Ranger Archive
Thread: Harvesting Changes New Thread (Flamers beware, you will not be tolerated).
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Calculus_Entropy
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:17 am
#1
Let's try this again. This thread is discuss the new harvesting changes. Opposing viewpoints are welcome, but just because you don't agree with someone doesn't mean youshould star them or flame them. I will report everyone who flames and request that the offending post be deleted (I will not flame either). Fighting accomplishes nothing but to prove that we are not worthy of a revamp becuase we can't control ourselves when we get one change.
Having said that, remember that Tiggs said this change is NOT for Rangers (it is for the entire harvesting community) when making your posts.
darmokVtS
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:23 am
#2
Long things short:
The numbers (testdata) are there, the fact that we know that the current group-mods we give to our group end up with unacceptable results is known.
What we now need instead of discussing this to death with not a single new point (see the locked thread for reference
) is dev-feedback about our observations and results.
- Are our concerns even valid in their opinion
- if so, which of the already named options to adress those concerns will be picked if any
- if none of our possible solutions will be used, which will be used
Before this I do not see a point in further discussing this matter tbh.
The numbers (testdata) are there, the fact that we know that the current group-mods we give to our group end up with unacceptable results is known.
What we now need instead of discussing this to death with not a single new point (see the locked thread for reference
) is dev-feedback about our observations and results.- Are our concerns even valid in their opinion
- if so, which of the already named options to adress those concerns will be picked if any
- if none of our possible solutions will be used, which will be used
Before this I do not see a point in further discussing this matter tbh.
Jasse
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:31 am
#4
Hi everybody, this is an imortant topic to me so even though you've all discussed this up and down, just wanted to say I'm for the removal of the group penalty, and for the addition of ranger bonuses. And at the moment I like thegroup bonus (20%),if it deters solo-grouping (making people stick together in real groups) I'm for it. Time will show if it has an effect.
I see dave's point that groups do have a lot of inherent advantages already, but as my playstyle involves grouping with "serious" RPers and/or good group hunters this change is truly music in my ears - egotistical maybe but hey aren't we all.
I have read the whole thread now (phew) and I have failed to see any mention of the followingangle on the whole thing(or forgot it reading alot of discussions on who insulted who
):
):The ranger bonusis not a bonus to the ranger, its a bonus theranger gives to others. So this is actually something that will increase the value of a ranger to other players, and hence your value as a ranger in the comunity. Now people will come to me to ask for hunting help, and I'll be able to chose if I want to help them or not. I can hunt by myself as always if I don't like the group, but I'll miss the 20% bonus they give me and the increased kill speed/higher end missions etc. They, all of them, will miss 20% EACH (40% - 20% for being a group - note you don't give a group 40% they already have 20%) if they don't manage to get a MR with them.
They will miss out on 10% with a non-master ranger, so you might say a non-master ranger, missing out on 20% if not in a group, has a bigger relative incentive to group with others and hence is not in as strong a bargaining position as the MR - I could take 5% of the increase they get as payment and they still get 5% more than when grouping with a non-master ranger. Now for the argument on the 20% group thing which I think is what bugs Dave et al. the most (correct me if I'm wrong please), that needs to be there I think or the 40% bonus ofMR is an insane bargaining chip. This could of course be lowered (0% grouped, 10% ranger 20% MR) but personally I like the addedthorn in the side to solo-groupers. Sidethought - a group with a non-master ranger approaches me, now I have a 10% bonus to give to each of them ( 20% to the non-master ranger as he only gets 20% from the group ), and they have a 30% increase to give to me, and I can't ask them to kick the non-master ranger without consequence as that'sa 10% reduction for me,and he can't refuse me totaly as I have 20% to offer him- hehe I like the dynamics of this alot methinks truly brings out the multiplayer in MMORPG doesn't it.
truly brings out the multiplayer in MMORPG doesn't it.Several MR will be a killer combo for harvesting though - call your MR mates now people - two master rangers and the template people are redundant in a hunting party (except for kill speed ofcourse).
This is also related to the CURB sort of, where more advanced/dynamiccombat (point 1 of the CURB high level goals), more group reliance (point 2).
So Dave et. al. I am afraid this game is moving more towards grouping anyway you twist it (granted, time will show...), so this is one step in that direction, along with the sologroup "have to be close to get money" nerf (did that get properly implemented? haven't sologrouped in ages so...)?
BIG /tiphat to those that worked us Rangers into the equation on this one.
