Ranger Archive
Thread: Combat Perk/Idea for Rangers
Squidwalker wrote:
Wow some good ideas floating around, and I think I saw a few to satisfy Calc and his justification/balance issue.
Kiryoku wrote:
Squidwalker wrote:
Wow some good ideas floating around, and I think I saw a few to satisfy Calc and his justification/balance issue.
to be fair, it was my justification issue... heh... but it has long been satisfied...
another TN idea... give everyone partial TN transferrance to the mounts (mount gainst TN / 2 or something), but change the TN > 50 we get as rangers to something affecting mount speed in combat... afterall, one of the benefits to being mounted in combat is the speed bonus... withoutgranting some sort of bonus like this, ground fighters could easily /burstrun (or /retreat) and move faster while fighting than the mounted combatant (/galloping restricts youfrom fightng at all)...I would also like to see /gallop speeds effected by TN so we are even faster when not in combat.
i'd like to see this in our "wishlist for the combat balance"... as long as all this is hit on:
rangers gain the ability to use specials (maybe even mounted only specials) from the mount position on creatures... mounted creatures gain a TN bonus relative to the skill of the rider... TN > 50 grants a mount faster combat speed, up to the maximum normal (not /galloping) speed of the creature... ranger mounts can attack while mounted (primarily tomake mounts useful to the melee rangers).. posture down,knock down, and possibly other specials have a chance of dismounting the rider - the ranger should earn slight defenses to being dismounted... Sound good to me?
justification: rangers are explorers, scouts, wayfarers and recon... speed is of the essance, but so is the ability to return withinformation... in his experiences, a ranger hasused mounted creatures to move more quickly through dangerous territories, but has also honed his ability to fight from the mounted position... this would give us an edge in exploring and creature hunting, but would also provide us with a better ability to be the recon in the GCW... How about some benifit to being creature mounted? I dont want to have to push Rangers into a Creature Mounted profession, but if that is the way the Dev's want it, lets se it
why this is not unbalancing: rangers do not inherently earn a bonus to handle creatures, just bonuses to using them while mounted... this means a ranger utilizing only another combat profession is only allowed a CL 10 mount - easily killed by any combat profession, much less a group of players in the GCW... the maximum normal (non /galloping) run speed of a creature mount is slower than that of a /burstrun, even with all the bonuses a ranger would have trouble escaping a /burstrunning or /retreating meleer... I think with the skill points alloted to Master Rangers I dont see why we could not have some kind of extra perk spread over our trees, maybee +10 CL? Could be anything IMHO (like TKM even) but something to justify the points spent
sorry to take this idea and run with it, but i've been wanting something like this for a long time... and you just now made me see that it does indeed belong to rangers... anything i forgot?...
I like the idea, and you guys are fleshing out the implementaion rather nicely, BUT...I am still not sure why Rangers are qualified for this skill.
Squidwalker wrote:
Calc? Any input? Ideas?
That would at least give us a place to start and some realistic (in the DEVs eyes anyway) goals to help them with.
DeltaXi65 wrote:
Squidwalker wrote:
Here is my original post in Ranger. Part of what made me think of this, was the scouts trying to get TN to transfer to creature mounts. So this is maybe another idea, that might help the scouts to get that. Which I agree it should be at scout level. But either way, check it out.
Sorry don't know how to make it clicky.
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=ranger&message.id=52385
This is something that we're talking about with the Devs right now. They're wrangling over the kiting issue, but we're actively discussing it.
B
I understand that concern, and Calc brought it up in my original post. Here is a question. Currently, when mounted and you enter combat, the mount slows down. Is that slowed down speed still faster then the player on foot? If not, then I don't see any kiting issues there at all. Not to mention, as is mentioned farther down in my post, posture change, and prolly KD, attacks dismount you. With transfer of TN, it won't be any different then the player on foot, and gaining a slight "kiting advantage" due to TN. That's just part of tactics, that I use myself all the time in PvE against melee creatures.
I know I read something about how the devs want to implement a running speed factor due to what weapon is equiped, for the CB. Basically someone in combat with a rifle runs much slower then normal with no weapons, and someone with a pistol equipped runs a little slower then normal with no weapon equipped. If part of their concern is rolling around this new factor then how about this for a solution?
