Ranger Archive
Thread: What can we do for you, Owen?
BioEngine wrote:
I have seen you become, well, a little darker, and I do not like what they (Devs) have done to cause this.
I will work tirelessly at whatever task you assign me. There must be something that we can do to, at the very least, bring fixes to the bugs that plague our profession so. I am afraid that they will simply wait until the revamp to fix any bugs, and I do not think we should tolerate that. I have a photographic memory, and an ability to produce logical lists of cause and effect relationships between issues that deserve attention. I will do whatever is necessary to create a thorough essay of what is broken in our profession, if you would have me do so. I will make it my sworn duty to find a way to make them listen, because it is painfully obvious that they are not.
My data entry and internet research skills are at your disposal.
Well said....I will assist as well.
- None of the Devs have replied to Owen about anything. They haven't even told him if our Camo modifier is based ona a percentage or a numbered check against other creatures / npcs.
- Not enough testing time has been allowed for these changes, to the people who pay SOE to test their own game for them.
- Traps do not apply their intended states, and there is no visible sign of the states that are supposed to be applied, except for the P-Dart.
- Rescue does not work at all, because /peace, being a previously imposed requirement for it to work, has been removed from the game.
- Camo kits do not work against aggressive creatures. They are instantly broken. Same with Mask Scent.
- Creature knowledge still does not show the resists, effectiveness, or special attacks of creatures.
- Camps have not repelled aggressive creatures, like they are stated as having the function of, for years.
- We do not have the ability to forage a rare item, which the description on 0200 of Ranger states.
- Creature to hit and damage bonuses do not apply with the new attack layout.
And now, here's the reply I left in the discussion forum for Publish 17
BioEngine wrote:
With this change, camo and mask scent will no longer be necessary for people above CL 50 on a majority of planets, non-Rangers/Scouts included. Most of the creatures I've seen that are "wild" spawns are rarely above CL 35, so even a single combat mastery would find it easy to go unnoticed. What this also means is that the themeparks or caves that have many nasty creatures will have to be beefed up above CL 80 so that they still have trouble with the aggro radius.
Does this also mean that our Camo kits will be pointless against anything higher than our level because they will constantly break, and pointless against anything lower because they are conning grey?
This, I feel, removes the necessity for personal concealment. It actually reinforces the ability for crafters to just group with a CL 80 toon and avoid all creatures that would be near their harvesters. Is there a requirement for the CL 80 member to be within 45 meters of the others to give them the benefit of the level adjustment to that of the group's highest member?
We have been completely replaced, and here is the documentation to prove it
- Camo:Riflemen Cover, Jedi Force Cloak, anyone with a Rangerbuddy to make'em for them
- Mask Scent:See above
- Creature Harvesting:Harvesting droids, packs oflow-level scouts with Veghash,and the new creature-harvesting attachments
- Rescue: "Pass-through assist." See Tuesday's Tips in the Game Guide forum for thisdescription.
- Traps: Every profession getting "mezzing" and"snaring" effects.
- Camps: Pfft, no one gets wounded like they used to, and that's all theyare good foranyways.
- Terrain Negotiation: Attachments, BE tissues, Chef Food: Travel Biscuit, otherprofessionswith the same modifier.
- Creature Knowledge: Everyone sees the same f'ing things now! Also, on another note forCreature Knowledge, everyone sees the "con" level of the creature next toit's name. When we examine them, though, we see a "difficulty level" thatis usually different than their "conning" level.
- Creature to-Hit bonus:Chef Food: Gralynin Juice
- Creature to-damage bonus:+5? That's not even worth mentioning anymore.
And, lets see this again shall we? From the full set of notes of Publish 17.
- As a player becomes higher in level than an NPC or creature, the aggro radius vs. the AI becomes smaller. A gray con will never aggro. The exception to this is Imperial and Rebel NPC enemies who will still have a full aggro radius.
- Added fly-text over creatures and NPCs when players are in the aggro radius of the AI in cases when the creature/NPC sees you re-capacitate (get up after being incapacitated, but not dead yet). This means you have a small amount of time to get away from the creature or NPC to prevent re-aggro.
- Creature damage ranges are now larger but average damage done remains the same. This was done to help tankers take less damage on average than the other professions so they may better fulfill their role in combat.
- Camouflage Kits are now usable by non-Rangers. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar.
- Krayt Dragons have had their difficulty increased.
- A recipe for traveling Kashyyyk with enhanced stealth has been devised. See Achonnko in the Rryatt Trail for more details.