It's a welcome change to me as I, a ranger in a PA, will now be a much more valuable hunting asset to my clan, instead of someone who harvests less than thetemplate guysanyway.....and now that they will need to come to me maybe I can againhave the fun of beeing a hunt leader where they follow me, I track wild spawns etc. fun fun fun - hate mission grinding, doesn't feel like hunting at all. I do this with friends now and have been angered by the penalty for some time. I seem to remember master rangers asking for a role in the game wanting to feel needed, not just a slightly better harvester outdone by templates anyhow, if this isn't a step in the right direction I don't know.
I agree that in the specific and somewhat narrow example of a group of one MR and one Ranger 0040 - remember that in a larger group you as MR will be the one giving the effective bonus, and the non-master ranger is actually giving you a 10% increase over a group of "regulars"- should give the ranger the edge (which will of course alsowill apply in the larger groups).
Obata'snice little formula shows us that there are two ways of doing this:
1.either increase the percentage the non-master ranger gives relative to the MR, a complete no-no imo. That difference needs to be there for us masters, not much else to show for it is there?
2. or increase the CHB of a MR compared to a non-master (either up it in the MR box, or move some CHB points from the other boxes to the MR box). Giving us even more of an incentive to stay MR.
Sorry to see the thread deteriorate somewhat though, not going anywhere near commenting on who flames who or anythig like that. Thats up to you guys to sort out, but maybe not in this thread?
Feel free to comment on anything I've said - I do not pretend to be a master of the workings of this game.....
Beertime!
frightwig
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:43 am
#5
- My suggestion:
- That a group harvest % increase be tied to your creature harvesting modifier.
- Maintain the 64m rule to discourage solo grouping.
- Not dependent on the profession you are grouped with.
- It would encourage investing skill points in the hunting/harvesting lines to fully take advantage of the maximum amount you can harvest, no matter who you are grouped with.
- Would encourage grouping, across the board, to increase your normal harvesting amount.
- Would increase the supply of creature organics.
- If not dependent on who you are grouped with, a grouped 0040 ranger might be able to outharvest an ungrouped master ranger.
- (But at the same time (on the good side), a master ranger doesn't have to find another master ranger to group with. His "maximum" harvest ability ungrouped, will simply be increased by allowing anyone to group with him).
- Good:
- Bad:
Message Edited by frightwig on 02-22-2005 10:19 AM
GraySeven
Tue Feb 22, 2005 7:52 am
#6
I like the changes. However, any bonusesa Master Rangergives to others should still not increase their harvested amounts above what a Master Ranger can do on his own.
Also, the incentive to group hunt needs to work both ways.
Why is it hard to believe that everyone in a group benefit from having a Master Ranger? I know a fishing guide who set up a fish cleaning assembly line for his charter groups that quickly and efficiently cleaned a mess of very large saltwater gamefish. Had we all been cleaning "solo" I'm sure we'd still be there covered in scales and blood and smelling like shark-bait (Shark-bait ooh haha!).
It does the Dev team no good to encourage others to group with the Ranger only to see the Ranger uninterested because it puts him out of business...
Lancesod
Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:07 am
#7
After having now pondered about the changes in TC I have come to the conclusion that I am neutral and a little curious about the change.
Granted, if the current changes go live a dabbler will get a few units more than MR in a group, but they have to find a MR first and be close to him. Personally I do not see any of the changes such that would bring about a huge influx of new Master Rangers therefore Masters will remain a rarity.
Also the incentive to group is indeed a big one even without any rangers nowhere to be seen - 20% may be enough to get a few more scouts to find people to group with. This is fine with me.
A few more dabblers might emerge, since it may make sense to transform a scout to a 0040 ranger, but I doubt that there will be too many of these. Flesh business has never been appealing to large crowds, it is not as 'exiting' as killing NPC's and getting loot from them.
What brought me back from my negative feelings was the following:
1. I can group with my wife/alt and her being an MS soon (and probably a dabbler ranger too to reap the benefits of the change) I can get the full benefit. Now I can take her with me and not think that I am faster alone, even though we always pile the resources we get.
2. I can now group with my friends and not be penalized in harvesting, infact I will get a bonus! So what if my friend gets a bigger bonus, mayhap he has more to learn from me than I have from him. Or if that friend does not have harvesting skills, I still get a bonus to hunt with him.
3. If this is a contest of 'Who harvests the most', I still have the skill I have amassed during the 7 months as a Master Ranger so far (yeah, I am a fledgling, sp?), therefore I will have an edge over anyone who has not harvested millions and millions of units already in the past.
4. I always welcome almost any kind of change - in reality I like changes. I just got lost in the feeling that it was unfair to give more harvest to a dabbler than to a true Master when harvesting grouped - I got over it. In fact I think they may fix it for live, if they don't it is not such a biggie.
