CUEmu - Thread Posts

LordSaibot

Fri May 28, 2004 8:15 am

Ok, with all of the great ideas floating around about what a ranger could and should be, I've been thinking. Ideas to increase usefulness of trapping and concealment against humanoid targets don't seem to be working on the devs. Possibly if we submitted an idea that would only require a small amount of number tweaking on their part they might squeeze us into the next jedi publish or something.

The idea is to modify our run speed. This could be done by altering the effectiveness of terrain negotiation after 50, or it could work off of the burst run modifiers. For balance and simplicity burst run efficiency in it's current form (lowering ham cost) could max out by the time you hit master scout much like terrain negotiation does, and from there the additional skill mods you recieve could go toward increasing the amount of time that it lasts.

Another idea is to implement a new skill, but still based on the same basic concepts that are in game. If we were given a /burstrun2 we could either let it stack with burst run to give us 2 in a row or one super fast burst. Or,we could get something that is similar to the way /center works for brawlers. It could be called /sprint and on the duration mod, it would simply lower down time between bursts. Spread the skills for this through the ranger tree, making it to where you can burst run or sprint more often the higher you go and at master you can do it almost continuously for a sizeable amount of ham per round.

Now for the justification. A few of our problems seem to be that we can't really compete in pvp or big game hunting as well as people who spend the points else where, vehicles and the ability to call them without camps leaves no dependency on scout for travel let alone ranger, and a novice scout with a combat template can harvest more per hour than a master ranger with one combat elite mastery. This may not solve, but will alieviate some of the above. For pvp the near infinite burst run would help kite, or stop kiting, yet i feel is balanced because of the lack of defenses that we could possibly have due to the skill point sink. For transportation vehicles would still be better for speed, but the ability to fight as you go might make running safer or at least more profitable. And finally the biggy it seems on the boards from what i've read. We don't harvest the resources (our main source of income) as well as a novice scout; well with the increased running you could easily move around killing/harvesting without having to run back to the speeder constantly, so it could be potentially even.

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but i didn't feel like thumbing through old posts to see. I also understand that this wouldn't solve all of our problems, but it would be a start, and is less work intensive to implement than many of the concealment systems that i've seen (which would probably be foiled by 3rd party software). So, if you guys would, please take these ideas discuss and keep what we like. Then hound the devs indefinitely till we get something done.

Gravis Temav

-LootTrooper-

Nemo0

Fri May 28, 2004 8:21 am

#2

The main problem is the kiting. For PvE, it would let you kill creatures that shouldn't be possible. For PvP, it would increase the kiting problem. Kiting is already an extremely annoying and common problem. With such a change, it would only get worse. Any melee player that wanted to PvP would almost be forced to pick up this skill. If the speed increase was non combat only (like it is for mounts) then this might be possible. But then it is not nearly as useful.

Lythender Nirou
Crazy Bothan

LordSaibot

Fri May 28, 2004 8:30 am

#3

I've been an all melee template so i'll comment on kiting in pvp. As a brawler when you get kited you havethree choices, one you can give chase, two you can counter-kite (run the other way and then double back on them), and three you can take cover behind anything that will break line of sight to force either a stale-mate, or them coming back. I pvp'd for over 3 months with no ranged skills and the only template that can truly kite someone who is prepared is one that has doc to heal dizzy. Now if you master doc, which is the same amount of skill points as ranger, you get infinite kiting, and the ability to tank almost anything in the game with good armor. I'm not trying to get docs nerfed, but i think that the two would be very comparable, though the difference being that when you spend this many skill points you don't have any kd def, so one mistake and you're as good as dead. I don't know about you, but ranger seems a better fit for master kiter than doc or cm.