- The "Cover" command should work correctly now.
A player that moves during a command warm-up will get a message saying the command has been canceled, and the warm-up timer will be removed.
They are trying to make us unnecessary. Who is going to do something about this? I wish JB was still the Scout correspondent.
So, here you have it.
All of our traps are bugged, yet the professions who have received our states as a special attack complain that they are too powerful in PvP.
Our creature bonuses to hit and damage do not work, because they only function with the regular attack button which has been removed.
Rescue doesn't work, because /peace was a requirement and there is no more /peace command.
I'm a Master Ranger, yet a CL 32 huurton instantly breaks my mask scent and attacks me at the same time when I pass quickly within 30 meters of it.
Camo kits do not work much better, either.
Owen has not received any communication whatsoever from the Devs about our camo bonuses being percentage based or a check modifier.
Why is it that we can't even get our bugs fixed before they start handing the abilities that are bugged out to other professions? No one had enough time to test this on Test Center before they pushed it to live.
Message Edited by BioEngine on 05-26-2005 06:31 PM
Message Edited by BioEngine on 05-26-2005 06:34 PM
Message Edited by Goldear on 05-26-200502:29 PM
Message Edited by Goldear on 05-26-2005 02:30 PM
Message Edited by Goldear on 05-26-2005 02:35 PM
Heh, we shall bury them under bulleted lists
mindtrigger wrote:
I don't really get too fired up about it until we start to enumerate the problems
in list form. lol. Then I get pissed.
AragornSoS wrote:
Maximus_Bane -
I think the point you're missing is that yes, Rangers have always had to "craft" things - these are all self-use items that are completely geared towards survival, and largely to survival of the individual. HOWEVER... Rangers have never been a "Crafter class" whose whole point is to craft items for OTHERS to use. Those classes have their basis in Artisan. Ranger and Scout craft SELF USE items (camps, traps, camo kits) that are geared enterly towards the wilderness survival / personal concealment / "uber hunter" concept that the Ranger profession is supposed to represent.
What you are currently talking about is most CERTAINLY a skill. Wayfaring one grants 3 schematics (camo kits for the noob planets) AND the /conceal skill. Now that everyone in the game can use a camo kit off the button bar, and no longer HAS to invest the 88 points required to earn the /conceal skill... yes, we have most certainly lost a unique Ranger skill. One of the few remaining skills that were unique to the profession, and one that held great potential for the revamp.
I'd also argue the point that "any idiot" can set up a tent or apply camo, having built a 1,200 person tent city in the deserts of Jordan IRL in less than 2 weeks. And sure, anyone can smear on goop from a camo stick, but someone with training and practice and skill is going to do a WHOLE lot better job. I mean, my 3 year old daughter can "put on" her mom's makeup too, and I guess that works, if your name is Bozo.
If you actually knew anything about what you were posting about regarding asking for skills, you'd realize that the Ranger community has about TWO YEARS worth of proposals and ideas that are VERY well developed and fleshed out in incredible detail. We've been laying the foundation for the Ranger revamp for quite some time, yet we still don't actually know when (or even if) that revamp is actually going to happen. In THAT regard, we're probably worse off than our Smuggler bretheren, who at least have a couple of "In Concept" posts that talk about their supposed revamp. (Don't get me wrong tho, they along with SL are also in need of a revamp!). This particular change is NOT something Rangers asked for or wanted, nor will it really do anything to solve the crafter issue that is REALLY tied to the CL system and damange multipliers based on CL differences. If you think getting an occasional 1-hit incap is bad, try wearing camo WITHOUT the +100 mods from Master Ranger. If it breaks on ME all the time, and I draw instant agro when it breaks... just think what'll happen to all those poor CL1 crafters who try and use this and find it breaking all the time and drawing even MORE agro to them. This was not the solution, that's what Rangers have been trying to get through to people since this was announced several days ago, but we've not even got acknowledgement of any of the issues we've raised on our own or through our Corr.
As far as others doing things better than Rangers... that's just it, they already do. The mouseover info on radar pretty much makes areatrack useless if you consider all the bugs with areatrack and changes introduced with the CU. People with multiple combat professions who only dabble in scout can pull in more harvest over time than a Master Ranger can (especially if they group and use hash or a droid). Camping is largely useless since the change that allowed anyone to pull bikes or pets anywhere or heal just with a droid. TN mods in ranger count strictly towards crawl speed, so anyone with some Scout plus some bio clothes can run as fast as a Ranger can (which IMHO is wrong). As for anything else, well... there ISN'T anything else in Ranger to speak of. There are no specials, there are no weapon certs, the two ranger traps have been useless since long before the CU hit, most of the scout traps are currently buggy and not working correctly (or not providing any tangible benefit). Other professions have "top 10" lists that point to single items that might be bugged, or a skill that isn't working quite as intended, or some enhancement they'd like. Ranger has entire trees (that's multiple, not one, but several) that are almost 100% worthless for anything other than role-play or to the most die-hard of folks who REALLY want to be a MASTER Ranger. Most of the Ranger skills were already buggy and some are completely broken due to changes with the CU.
