Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvestor droid problems enough already
You want us to travel back in time pre-patch to get numbers confirming that the group penalty was indeed applied when the droid did the harvesting for you in a group?
We all know that was the case. You do to.
You don't think there would be "guides" to get around the grouping penalty using a harvesting droid if it wasn't the case. You dont think the Devs would have reacted and 'fixed the exploit'?
And most importantly, you don't trust yourself enough to remember how it was? Are you honestly claming that we did not suffer the grouping-penalty when using a droid?
Oku Kee'lus Remember dont beat up the scout correspondent because hes trying to help us. Even though hes a self acknowledged harvester droid hater, but lover of combat bots. He has put out his hand to help us who do use them and is asking for info that some ranger/scout will come up with.
Remember no trolling or flaming. Thats mine and JB's job.
Fodder650 wrote:
Those arent the numbers he's looking for. He wants to find proof the droids are stopping at 125 without veghash. Or what they are hitting with it. Find out how truly off the droids are. Remember this also includes the droids harvester rating.
Ehm the number speak for themselves. It's pointless to argue about them. It clearly showes when grouped, a droid does even less than working alone. So grouping can be seen as "getting punished when using a droid".
Remember dont beat up the scout correspondent because hes trying to help us. Even though hes a self acknowledged harvester droid hater, but lover of combat bots. He has put out his hand to help us who do use them and is asking for info that some ranger/scout will come up with.
As far as I can read back, I'm not beating up JB. I just responded to his call. If these aren't the numbers he's looking for what other numbers do you want? The numbers are already clear and state without any doubt that mathematically there is something not quite right.
Remember no trolling or flaming. Thats mine and JB's job.
I do neither.
But yes the numbers do show that the droids arent harvesting. But the question still remains on whether the droids are hitting a 125 cap or something else is causing the problem.
Message Edited by Fodder650 on 03-23-2005 02:15 PM
Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 03-23-2005 07:49 PM
agent156 wrote:
This post is about Harvest Droids and their functionality when a Master Ranger is not grouped with any other players. These are the amounts harvested from Mountain Squills over a large area. They numbers are presented in the order harvested. The first item in the the hand row was the first harvest, the first item in the droid row was the second harvest, Etc. I didn't take numbers with Veghash, but testing I did for my self (data lost) confirmed that it did stack with droids. Previous testing has shown that when not grouped with other players, being grouped or not being grouped with the droid has no effect on harvesting.
HB 111 Droid
hand 164, 164, 164, 164, 168, 169
droid 169, 169, 170, 170, 170, 174
This is the data that was asked for. I could point to many people here that probably got bad reading comprehension grades
I am never reading a post about Harvest Droids again.
Before I step out of the issue completely I would like to thank JB for reporting the possible bug in the functionality of these droids when grouped with players. Even if he has fanned the flames of discontent a bit.
Message Edited by agent156 on 03-23-2005 02:55 PM
I read correctly, and also provided MORE data 
Ranger solo (without vegash, droid harvesting): 14
Ranger grouped with droid (without vegash): 13
Ranger grouped with droid (without vegash, droid harvesting): 14
Ranger solo (with veghash, droid harvesting): 15
Ranger grouped with droid (with vegash): 15
Ranger grouped with droid (with vegash droid harvesting): 15
5% of 14 is 0.7 That is small enough to get dropped. I'm quite sure the computations are being done with a floating point data type (I.E. it has a decimal point). When I floating point data type is cast (converted) into and integer data type it just throws away every thing to the right of the decimal point. No rounding of any kind.
You need to be collecting data on something that drops at least 100 units.
Message Edited by agent156 on 03-23-2005 03:41 PM
agent156 wrote:
This post is about Harvest Droids and their functionality when a Master Ranger is not grouped with any other players.
As is this. In this caseI was hunting Bolle Bol on Naboo. Here are the results without veghash:
h 113 113 114 113 119
d 113 112 111 111 119
And here with veghash:
h 133 133 135 134 134
d 131 131 131 131 131
In my case I was using a droid with only a +76 bonus. As you can see this droid was usually harvesting less than me by hand. The obvious reason for this may be my droids low harvest rating - however before the Master Ranger harvest mod was raised to 150, this very same droid would always harvest more than me by hand, with or without veghash. Clearly the new Master harvest mod is having an effect on how the droids work. I know I could just go get a better droid, but this one also has a trap launcher built in. A higher rated droid would not have room for this. I would also like to point out that before the Master Ranger harvest bonus increase, I did test a higher rated droid (116) and at that time a higher rated droid did not have any benefit in harvest over my +76 droid.
Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 03-23-2005 09:50 PM
Since every one seems to want the see the veghash numbers in a hour or two I can add that data to my previous set.
If this its going to be sain and not too whiny I'll stick around and chip in numbers. But a lot of this stuff has just been stupid. If we want the devs to take a look at the situation lets try colecting solid, meaningful data and presenting it to them in a clear and cool headed manner first.
JB said he wasn't going to report that there was a problem with droids solo unless some one gave him numbers. I've been in the mood to gather numbers so I am. I've also gathered some group data.
Ok before I go any further I'd like to point to some data that I do not have but I feel should be gathered for completeness in regards to droid/veghash stacking.