So, anyone who complains about kiting is either not using everything at thier disposal, or they are fighting a doc

P.S. this was also the reason for the varying degrees of effectiveness

Message Edited by LordSaibot on 05-28-2004 08:32 AM

Gravis Temav

-LootTrooper-

Nemo0

Fri May 28, 2004 8:49 am

#4

LordSaibot wrote:

I've been an all melee template so i'll comment on kiting in pvp. As a brawler when you get kited you havethree choices, one you can give chase, two you can counter-kite (run the other way and then double back on them), and three you can take cover behind anything that will break line of sight to force either a stale-mate, or them coming back. I pvp'd for over 3 months with no ranged skills and the only template that can truly kite someone who is prepared is one that has doc to heal dizzy. Now if you master doc, which is the same amount of skill points as ranger, you get infinite kiting, and the ability to tank almost anything in the game with good armor. I'm not trying to get docs nerfed, but i think that the two would be very comparable, though the difference being that when you spend this many skill points you don't have any kd def, so one mistake and you're as good as dead. I don't know about you, but ranger seems a better fit for master kiter than doc or cm.

So, anyone who complains about kiting is either not using everything at thier disposal, or they are fighting a doc

P.S. this was also the reason for the varying degrees of effectiveness

Message Edited by LordSaibot on 05-28-2004 08:32 AM

Even if it is not a major problem in PvP (I know about the tactics you recommend but I still hate kiting even when I'm doing it myself), it will cause problems in PvE. If a creature can't catch you then it can't hit you. And creature AI is not nearly as complex as player tactics. I've managed to kite enough creatures without an increase in speed (mainly using a combination of suppression fire and warning shot as the success rate is higher than traps and they don't freeze you in place). If that rancor never had a chance to reach me anyway then there would be no challenge at all.

Lythender Nirou
Crazy Bothan

MonsofoLexius

Fri May 28, 2004 9:26 am

#5

Not to hijack the tread but how about something as simple as

At Frontiering 3 we get med usage 5 and ability to use stim

At Master Ranger we get a meditation (or something like this) that allows us to heal mind woundslike a novice entertainer (not bf, save that for next time {my motto KiSS} ) for the group in a .85+ camp and whatever else might be a good restriction. This could help in the Ranger usefullness

(for laughs we will call this skill "sit around camp fire, drink beer, tell lies" causethat always makes me feel better)

This would be my thought for the simplest way IMHO allow those with novice medic/entertainer/both to free up 15-30 sp and use in combat etc or for those that don't to use stims etc to go after more stuff.

And they can have it all back when they acually do a profession revamp on Ranger

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- In rememberance of our friend, Luckky Johnson (Toni Sinclair)
"Every day I feel like I am opening a present when
I double-click the SWG icon"-Vorpaks
Thanks bud...now, about the Garment habit of yours. You need an intervention! - Calculus_Entropy /flex - n'Jessi
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calculus_Entropy

Fri May 28, 2004 9:40 am

#6

MonsofoLexius wrote:

Not to hijack the tread but how about something as simple as

At Frontiering 3 we get med usage 5 and ability to use stim

At Master Ranger we get a meditation (or something like this) that allows us to heal mind woundslike a novice entertainer (not bf, save that for next time {my motto KiSS} ) for the group in a .85+ camp and whatever else might be a good restriction. This could help in the Ranger usefullness

(for laughs we will call this skill "sit around camp fire, drink beer, tell lies" causethat always makes me feel better)

This would be my thought for the simplest way IMHO allow those with novice medic/entertainer/both to free up 15-30 sp and use in combat etc or for those that don't to use stims etc to go after more stuff.

And they can have it all back when they acually do a profession revamp on Ranger

That will never fly with the devs, and it would take a lot of convincing (it would probably take a miracle, or overwhelming support) to get me to even suggest it to a dev. Think of it in the reverse way: Doctors need resources, so why shouldn't they get a creature harvesting mod?

Calculus Entropy
Ranger Blue Glowie Emeritus
Garindan used /areatrack to find Han.

Sunsplitter

Fri May 28, 2004 9:52 am

#7

I like the idea of increasing the TN a bit for Ranger as well (see - petter.us/rettep/rangerplan.php).

More important would be a transfer of some of the TN bonus to mounts. This would be helpful in getting quickly to the place I want to hunt. What would be cool, is a transfer also to the speed of ships in the SE for rangers.