What it boils down to is that when I ask myself: Will it still be fun to play a ranger after the change? I can honestly say that, yup it will probably be more fun than before since group penalty is gone. The impact to economy will be interesting to see and also other effects this modification may have. Any change makes life more interesting than a status quo that lasts forever. It is not like we could get exitement from the storyline of the game and the events that are arranged by SOE.
I have used hunting to fund my habits quickly and efficiently, but with this change I may reconsider and do it for fun too or maybe have more fun doing it. At least there is not a single reason not to give it a try. I will have to experience this change first hand for a few months and then I know how it turned out.
BR/~~L
Granted, if the current changes go live a dabbler will get a few units more than MR in a group, but they have to find a MR first and be close to him. Personally I do not see any of the changes such that would bring about a huge influx of new Master Rangers therefore Masters will remain a rarity.
Also the incentive to group is indeed a big one even without any rangers nowhere to be seen - 20% may be enough to get a few more scouts to find people to group with. This is fine with me.
A few more dabblers might emerge, since it may make sense to transform a scout to a 0040 ranger, but I doubt that there will be too many of these. Flesh business has never been appealing to large crowds, it is not as 'exiting' as killing NPC's and getting loot from them.
What brought me back from my negative feelings was the following:
1. I can group with my wife/alt and her being an MS soon (and probably a dabbler ranger too to reap the benefits of the change) I can get the full benefit. Now I can take her with me and not think that I am faster alone, even though we always pile the resources we get.
2. I can now group with my friends and not be penalized in harvesting, infact I will get a bonus! So what if my friend gets a bigger bonus, mayhap he has more to learn from me than I have from him. Or if that friend does not have harvesting skills, I still get a bonus to hunt with him.
3. If this is a contest of 'Who harvests the most', I still have the skill I have amassed during the 7 months as a Master Ranger so far (yeah, I am a fledgling, sp?), therefore I will have an edge over anyone who has not harvested millions and millions of units already in the past.
4. I always welcome almost any kind of change - in reality I like changes. I just got lost in the feeling that it was unfair to give more harvest to a dabbler than to a true Master when harvesting grouped - I got over it. In fact I think they may fix it for live, if they don't it is not such a biggie.
What it boils down to is that when I ask myself: Will it still be fun to play a ranger after the change? I can honestly say that, yup it will probably be more fun than before since group penalty is gone. The impact to economy will be interesting to see and also other effects this modification may have. Any change makes life more interesting than a status quo that lasts forever. It is not like we could get exitement from the storyline of the game and the events that are arranged by SOE.
I have used hunting to fund my habits quickly and efficiently, but with this change I may reconsider and do it for fun too or maybe have more fun doing it. At least there is not a single reason not to give it a try. I will have to experience this change first hand for a few months and then I know how it turned out.
BR/~~L
darmokVtS
Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:12 am
#8
Calculus_Entropy wrote:Having said that, remember that Tiggs said this change is NOT for Rangers (it is for the entire harvesting community) when making your posts.
When looking at that specific part again I end up with the following btw.:
Go back to the intial 20% for everyone version, without an old core ranger issues resolved (higher creature harvest skillmod has not a big enough effect on actually harvested amounts) - which won't be with this publish as we see from that line - the bonus we can give to a group would need to be reduced so much that it's not worth putting any dev time on it.
So, just ditch the skillbox based bonuses to groups *for now* (and get back to them at a later point where the above named old issue can be addressed too), case closed :-).
While I do understand that people are all excited to finally see patchnotes containing the word "Ranger" or even the words "Master Ranger", there is no way to put in *decent* harvestbonuses we can give to a group without enabling others in our group to outharvest us as long as the general issue around the creature harvesting skillmod is not adressed.
Message Edited by darmokVtS on 02-22-2005 04:17 PM
Fred_Skinner
Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:17 am
#9
frightwig wrote:My suggestion:
- That a group harvest increase be tied to your creature harvesting modifier.
- Maintain the 64m rule to discourage solo grouping.
- Not dependent on the profession you are grouped with.
Good:
- It would encourage investing skill points in the hunting/harvesting lines to fully take advantage of the maximum amount you can harvest, no matter who you are grouped with.
- Would encourage grouping, across the board, to increase your normal harvesting amount.
Bad:
- If not dependent on who you are grouped with, a grouped 0040 ranger might be able to outharvest an ungrouped master ranger.
- (But at the same time (on the good side), a master ranger doesn't have to find another master ranger to group with. His "maximum" harvest ability ungrouped, will simply be increased by allowing anyone to group with him).
First: Holy Cow! You guys sure made a mess!
