Ranger Archive
Thread: Camo kits for all doesnt make Rangers useless.
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Cango
Sat May 21, 2005 11:11 am
#1
Camo kits that someone place on themselves will be several times less effective than one a Ranger places on them.
Look at it this way.
With RoTW, I can loot a Kashyyyk lance. I can use it as well, and do damage. However, a master pikeman will do MUCH more damage with it.
Really, how often in the past did you offer to camo random people for 2k a peice?
Your buddies can still enjoy your uber camo, as can you. Now, random crafters can enjoy it, albeit to a lesser extent.
Look at it this way.
With RoTW, I can loot a Kashyyyk lance. I can use it as well, and do damage. However, a master pikeman will do MUCH more damage with it.
Really, how often in the past did you offer to camo random people for 2k a peice?
Your buddies can still enjoy your uber camo, as can you. Now, random crafters can enjoy it, albeit to a lesser extent.
Dark_0ne
Sat May 21, 2005 3:59 pm
#2
From my perspective, this isn't a big deal.
It's a bit like the fact that anyone can use a harvester to mine resources.
Sure it might be another nail in the coffin - along with all the rest, but if it means crafters can play the game a little like they did before the COMBAT upgrade, then I'm pleased for them.
It adds more dependency on another profession - something which the game is supposed to have as a driving principle, and from my perspective is now the first dependency solely on the Ranger class. Up until now we were an optional extra in the game, but now we have a solid dependency - a crafter wants some form of camo - we are the only ones who can craft it.
This isn't the Ranger breaker - that was already done. This is a tiny step in the right direction (IMO) to making us viable and useful.
When the revamp comes, I can only imagine it will be good.
Think about it - at least the Devs know we exist eh ?
;-)
It's a bit like the fact that anyone can use a harvester to mine resources.
Sure it might be another nail in the coffin - along with all the rest, but if it means crafters can play the game a little like they did before the COMBAT upgrade, then I'm pleased for them.
It adds more dependency on another profession - something which the game is supposed to have as a driving principle, and from my perspective is now the first dependency solely on the Ranger class. Up until now we were an optional extra in the game, but now we have a solid dependency - a crafter wants some form of camo - we are the only ones who can craft it.
This isn't the Ranger breaker - that was already done. This is a tiny step in the right direction (IMO) to making us viable and useful.
When the revamp comes, I can only imagine it will be good.
Think about it - at least the Devs know we exist eh ?
;-)
Almagill
Sat May 21, 2005 4:11 pm
#3
Dark_0ne wrote:
When the revamp comes, I can only imagine it will be good.
Think about it - at least the Devs know we exist eh ?
;-)
"When the revamp comes". Well, assuming there will be anything left to revamp (ie that's not already farmed out to every man and the sheep that he rode in on already) any 'revamp' is going to result in the Ranger profession, if it still exists, being something totally different from anything any of us currently recognise as ranger.
"at least the Dev's know we exist". Ah, yes... like they remembered we existed when we were left out of CU (until an almighty creaming and wailing went up and they thought 'oh throw them a bone'). Or like they remembered that we NEED the peace command to exist for one of our specials to work? Or they remembered that we existed when they used our conceal command to activate another profession special?
Y'know, I reckon they DO know that we exist and I am seriously begining to think that they are thinking "hey, look at that bunch of players over there, they seem to have fun, don't complain much, seem to be able to work in groups or solo as the choose, heck, some of them even managed to kill some critters last week.... We better go Fix That Fast!"
Owen-Lars
Sat May 21, 2005 4:33 pm
#4
This is what gets to me when i hear the, ok anyone can use a lesser version comments:
Camo is unique to our profession, now this is going to change, we loose identity even further. How do you make a lesser version of camo without it actually not working at all? You make it useable and rangers get screwed because our camo no less of anincrease, you make our applied camo effective over the anyone applied kits and then the kits are useless because they are too weak.
Besides the fact rangers cannot get vendors and besides the fact that since when did we become a crafting/merchant profession this change is handing out my favourite skill (even with its bugs and issues) and its this i hate.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun May 22, 2005 12:56 am
#5
Cango wrote:
Camo kits that someone place on themselves will be several times less effective than one a Ranger places on them.
Look at it this way.
With RoTW, I can loot a Kashyyyk lance. I can use it as well, and do damage. However, a master pikeman will do MUCH more damage with it.
Really, how often in the past did you offer to camo random people for 2k a peice?
Your buddies can still enjoy your uber camo, as can you. Now, random crafters can enjoy it, albeit to a lesser extent.
