Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvesting formula explained almost
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Obata
Sat Feb 19, 2005 2:50 pm
#1
With the data coming in from the testing of the group harvesting bonus, I saw the opportunity to try to figure out how the game calculates the amount that is harvested every time a scout or ranger harvests a creature. I thought this might help explain why having twice the harvesting mod of a master scout doesn't translate to twice the amount harvested (notice, I said explain, not justify 
). This is what I have so far.
). This is what I have so far.There is a base number for each harvest type on each species. Since all the testing data so far are for meat, that is what I will deal with. That base number, I'll call it the harvesting factor, is equal to half of what a master ranger harvests (on average). Obviously there are other factors that affect the harvesting factor (skinny, medium or fat creatures, etc.), so connecting it to the CL of the creature would require much more data. The formula I have so far is:
Harvested amount = F*(1+hm/100)
Where:
F = creature's harvesting factor for that resource
hm = harvesting modifier
This means that a master scout will harvest 1.5 times the harvesting factor, while a master ranger harvests 2 times it. That gives a master scout 75% of a master ranger's harvesting results. Thinking of it in the other direction, a master ranger will harvest one third more than a master scout. The formula held true when I plugged in the numbers for a ranger with tracking 4 and a scout with hunting 4.
I suspect that there are at least 3 contributing factors to the harvesting factor; the CL of the creature, the 'health' of the creature, and a modifier for the type of resource.
Edited to correct typos.
Message Edited by Obata on 02-19-2005 05:38 PM
Obata
Sat Feb 19, 2005 3:45 pm
#2
Ok, I did a little more number crunching and figured out why a ranger with tracking 4 is outharvesting a master ranger when the two are grouped. If you use the formula from my first post, you'll see that a master ranger has a harvesting multiplier of 2.0, while the tracking 4 ranger has 1.9. With the 30% grouping bonus, the master ranger's multiplier becomes 2.60, but the tracking 4 ranger (with a 40% grouping bonus) gets an adjusted modifier of 2.66.
Just to clarify what I mean by harvesting multiplier, it's the (1+hm/100) part. That's the part of the harvesting equation that is determined by the character's skill level + any bonuses (food, grouping, etc.)
Note: I am not, in any way trying to defend the system. I am just attempting to decipher it.
Ehope
Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:07 pm
#3
Well....shucks.
Do the devs WANT us to surrender our Master Ranger Tag? 
frightwig
Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:47 pm
#5
Excellent work on that obata! Even though it's discouraging to see, it definitely sheds light on things.
By the way, here's a list of what the modifiers are for each box in the hunting line, if that helps any.
Creature harvest modifier
NOVICE +15
HUNTING 1 +5/20
HUNTING 2 +10/30
HUNTING 3 +5/35
HUNTING 4 +10/45
MASTER SCOUT +5/50
NOVICE RANGER +5/55
TRACKING 1 +5/60
TRACKING 2 +10/70
TRACKING 3 +10/80
TRACKING 4 +10/90
MASTER RANGER +10/100
By the way, here's a list of what the modifiers are for each box in the hunting line, if that helps any.
Creature harvest modifier
NOVICE +15
HUNTING 1 +5/20
HUNTING 2 +10/30
HUNTING 3 +5/35
HUNTING 4 +10/45
MASTER SCOUT +5/50
NOVICE RANGER +5/55
TRACKING 1 +5/60
TRACKING 2 +10/70
TRACKING 3 +10/80
TRACKING 4 +10/90
MASTER RANGER +10/100
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:04 pm
#6
Congratz obata!
See you took my point of number crunching.. I'm working on some more formula's to get it over with once and for all (i hope)...
Obata
Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:11 pm
#7
Dariane_Kamutsovy wrote:
Congratz obata!
See you took my point of number crunching.. I'm working on some more formula's to get it over with once and for all (i hope)...
Um, not to belittle you, but I could not have come up with this without the data from their testing. This is exactly why we can't just do theoretical calculations to evaluate changes. Now that we have this formula, we can predict what future changes will do. But, as I said in another thread, it's always best to get hard numbers. Without them, you only have theory.
P.S. Can anyone tell what I do in real life yet?
Phenix1050
Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:14 pm
#8
Professional nerd?
Obata wrote:
P.S. Can anyone tell what I do in real life yet?
Owen-Lars
Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:18 pm
#9
lol
Im guessing definatly not a man of theoretical sciences 
The reason i quit Psychology in college was because it was just theory after theory. Whenever i said "prove it" i would get a scolding eye looked upon me and made to recite "Freud was a very intelligent man, he was a great person, that is why he doesnt need proof".
Bah pshychology sucks, just a bunch of people forcing their opinions on others.