RETTEP - Master Ranger/Master Rifleman - Scylla, Twin Mountain Base - www.swg-tmb.com (offline) ** LONG LIVE THE RANGER **

TalKurgan

Fri May 28, 2004 10:15 am

#8

"Even if it is not a major problem in PvP (I know about the tactics you recommend but I still hate kiting even when I'm doing it myself), it will cause problems in PvE. If a creature can't catch you then it can't hit you. And creature AI is not nearly as complex as player tactics. I've managed to kite enough creatures without an increase in speed (mainly using a combination of suppression fire and warning shot as the success rate is higher than traps and they don't freeze you in place). If that rancor never had a chance to reach me anyway then there would be no challenge at all."

But if endless kiting is already in place, then what effect will increased speed have? A creature's only current defense against kiting is to despawn.

By the way, I hate kiting too.

"And so our player base was coming around the corner and we were all BOOM! HEADSHOT! And then the veterans were coming down the stairs and, you know what? BOOM! HEADSHOT!" -FPSDev

Nemo0

Fri May 28, 2004 10:26 am

#9

TalKurgan wrote:

"Even if it is not a major problem in PvP (I know about the tactics you recommend but I still hate kiting even when I'm doing it myself), it will cause problems in PvE. If a creature can't catch you then it can't hit you. And creature AI is not nearly as complex as player tactics. I've managed to kite enough creatures without an increase in speed (mainly using a combination of suppression fire and warning shot as the success rate is higher than traps and they don't freeze you in place). If that rancor never had a chance to reach me anyway then there would be no challenge at all."

But if endless kiting is already in place, then what effect will increased speed have? A creature's only current defense against kiting is to despawn.

By the way, I hate kiting too.

Ah, but kiting a creature now takes some effort. I would actually need to time the uses of my skills and worry about missing/failing. With an increased run rate, I would have no trouble at all (other than the nearby creatures that I need to worry about anytime I move). I just hit the autorun key and the creature can never catch me. As a Master Ranger/Master Rifleman/Marksman 4/0/0/4, I could kite just about any creature (I couldn't do it for a krayt but I could do it for an Ancient Bull Rancor). But I actually had to put some effort into it. A general speed increase would let me kite most creatures out there with a higher success rate as a Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader (although it would take me a lot longer to kill them). I would occasionally fail when hunting as a Ranger/Rifleman (mainly when I wouldn't realize that my shot had missed, although it was rare for me to miss). A faster run speed removes the risk of failing (although you could accidentally run into a tree or a log...).

Lythender Nirou
Crazy Bothan

LordSaibot

Fri May 28, 2004 11:31 am

#10

Nemo0 wrote:

TalKurgan wrote:

"Even if it is not a major problem in PvP (I know about the tactics you recommend but I still hate kiting even when I'm doing it myself), it will cause problems in PvE. If a creature can't catch you then it can't hit you. And creature AI is not nearly as complex as player tactics. I've managed to kite enough creatures without an increase in speed (mainly using a combination of suppression fire and warning shot as the success rate is higher than traps and they don't freeze you in place). If that rancor never had a chance to reach me anyway then there would be no challenge at all."

But if endless kiting is already in place, then what effect will increased speed have? A creature's only current defense against kiting is to despawn.

By the way, I hate kiting too.

Ah, but kiting a creature now takes some effort. I would actually need to time the uses of my skills and worry about missing/failing. With an increased run rate, I would have no trouble at all (other than the nearby creatures that I need to worry about anytime I move). I just hit the autorun key and the creature can never catch me. As a Master Ranger/Master Rifleman/Marksman 4/0/0/4, I could kite just about any creature (I couldn't do it for a krayt but I could do it for an Ancient Bull Rancor). But I actually had to put some effort into it. A general speed increase would let me kite most creatures out there with a higher success rate as a Master Ranger/Master Squad Leader (although it would take me a lot longer to kill them). I would occasionally fail when hunting as a Ranger/Rifleman (mainly when I wouldn't realize that my shot had missed, although it was rare for me to miss). A faster run speed removes the risk of failing (although you could accidentally run into a tree or a log...).