My apology forehand because some people just ask for it... (I almost feel like a second JBMat... *waves*)
I never offered camo. Most of the time I gave it away to groupmembers, friend, fellow citizens.
Great you can use lance. I can too. Ihope.However, since I'm only a MRanger and a MCH and just enough to get Marksman 4--4 using the lance would not make much difference.
I understand you are a bountyhunter...
Maybe I should ask for some scatter pistol certifications and the special shots that come with them. After all, you can use our previous UNIQUE traps to root/snare things, but you can even use it on PEOPLE! We still CAN't with traps.
The scatter pistols might be less effective then used by a bountyhunter, but who cares...
AragornSoS
Sun May 22, 2005 8:04 am
#6
It also makes it exceptionally difficult to argue for camo improvements in the mythical revamp as well, as I believe WildBill pointed out in another thread. If we are the only ones who can use camo to conceal ourselves, and we are the "survival experts", it would seem to make sense that we'd get some improved version of the Rifleman take cover ability (HUD invisibility etc). However, if EVERYONE can use a camo kit now, how in the world can we ever expect that camo will allow that benefit, or any of the other benefits discussed at great length in the various proposals for the supposed "Ranger Revamp" (which, despite folks saying "oh, when it comes", we still don't even have an In Concept thread stating that or even a Dev or someone like Tiggs or TH posting here even knowing we exist, nevermind are slated for any kind of revamp).
I'm saddened by this, and I think it strips a very unique (and costly!) skill from our profession, hands it out to everyone without them needing to invest a single skillpoint, and further reduces ou chances of ever seeing Ranger move towards the true wilderness survival / personal concealment specialist that many of us would love to see.
Greywulf0
Sun May 22, 2005 8:36 am
#7
Owen-Lars wrote:
This is what gets to me when i hear the, ok anyone can use a lesser version comments:
Camo is unique to our profession, now this is going to change, we loose identity even further. How do you make a lesser version of camo without it actually not working at all? You make it useable and rangers get screwed because our camo no less of anincrease, you make our applied camo effective over the anyone applied kits and then the kits are useless because they are too weak.
Besides the fact rangers cannot get vendors and besides the fact that since when did we become a crafting/merchant profession this change is handing out my favourite skill (even with its bugs and issues) and its this i hate.
/cheer Owen
The thing to remember is that Ranger is an elite profession. It may even be the profession with the highest SP cost (not certain about all the other professions).
How would bounty hunters feel if everyone could get bounty missions?
How wouldArmorsmiths feel if everyone could make their own, albeit low quality, armor?
Smugglers can slice, why can't I?
How would Weaponsmiths feel...oh wait...I forgot that you can go to Kashyyyk and get your own weapons, and ones that are generally better than weaponsmiths can make (/comfort weaponsmiths)
If they give the camo kits out for everyone to use. They had better replace that line of ranger with something, anything. I'm not talking about fixing traps, I'm talking about replacing that line of an elite profession with something new, that works.
Oh, well. Guess I'm just dreaming here.
[Edit] I forgot that pilots are already given starter ships, I should have said low mass ships
Message Edited by Greywulf0 on 05-22-2005 11:15 AM
Dark_0ne
Sun May 22, 2005 3:14 pm
#8
Almagill wrote:
Dark_0ne wrote:
When the revamp comes, I can only imagine it will be good.
Think about it - at least the Devs know we exist eh ?
;-)
"When the revamp comes". Well, assuming there will be anything left to revamp (ie that's not already farmed out to every man and the sheep that he rode in on already) any 'revamp' is going to result in the Ranger profession, if it still exists, being something totally different from anything any of us currently recognise as ranger.
"at least the Dev's know we exist". Ah, yes... like they remembered we existed when we were left out of CU (until an almighty creaming and wailing went up and they thought 'oh throw them a bone'). Or like they remembered that we NEED the peace command to exist for one of our specials to work? Or they remembered that we existed when they used our conceal command to activate another profession special?
Y'know, I reckon they DO know that we exist and I am seriously begining to think that they are thinking "hey, look at that bunch of players over there, they seem to have fun, don't complain much, seem to be able to work in groups or solo as the choose, heck, some of them even managed to kill some critters last week.... We better go Fix That Fast!"
Granted - the revamp will undoubtedly result in a very diferent profession than what we have today - one can only hope that it will take up a lot of the great ideas posted on these forums and make Ranger a truly great profession - not just a lifestyle.
As for the Devs "knowing" we exist. I think the ?creaming and wailing had the desired effect - they realised that we eventually "lose it" and get a little irritated.