Lol where did that come from? Looks like i have some previously unknown issues about my past study areas
Back on subject heh, great work mate, this needed to be explained a long time ago, now we are set for the future.
FultonMeigs
Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:07 pm
#10
Obata wrote:
Ok, I did a little more number crunching and figured out why a ranger with tracking 4 is outharvesting a master ranger when the two are grouped. If you use the formula from my first post, you'll see that a master ranger has a harvesting multiplier of 2.0, while the tracking 4 ranger has 1.9. With the 30% grouping bonus, the master ranger's multiplier becomes 2.60, but the tracking 4 ranger (with a 40% grouping bonus) gets an adjusted modifier of 2.66.
Just to clarify what I mean by harvesting multiplier, it's the (1+hm/100) part. That's the part of the harvesting equation that is determined by the character's skill level + any bonuses (food, grouping, etc.)
Note: I am not, in any way trying to defend the system. I am just attempting to decipher it.
Assuming the numbers are correct, and to me they seem both reasonable and consistant, I like what I see. It would seem correct and appropriate that a Tracking 4 Ranger with a 1.9 harvest multiplier (versus my only very slightly higher 2.0) SHOULD be able to out harvest me because I can offer him more support than he can offer me in return. Now if there is a second Master Ranger in the group, I will also received the tremendous benefit of the support of a Master (40% bonus) and should now have a harvest multiplier of 2.8 (versus the Tracking 4 Ranger's 2.66) and I will once again be harvesting more than the Tracking 4 Ranger.
In the situation described it is not an issue of a non-master out harvesting a master, it is a issue of a near master with the support of a full master, out harvesting a master without the support of full master.
I see nothing unbalanced about this.
AragornSoS
Sat Feb 19, 2005 9:35 pm
#11
I'm not sure I'd consider a "0040 Ranger" a "near Master" tho. They spend 20 SPs just in Ranger to get that. "Near master", at least to me, implies someone who's taking at LEAST 2 branches of the profession, and really "near Master" to me personally implies they are near to getting master... 4444, 4044, something that indicates they are actually a "Ranger" vs a dabbler ranger.
I spend63 points in Ranger skillsalone to be a Master Ranger. The difference between a Tracker and I, among many other things,is 43 skill points. That is a fairly large investment on my part to have someone who has invested about 1/3 of what I have out-harvest me consistently. That's unbalancing and unfair, and it's penalizing the very people who have actually DONE the work and made the investment in time and skill points to get to that level.
If this doesn't change, I doubt my game play style will change either. I can't see giving a special bonus to everyone BUT me, based on skills that I'm likely the only person in the group that has invested in... and the chance of even finding a non-Master Ranger to group w/me when I hunt, so I can maybe still get a 30% bonus vs a 20% bonus, is fairly slim. If the best I can do is a 20% bonus, and that means having to deal with a bunch of uber l33ts who can't hunt and won't listen... I'm sticking solo, me and my cat and my veghash, and that's that. This, as its spelled out currently, is actually a disincentive to me personally to ever group with people just for the purpose of hunting (with the obvious caveats of guildies or other Rangers that I've met). I can also see a lot of "d00d! HuNT wit m3 n0w!" type tells coming from this.
I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that when we talk about the bonus as it's currently proposed, the liklihood of actually GETTING multiple Rangers in a group to trigger the 30% or 40% harvest for the other Rangers in the group is going to be fairly low. We're a small community, and I'd wager that most groups if this happened would be 19 TKM/Swordsman types and 1 Ranger. So that means that, in reality, most Rangers will never see more than the 20% "default bonus" for being in a group. Harder to "prove" or put hard numbers to, but it is I think a valid point, and one that might be mentioned to the Devs as well. We can SAY we're "close" if we get the 30% bonus and probably okay if we find 2 Masters to get in the group, but the chances of that happening are, IMHO, fairly small to non-existant. I think the best we can expect to get in the majority of cases would be the 20% bonus, and the numbers and the formula are already showing that anyone who is Master Ranger then is getting the short end of the harvest in relation to the time and skill points we invest.
Sunsplitter
Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:59 pm
#12
Great work Obata.
Hope this gets a 2nd look and some rework.
Master Rangers should be able to harvest more than any other in the group.
If not, I'll be finding a single Master Ranger hunting partner and split the harvests.
I will not be too popular either when I turn down requests to hunt.
Preacher-UM
Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:19 am
#13
I happen to be lucky enough to be in a guild with another Master, so i am really looking forward to see how some of these changes translate into gameplay.
AragornSoS wrote:
the liklihood of actually GETTING multiple Rangers in a group to trigger the 30% or 40% harvest for the other Rangers in the group is going to be fairly low.
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