asking is to be able to harvest at their normal amount based on their skill level in groups.
pkirk25 wrote:
Actually its a 20% minimum bonus in that it applies even if the person you are grouped with cannot harvest at all.
I get the feeling that people want more than 20% bonus though. I just wonder how much more than 20% is considered reasonable. As a ranger turned doctor, I suppose bigger harvest means bigger supply and thus I will pay proportionately less to scouts so look forward to see where this goes. It'll be hard on people who like to solo but that seems to be part of the point.
Please show the arithmetic which leads you to saying that.
Nobody is asking for a bonus, most of us believe we are penalised and are therefore asking for the penalty to be removed, or at least reduced.
In fact, for a master ranger grouped with another person, the minimum harvesting skill the other person needs to have if the total harvest is to be 100% is +67 (on the assumption of no veghash or droid used by the lesser harvesting person). Here's the working out:
0.60* (1.00 + X) = 1.00
0.60+ 0.60*X = 1.00
0.60*X=0.40
X=0.67 (2dp).
Message Edited by DaveG on 11-22-2004 03:52 PM
JascoSmlee wrote:My understanding is that as an individual you harvest 60% of your normal harvest when grouped? Is this not the case?*edit*OK so yeah we can get 120% (surely only if we are both Master Rangers though?) in a group of two. But thats still only 60% each? Like I said if I'm hunting for money I want 100% for myself! Why should I take a 40% cut for being grouped?Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 11-22-2004 03:27 PM
You get the extra 20% even if the other person cannot harvest at all. By not being grouped you are taking a pay cut.
Its worth repeating, this assumes that you don't work as a team. If you work intelligently together, you kill in less than 50% of the time so the bonus for grouping rises over 20%.
Also it assumes you take the smallest group possible.
To work out real harvesting rate is easy. What you harvest by yourself when solo is 100% in these calculations. Assume that you group with 3 others making a group of 4. Your group then takes 8 missions. You now are harvesting at 4 times as many sites. So if you were to have no group reduction, you would be 300% better off. With the 40% group reduction, just multiply the new total harvest (400%) by what is left after the reduction (6/10).
So the calculation is (100 * 4 * 6)/10 = 240. Thats a bonus of 140% for grouping even if you group with people who can't harvest.
Check the math - right now you are losing money by not grouping. Of course money isn't everything. I did all of scout solo and loved it.
Message Edited by pkirk25 on 11-22-2004 04:18 PM