I happen to think that our collective response was all the more effective because up untill that point we had been "pointedly" polite about all things. Just think - some of us actuall had posts deleted !!!!
I'm cancelling one account and only logging on twice a week on my main from now on. I'll see what the ranger revamp brings - if it's good, I'll stay. If not, I'll quit completely.
DND_Cas
Sun May 22, 2005 5:41 pm
#9
The really annoying thing about all this is we will simply have "craftingrangers" now. They'll buy meat, hide and the likes off hunting rangers & scouts and make the camo kits for profit and sell them on thier artisan vendors. Its funny even when things were happening to this profession they were always in line with the survivalist picture. This change paints us as crafters...if thats the new picture... 
I can be a tailor, a bioengineer, a weaponsmith, an armorsmith or an artisan if I want to make a ingame living out of crafting. Why destory the diversity of different types of professions? Just..doesn't make much sense to me.
Dariane_Kamutsovy
Sun May 22, 2005 11:47 pm
#10
In fact, the "crafting rangers" would only need Ranger 4--- to make all except the Dathomir one. Still no word if the Kashyyyk camo requires Master as well tough...
Think about it! A ranger 4-4- will have enough sp left to harvest a lot, make/sell camo AND have a decent combat profession...
There is NO reason whatsoever to become MASTER ranger... Unless it's for the livestyle... Professionwise it's a sucker...
AgonThalia
Mon May 23, 2005 5:46 am
#11
Owen-Lars wrote:
a bunch of great stuff.
Firstly, i want to make it very clear that i am not happy with this change.
Owen and others have said that camouflage is one of the two things that make us unique. The other one is obviously tracking.
My initial post is that we lose nothing with this change. I want to clarify and say that we lose nothing tangible, and the result is that something that we make will actually help non-combatants. This is a double edged sword however.
Since the beginning of the game, rangers have not been unique. We have only been scout x 2. The devs gave us two things. Camo and Tracking. Now camo has been universalized i feel that our uniqueness has been degraded.
Up until now, we have had nothing, other than organics, that we can sell for profit. Now we have 2 things.
However, with this new change, i think that they have done it right.
If a ranger applies the camo, it is more effective than if you apply it alone. Thats a good thing.
This provides some usefulness to being a ranger.
-------
Owen's point, i think is spot on. We lose some of our uniqueness, we lose some of our identity, and what was ours is now everyone's.
I think that this is not the death of ranger, just another example of how poorly we were initially designed and implemented.
Message Edited by AgonThalia on 05-23-2005 08:47 AM
Owen-Lars
Mon May 23, 2005 6:56 am
#12
Yeah you're spot on Drak, its not our demise, its not the erasing of ranger from the game but it does come with a distinct set of issues most notably removing a level of uniqueness to the skill. I just hate the idea that when im running around with my camo up ill look at the 100s of people at the starport ready to head out and they will all have camo up, it makes me feel why have i spent the skill points getting this skill and why is it any different to any other skill.
If the kits gave a 80/90% mask scent effect then its all good, keep our elite skill unique and open for changes.
Like you said, its not the death, just an example of how poorly implemented we are.
GoldMemberBria
Mon May 23, 2005 10:17 am
#13
Some recent ranger history:
1. Rangers claim camps are useless, nobody uses them, and that the survival branch is too painful to level.
Devs make change such that rangers can level the survival branch via hunting.
Rangers whine that the pain associated with levelling the "worthless" camp branch is an essential element of being a ranger.
2. Rangers claim that to make ranger viable they need to have combat level increases and increased harvests, otherwise people threaten to drop ranger.
Devs make change to give rangers combat level increases and increased harvests.
People cheer the change, claiming that "ranger has been saved", then Owen, Calc, JB, and many others drop ranger anyway, then whine that rangers are not viable prior to the revamp.
3. Rangers claim that cammo kits are worthless, that virtually all of them use mask scent instead, and that they need to be revamped.
Devs make change to make cammo kits more useful by making them a sellable commodity to non-rangers while losing none of their current functionality.
Rangers whine that cammo kits were a vital part of being a ranger and that nobody else should be able to use them and that they're better off without any sellable commodities.
Prediction: Ranger revamp comes, many things are changed, some of the things in the "outdoorsman" and other proposals are implemented, plus many new ideas from the devs themselves are added.
Many new rangers join the ranger ranks, existing rangers whine, hate it, curse the devs, then remain ranger anyway, longing for the "old days".
Message Edited by GoldMemberBria on 05-23-2005 10:19 AM
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