Say normal running speed for everyone, no weapon, is 100. If you equip a pistol you run at 80, a carbine 70, a rifle 60. If I'm mounted with a rifle I gain a slight advantage and move at 70. Mounted with carbine I move at 80, mounted with pistol I run at 100, or maybe 90. The point being, keep the system of being slowed down depending on weapon size, but just move the scale up a notch while mounted. Or I guess, they could just leave the system in with full movement penalty while mounted, but that would take a way some of the fun, advantage of being mounted.
Kiryoku wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I like the idea, and you guys are fleshing out the implementaion rather nicely, BUT...I am still not sure why Rangers are qualified for this skill.
Squidwalker wrote:
Calc? Any input? Ideas?
some things that i noticed many rangers felt belonged in their tree was faster movement speed, increased burst run time, decreased burst run down time... these seem justifiable as an extension of exploring - but as nemo0 and others have pointed out, there is a lot of room for griefing and making the game unbalanced with some of these changes...
the way i see it, combat mounts are just the implementation of something we should have: faster, better movement... they are already built in the game with restrictions to prevent endless kiting (a problem with adjusting our own movement speed), but would need some marked improvement to be viable as a ranger skill... what we've suggested here are those improvements...
basically, the abilties we are justified in having are implausible to implement... so instead we should have something similar, that is just a modification of something already existing...
i am however against rangers getting any CH bonuses, even if it is just to storage... that is the realm of the CH, and because of our close ties with that profession it isn't hard for us to pick it up... if all you want is +2 to storage, spend the 6 skill points and get it... you don't even need creature xp for it, it uses scouting... i think keeping the two professions distinct is a good way of balancing this skill... if you want a stronger mount, you have to sacrifice your ability to fight from it (your skillpoints from your combat profession have to go to CH), and vice versa for the CHs...
On this end, maybe there should be a speed/accuracy/damage penalty for firing from a mount (mainly because specials would almost certainly need to be an on/off switch and not a partial change). The penalty could be lessened as you go up the Ranger tree. This way, you have 3 methods of improving your mounted combat, all of them part of a specialization. CHs can have the best mounts by far, Rangers could have improvements to their ability to fight on a mount (although this really would seem to be a cavalry profession more than just Ranger), and a combat profession is what lets you fight at all (although I'd love to be able to use SL specials on a mount--the extra mobility could help). Should this really go to Ranger? I don't know (I'm leaning towards no, though--CHs know the most about caring for and communicating with their creatures). But it is something that we can discuss anyway.
Squidwalker wrote:
Well I can understand an accuracy penalty for attacks, auto or specials, while mounted. Makes sence. BUT there needs to be a good perk for having this penalty. Maybe the idea of ranged and melee defence bonuses would be the counter part to this accuracy penalty. It has to be balance, pros come with cons, and vise versa.
I'm OK not getting any more creature storage as well, just a thought. But as much as CH spend "taming" animlas and making them mounts, that doesn't justify mounted combat. Again, ANYONE can ride a mount, so there is no skills needed to just "ride" one. On top of that the CH profession is all about controlling creatures, and having them fight for you. Getting them to do the labor for you, all the physical work for you, and primarily doing the combat for you. They only require Explore 4 which is what, TN of +40? Come on.
In my opinion, mounted combat is more about controlling (i.e. handling) the creature you are fighting from than it is about knowing the terrain. Knowing the terrain would make you go faster. But it doesn't give you the fine grain control necessary to fight off of the creature. We can argue for the mobility portion of this (it fits with our profession because it increases our mobility in combat) but the handling portion is a stretch. Personally, I'd be happy getting a "travel mode" skill that lets us move a lot more quickly but would either prevent us from attacking or have very detrimental effects when fighting (like -200 accuracy or no special moves). We could get mount like speeds but we wouldn't fight well with them. Turning off the skill would give us back normal speed but let us fight properly. It could possibly automatically be turned off in combat but it definately would need to have a cooldown timer (so you can't use it to get range, start shooting a bit, and then get range again). This sort of skill seems more in line with what we already have than mounted combat does (although it's likely to be more work to implement). I'm not saying we shouldn't have it but I very much doubt the arguments given are more valid than what CHs could produce ("we know how to handle creatures").
I think If anything any class should get this its Creature Handler, even then its kind of a stretch in some situations. Could you imagine trying to shoot a T21 off a sprinting Kaduu? I don't think you could hit anything not the mention the kickback on that thing oughta knock you right off the mount. Melee has a much better argument in my opinion, especially pikeman. A mounted lunge move would be pretty sweet but then how would you figure in the ability with skill points spent. Should all pikeman or melee have this skil, should it be in a CH tree, "equestrian training" or something like that?