or, you could just go master fencer/brawler, 4004 tk, and 1040 pistoleer, /center and not get hit anyway. I did this, fully buffed with 77% ubese i stood in the middle of 6 force crystal hunters (the biggest ones that the cave has to offer) spamming an area attack and my hams never moved more than the amount that they could regen back on the next tick from my buffs. I've done this with Night Sisters as well, and the only one that hit consistantly enough was the elder but through armor, intimidation, and buffs she wasn't getting anywhere. I've seen a doc/swordsman stand toe to toe easily with a ns elder because he can continuously heal for 2k+. Riflemen can in theory concealshot most things to death. It's not like it's hard to solo anything in this game anyway and most of these techniques don't even require being at the keyboard. Well written macros will work in all 3 of those cases except maybe in the case of the rifleman starting a bleed. If it doesn't unbalance pvp, and it doesn't create something that's not already there in pve, then why not let us compete with with the big boys?

Also, i don't guess i expressed the idea that we don't necessarily have to go the infinite burst run route. In my original post I listed several other alternatives all the way down as weak as another burst that could be stacked. You'd still have a lot of down time, and water still screws you. If you timed how long it takes to burst run twice, it's not that long, and anything that can be kited to death in that period of time isn't a real challenge anyway.

Gravis Temav

-LootTrooper-

Wideshot

Fri May 28, 2004 11:37 am

#11

I accept the problem of kiting in PvP, but are we actually saying that kiting in PvE more unbalancing than templating a melee for defence and simply wondering up to a creature and spamming your DPS attacks - as the melee (several not even masters) that I often hunt with a quite capable of doing to multiple Nightsisters and Bull Rancors (buffed of course)?

Perhaps a longer lasting snare on the Ph. Dart and a shorter duration AoE snare trap would help in PvE.

Nemo0

Sat May 29, 2004 12:02 am

#12

Remember that the Combat Balance is meant to bring things back into line. We shouldn't be comparing what is easy to kill now with what is meant to be easy to kill. Yes, currently, anyone with decent armor and buffs can kill most things in the game. But the Devs are working on fixing that. By allowing some template to kite very well, you defeat this purpose. Allowing someone twice as much time to kill something is going to make things that much harder to balance.

A system where you could run quite quickly when not in combat and /sprint to get an extra boost (along the lines of a mount and /gallop) is something I could see the Devs doing without a huge amount of trouble (although mostly unnecessary with speeders and mounts unless they also give us stealth but on foot only). Putting in a system where you are specifically looking for or are able to get a combat advantage makes things that much harder to balance. It adds a whole new variable to the balancing equations (player speed). Is it possible to do in some fashion? Almost certainly yes. But I think the effort spent devising a good combat usable speed boost for Rangers would be better spent on other skills (especially when we have mounts and speeders for non combat use).

My main point is that changes that might seem small really are not. Yes, this skill would be useful. To me, though, I think the time spent implementing this would be better spent on a more versatile skill. Such a skill will only be useful when you are fighting alone. Any other players with you won't be able to keep up (one of the main reasons a Squad Leader gives such a large bonus to Terrain Negotiation is because it keeps the group together without anyone needing to wait around). In combat, the creature will just switch to a slower character as soon as you get far enough away. Something like traps or stealth is useful in both situations.

Lythender Nirou
Crazy Bothan

Wideshot

Sat May 29, 2004 3:25 am

#13

The most infuriating thing about suggesting ideas is that we see utterly no feedback. I know and understand that the Devs don't want to make commitments they will probably change anyway. But the core of ideas have been submitted about 6-8 months now and a few interesting side ideas keep emerging every now and again. However, no feedback whatsoever (bar /conceal not meant to be working on NPCs and reallocating the Dev who was to look at our issues to player cities - fair enough but can't he be reallocated back).

Perhaps with the new expansion we will be given complementary brick walls to bang our heads on. With enough experience on the head banging tree we can eventually ability the ability to become numb to the frustration of no feedback.

Sigh, in one of my frustrated moods, will probably be smiling against later today.

SWG

- Great graphics

- Cool settings

- No idea of game play (I mean come one, loads of special moods and social macros developed, how much brain power does it take to figure that they may actually be used if there was a seperate hotkey bar solely for socials)

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