We need someone with a low creature harvest mod using a 110+ droid and +24ish veghash to demonstrate low end numbers.
I myself plan on gathering 1000+ unit data to see if the issue of droid + 24 veghash giving the same harvest as no droid + 24 veghash is do to capping or the bonus from the droid being too small to add a whole unit.
I really think that we can only ask for so many bonuses. I do feel for the people that have droids that now harvest less than their masters do by hand, but that fact that even with veghash a good droid can harvest equal to us makes them of some utility.
From Mountian Squills, the droid was HB 111, the Veghash +24
Harvested by hand, no group. Group data by hand was not gathered since we know that works fine.
170, 170, 169, 168
Harvested by droid in group with no members within 64 m. Please note these amounts are very close to -40% of the above. I.E. The droid is using the old harvest penalty.
104, 104, 106, 106
Harvested by droid in group with a member within 10 m (large safety margin). The same -40% is in effect here.
106, 106, 106, 104
Harvested by droid no group. The droid is showing a small bonus.
175, 176, 176, 176
Harvested by hand with +24 veghash, no group.
192, 191, 192, 192
Harvested by droid with +24 veghash, no group. Same as without the droid. Either I've run into a cap or the bonus from the droid is to small to show.
192, 192, 192, 191
In closing:
Further research is needed in the area of Veghash/droid stacking. We also need to establish what HB rating is needed for droids to harvest the same as a Master Ranger by hand.
The most important data is in the first 3 sets. It clearly shows that droids are enforcing the old -40% group penalty. I think we can all agree that this is a simple oversight on the part of the devs. This still leaves open the issue of the +20% to +40% bonus.
I will restate this to make it crystal clear.
When using the droids in a group you are not getting the getting the new group bonus, and your are getting the old -40% group penalty. Or put another way you are harvesting 50% to 57% less in a group by useing a droid than you would by hand.
Message Edited by agent156 on 03-23-2005 10:54 PM
Agent 156 wrote:
You collected data on a critter that dropped 14 units and expected to see a bonus from veghash?
5% of 14 is 0.7 That is small enough to get dropped. I'm quite sure the computations are being done with a floating point data type (I.E. it has a decimal point). When I floating point data type is cast (converted) into and integer data type it just throws away every thing to the right of the decimal point. No rounding of any kind.
Yes I expect to see it. Cause it depends how you cast. You can floor, ceil or round the value (I'm a progrmmer too). If done methematically correct, 0.7 would become a 1. As it showed in my data this iseven not complying to this assumption.
Without vegash: 13
With vegash: 15
This is an increase of 2 units. A +30 modifier on a MR 150 skill is as you say 5%. 13+5% = 13,65 should be rounded to 14, not 15. Explain to me how vegash works then, unless it is 1+(vegash bonus), in which case it makes sense. However, from experience I know this is not correct, cause when you harvest anything from a baby you only get 1 unit at all times (no matter what modifiers you use). Unless ofcourse it's like
if (is_baby(creature)) { yield = 1; } else { yield = calc_yield(...);}
Sinku wrote:
I agree that the numbers need to be tested on a creature that drops a LOT of units.. a 13-unit kill won't provide enough of a differential to prove a point.
Completely disagree... The same point made by agent 156 was already pointed out by the data:
Ranger solo (without vegash): 13
Ranger solo (without vegash, droid harvesting): 14
Ranger grouped with other (without vegash, droid harvesting): 8
Last time I checked in my book and calculator:
8 = 60% of 13! (actuall it's 7,8 but rounded to 8).
This already (even with low numbers) proves the fact that the droid is still getting the 40% penalty when the owner is grouped.
Ranger solo (with vegash): 15
Ranger solo (with veghash, droid harvesting): 15
Ranger grouped with other (with vegash, droid harvesting): 8
Ranger grouped with other and droid (with vegash): 17
Ranger grouped with other and droid (with vegash, droid harvesting): 8
Look at these numbers.
Using a droid with vegash it does not add the bonus to the MR, Compared to the solo, a 13 harvest was increased to 14 by using a droid. If droid bonus would still apply, this additional +1 should still be added. Might have been just +1 due to the LOW BASE yield but never the less, it contradicts the FIRST set of data. Again: from 13 to 14 and now sticking at 15. This means, droid harvesting is somehow capped.
Second, it again shows the vegas modifier is not taken into account. If you in take the base yield of 15, 60% of 15 = 9! It clearly shows either vegash modifier is not used by droid and it's again capped.
Ie with grouping penalty it should be 8 only when using the base values of the ranger (without the vegash). And this is exactly where the 2nd problem is.
And in these cases, I'm not even talking deeply about the "additional" bonus a droid could/should give (the +1 in the first set of data from +13 to +14). If it would have worked, I thinkthe second set of numbers should have been:
Ranger solo (with vegash): 15
Ranger solo (with veghash, droid harvesting): 16
Ranger grouped with other (with vegash, droid harvesting): 19
Ranger grouped with other and droid (with vegash): 17
Ranger grouped with other and droid (with vegash, droid harvesting): 19
Even with small numbers the same conclusions can be drawn.