/sigh
Message Edited by Scarin on 06-10-2004 04:36 PM
Squidwalker wrote:
Calculus_Entropy wrote:
I like the idea, and you guys are fleshing out the implementaion rather nicely, BUT...I am still not sure why Rangers are qualified for this skill.
Squidwalker wrote:
Calc? Any input? Ideas?
Once answer, 3 skills sum up why.
1. Creatures Knowledge(a deep understanding of animals, their habitats, eating, sleeping, hunting, foraging, surviving, anatomy, methods, strengths, weakneses. All this sums up that we have the deepest most uderstanding of animals then any other profession in the game. Ranger gains the highest creature knowledge of any profession. Taming is done by CH, and we still have to buy a tamed creature from a CH. Any player can "handle to ride" a mountable creature. But the ranger understands the animals, their needs, wants, desires, moods, diet, travel speeds and best terrain for them to travel on.)
This only about halfway convinces me. Who can (usually) ride horses better? A zoologist who works in a labora Rancher who rides horses everyday?Who would you think would be more agile in the saddle?
2. Terrain Negotiation(With number 1, and this skill combined we are the best(and highest skill mod) at traversing the wilds, and its many different terrians on many different planets. We understand terrain, how it effects you, its dangers, its pitfalls, it advantages, disadvantages, how we can utilize it in our favor. We know what will slow us down the most, and cause us problems, and what won't. We know that something with longer legs, or 4 legs, or stronger legs, or larger feet, might traverse the terrain better then us. So you combine this knowledge with number 1 above, and now we know what animals are best suited to what terrain, environments, creatures being hunted, speed, strengths, weaknesses, etc. This might lead to use "maybe" gaining +1 or +2 creature storage, just for the fact we might have different pets for different terrains and environments/planets. Remember, you wouldn't take a dewback to Hoth, and you wound't take a TaunTaun to Tatooine.
I can buy that Rangers know the correct path over terrain and therefore can negotiate it by foot, animal, or vehicle better than the average Joe, BUT that only explains why mounts shouldn't slow down when we are on them. It really doesn't address the combat side of things, which is the point of this thread.
3. Survival.(So now we have the highest skill mod of surviving in the wilderness. What does this mean? It means we are fully adept at surviving in "any" environment, planet, terrain that we encounter. We know what to expect on a planet, as far as animals, both prey and predetor, natural foods, tempetures, terrains, weather, dangers, perks, everything the planet/environment has to offer, good or bad. And we know how to live and survive here better then anyone else. We know to avoid the quick sand, the sarlac, the tarpits. We know to head to the plains of corelia for some game to hunt, and berries to harvest. We know the jungles of Yavin are dangerous and full of predetors, what they are able to do, how they will hunt us, how they travel, and what to do to "survive" that kind of environment. So now you add numbers 1 and 2 to this knowledge, and you have all you need to travel, live, and hunt successfully on any planet in any environment, with speed and efficiency. More then any other profession in the game.
No go on this one...I don't think it relates to the argument.
We know what animal mounts will help us in what evirconments, hunting what animals, or to maybe not use a mount at all and better to stay on foot and use total stealth.
How's that for justification?
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 06-10-2004 12:46 PM
. I agree that SOMEONE should be cavalry, but I am still unconvinced it should be us. Keep it coming, and don't get frustrated 
.
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 06-10-2004 02:45 PM
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 06-10-2004 02:53 PM
Darn..you got me...I was going to say that zoologists had a greater understanding of creatures, BUT I know a lot of ranchers who know plenty about the animals they raise. I suppose the zoologist knows about more animals than a rancher. I would argue that becuase a zoologist knows alot about animals does not mean that they can ride them easily
Squidwalker wrote:
*SNIP*
Dope, Calc you snuck in there. As far ar rancher and zoologist question, I say rancher. But then I ask you, what does the ranger more represent, the rancher or the zoologist?
More represent? We are a hybrid profession of those (and other) professions...I know, cop out!
Hmm you're a tough cookie, you and Nemo.
Message Edited by Squidwalker on 06-10-2004 02:45 PM
. I had to talk in a bit of a circle, but I got back to the point I wanted to make.