Ranger Archive

Now some of you might not like at face value what I'm going to say, but just read through the whole post first before having a reaction.

I see a potential problem with two of the new traps they are going to implement. The lure I don't see any issue with, but its the bear trap and trip wire that concern me. Here is what I see potentially happening when they are implemented:

A Ranger goes out and sees an increbily tough mob like a Krayt or something of similar high difficulty. Using conceal, he gets close to the critter, then lays a line of 20 or 30 bear traps or trip wires away from the creature in a straight line. He then gets to the end of that line, and opens fire on the creature. The creature charges forward, hits one trap...eventually breaks free after awhile, hits the next trap, then the next one, etc etc. The ranger defeats the high level mob solo because it can never get close enough to even touch him.

We all know, that if that happens, we are going to get a massive nerf to our traps. What I'm trying to suggest here is that we make sure we get our traps working *right* and balanced from the get go so we don't get nerfed in the wrong direction.

What I mean is, I think, and I think most Rangers will agree with me, that our high level traps should be extremely effective...not a split second here or there like the scout level traps. We've worked long and hard for our trapping ability, dang it, the Ranger traps need to be extremely effective.

So, here is what I propose ahead of time:

1) Ranger traps can not be used while in combat - The nature of our traps is going to be like real life traps...you trick the creature into stumbling into them...how many real life hunters wait until a bear charges them then throws a bear trap down on the ground in front of them?

2) We can only have somewhere between 1 to 3 of the same trap type deployed at any one time. This will prevent any spamming of traps giving rangers the ability to solo the top creatures.

3) To compensate for the 1 to 3 trap limit for each type, we can move our traps at any time prior to combat by undeploying them then redeploying them somewhere else. That way we can move a trap if a critter gets up and moves elsewhere or we decide to not attempt the creature/change strategy pre-fight.

I'm bringing all this up now because I can so easily see what is going to happen if we don't make sure this works right from the start. If our traps come without the limits I discussed up above, allowing Rangers to spam their traps against creatures, one or both of the following is likely going to happen:

- They will make our traps insanely weak to prevent soloing exploits

- They will make traps very very costly to build, thus negating any real benefit to using them frequently

I think we should make sure our traps work right from the get go so we can avoid any nerfing in the long run. I'd like to think most Rangers would agree with the system I outlined above as a fair way to restrict Ranger trapping ability while at the same time letting us have truly effective and powerful traps.

If you read this Mineras, I think this needs to be communicated to the devs anyway you know of before traps are implemented. I'd like to think our dev has already taken the above into consideration, and he probably has, but I don't want to take any chances

Bad creature to use the analogy with. Krayts have a ranged attack.

Yes true on the Krayts, I was just trying to give an idea of what could potentially happen with high level creatures Ok, a Rancor then, or a really really nasty npc, etc etc.

Some thoughts for your wonderfully thought out comments:

1) you are right, there will be exploits, however, maybe making them require MASTER ranger for some of the most sophisticated traps will do well

2) Make the same trap only affect a creature, say, twice. Most animals in nature dont fall for the same traps over and over again

3) I do agree with some traps being inaccessable in combat, i think leave the scout traps as they are, make the ranger traps some in combat, some out. I'd like to see a "Net" which would be like an improved Adhesive Mesh. That to me would be useful for IN combat, especially when you gotta get away from something big.

4) Lure will make Rangers far more useful. Again, i think it should be reserved for MASTER rangers since this will be a powerful trap and should not be easily accessable.

Great comments guys, keep them comin

also, traps in PvP should not be a big focus, we're not a PvP class by any means. I think they should have some effect on NPC's, but only if the ranger is of high level...

--Kling, Ranger

Being able to only be used on the same creature twice is another good possibility. And yes, to clarify, I mean Ranger traps should not be used when in combat mode, Scout traps and the like which are thrown definately need to stay that way.

The one thing is regarding the making it a Master Ranger only requirement...here is my thought on that. Holo and the devs have openly stated that even the Masters of Elite professions should never, ever, be able to solo a red con. And, in fact, they are making nerfing passes and adjusting creature values over the next few patches to ensure this balance is in place. That means, without limits, even if our best traps are Master Ranger only, they will get whacked with the soft bat sooner or later

But yes, either limits on how many times you can affect a single creature, or limits on how many traps you can have deployed will work fine. And for those thinking: well what if you get a group of master rangers together and, even with the limits, spam the creature with traps. My answer is, thats not a problem, because thats what the devs want...a group of players taking out the red con creatures. Just because we'd do it with traps doesn't mean its any less valid than just spamming with a weapon. I'm just concerned about solo ability potential here.

And yes, I think the lure will be the most valuable of traps, but due to its very nature, I don't think we need to worry much about limits being put on it.