Second: I like this idea, or some form of it. What I think we all agree is harvesting ability should scale up according to the one with the highest ability, but not make somone harvest better then the one with the highest ability, that is clear. Only problem now is an algorythm that will do this correctly. It is obvious now that this is not the case with the current one proposed on TC.
At this point, it may be a dev issue to come up with one that they can live with in the code. I'm not sure we can really contribute anything other then suggest what the new algorythm would look like.
Idea # 1: Just let the ranger have his own bonus. I'm a programmer, this is really the easiest to deal with solution. Now, what you might have to do is alter the actual % value around till the devs are comfortable with the new volume produced. imho, however, there is not near enough volume, even by an order of magnitude, in the market. I feel the markets are really THAT starved of animal resources. 200cr/u anyone???? I don't see the problem with 40%.
Idea # 2: Differential Enhancement. This is going to take a complex formula to do, but each harvestor gets a proprtional boost with the lowest guy getting the best enhancement to a lower boost for the next highest, none or a fixed boost for the highest. The formula would be such that you cannot possible have a boost that surpasses the actual yield that the highest harvestor gets. I have an idea how this would look like, but I need to push around some numbers first (might take a day or 2). Basically, you get a boost that will get you cloaser to the highest harvestors ability but not over.
JokitoRoyo
Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:49 am
#10
As I have stated in varios threads. I am a solo hunter. If there is a bonus to group harvesting or isn't; it will do little to change my play style. I like the fact that the devs are showing us some love. I think it is nice and well overdue.
There seem to be some inadequacies in the way the group binus is applied. I would have loved to test this on TC-Gorath as it is my home but for whatever reason my playschedule seemed to coincide with the server downtime perfectly. One way to address the harvesting differential is to give the MR a bonus to harvesting boost over all, or just let us loot all resources. (I will keep asking for it till it happens or I stop playing)
I also like the fact that I might be able to help out my PA from time to time. That is when they aren't at " the villiage" or some other FS jamboree.
Jasse
Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:59 am
#11
In a group you get 20% as a MR (or 30%/40% if you're with another non-master/master Ranger) isn't that incentive?
You'll still be harvesting the most in the group (except the 0040 ranger exception - can be tweeked, see my above post).
I won't go either way on the MR solo versus others in groups - I think the devs want to encourage groups so...
Don't know if all these figures ave been presented or if they match test data, but If the formula presented by Otaba is correct
- two novice rangers or above in a group will outharvest a solo MR (1.55*1.3=2.015 vs. 2.0)
- a single 0020 ranger or above in a group will outharvest a solo MR (1.70*1.2=2.04 vs. 2.0)
-a 0040 ranger will outharvesta MR inthe group(2.66 vs. 2.6)
The third one I don't like the other two ...dunno if you tweek to correct the third one, the others should look a little better too methinks?
JascoSmlee
Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:02 am
#12
Right now, the only problem I have with the proposed new system isthe case where a Master Ranger groups with a 0040 Ranger and gets out harvested by them. This should not be the case.
Phenix1050
Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:25 am
#13
First off, I'd like to say that DaveG and Dariane had a valid point.Their concern over the future of solo Rangers is justified, especially considering that under the propsed system, a grouped 0040 scout would out-harvest a Master Ranger. This change may be aimed at the entire harvesting community, but Rangers are the elites of the harvesting community meaning that while the change may not be solely for us, it should benefit us significantly. Here's how I would do things:
- Beef up the harvesting rate of a Master Ranger significantly- such that it's 20-25%% more than an 0040 Ranger
- Remove the harvesting Penalty
- Add a 5% bonus to anyone in range of a Master Scout
- add a 10% bonus to when within 64m of a novicer Ranger
- add a 20% bonus when withing 64m of a Master Ranger
I feel that this is what is best for the harvesting community. Because in my system, a Master Ranger would only be able to be out-harvested by a grouped Master Ranger, meaning there is still room for solo play, which is good. You still encourage grouping, but there isn't as large a relative penalty to non-groupers. I also think that this addresses the main concerns that caused the developers to look at this. It encourages grouping and gets more resources into the community. This system would help the entire harvesting community, since they'd be getting somewhere between 40 and 60% more than they do now. But making people able to harvest 80% more than they can now when in a group is kinda silly. That's a HUGE amount of organics.
I realize this is supposed to be for the entire harvesting community, but I look at it like this: the Elite profession should ALWAYS be more in demand. When you're looking for someone to heal you, a Novice Medic can do it and a novice doctor can do it, but it's always going to be better to go out with a Master Doctor. The same should hold true in any aspect of the game. If you're going out, finding a master of some profession should always help you.
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