"And by red cons, I mean what would show as red if you were maxed out as a combat profession, not what would con red if you didn't have any other combat skills(ie the really tough mobs)"

Ahh, thanks for that clarification. Now I totally agree with you 100% on all points.

Yeah, its hard to be exact regarding creature difficulty with the variable conning system. Holo, at one point, put up a list of creatures that at thatdifficulty level and higher, the devs feel no person should *ever* be able to solo without some assistance. I don't have that list handy, but thats what I mean by red con...ie stuff that no matter what you skill combination is, will always be red.

Personaly I think its daft to say we have no place in PvP and then go out of our way to limit our effectiveness in PvE. Personaly I would much rather see PvP stuff out into place...but Im pretty sure the class will always killing bocatts and hurton. I dont use a pet, and killing anything that isnt a step above yard trash is difficult. The devs arent exactaly a over-eager bunch, I think they will give us what we want without making us Gods among PvErs.

Omega,

Bah!, you're chaning my mind for me again. 8)

You're absolutely correct that if we an unfair disadvantage in PvP then we should get an equal but opposite unfair advantage in PvE vs other elite classes...

We'll have to see how conceal and rescue and traps vs pets play out before we go too far with our requests though and I'll stick with Rifleman/CH for now as my balance.

I'm almost thinking that a couple of the new traps should have some damage incorporated with them. Nothing major, but it's not unrealistic to see 200-400ish from a bear trap (maybe even a bleed?). Have you ever had a limb caught in one? I guarantee a real bear trap would snap a frail squall in half, not just root it. I'm hesitant on suggesting damage on a tripwire, maybe something nominal.

While it would be cool, it's probably unrealistic to consider soloing an animal with traps in this game. I just like the possibility of having more direct offense as a ranger, instead of lying solely on a combat skill.

Bah!

I'm a Master Ranger, I should have some way to take down a herd of bol runners solo and still get to harvest without spending 3 hours drawing voritor lizards to the bol den (then not getting anything to harvest because the voritors did too much of the damage or I can't get close enough to the corpse to harvest because it's too dangerous - ZKull and Uraaz[? Is that the right name, I forget, it was late] know what I mean 8) )

Without being maxxed in another advanced profession such as one of the marksman (I'm going to need a new laser rifle after this hunting trip now BTW, there goes another 13k credits) the cost in resources to make the traps should cost less but not tons less than the economic benefit of having killed those 3 bols.

When I'm talking cost there is the value of the hides, bone, meat (which cost me traps and rifle decay and a lot of time), metal, polymer, etc that are used to make the traps(which I either have to buy or maintain a harvester for or waste hours sampling that I could have been hunting sqaualls), the cost to repair or replace my rifle, the cost to get the new rifle sliced so I can do enough damage quickly enough, travel costs, cost of stims and vitality packs for my deathblowed pet that was helping... c'mon here, the 5k I got paid for that one mission is not worth 3 hours and nothing to show for it except the chance to /examine the critter and get faulty and incomplete information, and if I do get to harvest one of those bols, I'm betting their hide is 195 decay resistant and 203 overall quality or something else so rediculiously poor making the 5k I spent to travel to Dantooine from Rori really worth it, eh?

I don't think that anyone who understands the cost/benefit ratio could fairly call this "ability" to solo a bantha or heard of bols or whatever high-level mob an exploit, but I guess we'll have to go on letting all of the ninja-harvesting noobs make tons more money killing squalls outside of the city (oh, and now with the 60% split a group of 10 pistoleer/novice scouts... what are the ramifications of that?)

I'm losing all this money, my pet's vitality, my weapons, etc in the same timeframe an architect is making 100k from the safety of the cantina or his factory 8} That's one way to keep the profession elite and unique I guess.

I've trapped in real life and I can totally agree thata bear trap, even without teeth, can be devastating to any animal that stumbles into it (usually a bobcat or skunk). I mean we're talking anything from a snapped limb, to a decapitated critter. Ugly, crude devices.

If in fact rangers get a "bear trap" there needs to be some kind of reality to it. Big traps=big animals or destroyed (i.e. not harvestable) smaller animals. On the same hand, small traps=small animals or one REALLY mad larger animal. Sure this won't affect a combat situation, but it will add a bit of randomness (not to mention an ounce of fear) to checking the trap.

Ok, when I say solo I'm including a pet in the mix.

Rangers should be able to solo even a red con mob at a very high cost since it's part of our very nature to try, though like I said not effectively against a big bad mob.

Of course, if the Ahazi Ranger Guild (ARG) or whatever name we come up with get a Dantooine hunting trip together, we should be able to take down a dozen bols in an hour rether than the one I want to be able to do solo in that hour and get to harvest, that is assuming they give decent hide 8}