And to those who say "Stop crying, take one for the team, at least you have something else to sell other than tracking and organics"... we don't NEED something to sell, and after watching skill after skill get farmed out to other professions or patched into obsolescence, I think we've taken quite enough "for the team". We're not a crafter class, we're not merchants. I (and most Rangers) do quite well simply taking an occassional hunting or tracking contract. I have no need for another source of income, and certainly not one that's currently as broken and misaligned to what it's intended to be fixing as camo kits are going to be. You're entitled to your opinions, as I am entitled to mine. I think it's a fair statement tho, that the majority of the Ranger community is (and remains) against this change, and all that it represents. I very much hope we do hear from the devs, or TH or Tiggs or SOMEONE, and are able to get some of the many questions we have answered.
*edited for spelling*
Message Edited by AragornSoS on 05-26-2005 04:57 PM
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Eavik wrote:
Maximus_Bane wrote:
Fine your not crafters. Next patch they can move all your camps and camo kits to the artisan trees so you won't be burdened with crafting them. You'll just be responsible for collecting the materials for them. That make you feel better? Didn't think so.
Try to look outside the box of your proffesion and request new skills be added. What we're currently talking about is a tool not a skill. Making the kits is a skill. The kit itself is not. Currently anyone can wear them just like anyone could be buffed, you just have to put them on for them.
Do you want to put every kit on your group or guild or would you rather hand them out and say use em when you need to. Do you want to be like docs were, sitting around in the starports applying camo kits? The things arn't that useful to begin with. You are complainig over the wrong thing. How about asking for your Camps to actually have some real bennefits. Increased defenses , mission terminals, faster regeneration to health pool, faster wound heals. How about skills that actually relate to survival.
Any idiot can set up a tent or smear camo on there face in the real world but few people can actually survive in the wild. I think that ranger needs skills that make them important, but sorry a little camo kit aint it.
Currently the game is trending towards sharing of weapons so that as a rifleman i cna carry carbines and pistols. That is equipment, not skills. I don't get carbine specials miracously when i'm given a carbine to use. Just like your proffesion people are give the ability to use some of your equipment. That dosn't mean they can area track, harvest better than they could, cross terrain better or lay down one of the big camps. Those are skills they're not giving them to people.
If you feel so stringly about it, don't make the camo kits for people, but don't pick up a rifle or a carbine if your not either of those proffesion. That would make you a hypocrite. Or is that ok because it only affects the uniqueness of someone elses proffesion?
Very well said! Couldn't agree more.
As a Ranger, I seem to be in the minority, but I have absolutely no problem with this change to camouflage. I'm really struggling to understand why some people do have a problem with it.
I certainly don't understand the whole "I'm a ranger, not a crafter!" argument. We've always had to craft the camo kits. Why did this suddenly become an issue now? In fact 3 out of our 4 skill trees require crafting - camps, traps and camo kits. If you are a ranger, then yes - you absolutely are a crafter to some extent.
Some people seem to think they are being forced into some sort of merchant role having to sell and distribute camo kits. Again, I don't see the problem here either. If you don't want to be a merchant and sell your supplies, don't. What exactly have you lost? Everybody has always been able to wear camo - now you don't have to be there to apply it for them. That is a good thing!
This change hasn't hurt us at all - if anything, it has benefited us. As a Ranger, I've never bothered with camouflage kits. It was always too much of a pain to have to go track down very specific resources to craft camo kits for each planet, when I could just use mask scent instead with just as much - if not more success than the camo kits gave me. Now that camo kits actually have some kind of purpose for somebody in the game, I have a reason to actually make them. I've been running around each planet hunting these resources and having a blast with it. First time in two years that I've gotten any use out of that skill tree. How can I possibly complain?
While I still don't undertstand what the uproar is all about - consider this as a solution. Swap the Mask Scent skill with the Conceal skill. Meaning - give Scouts the ability to make and distribute the camo kits. Once you hit Ranger, you get the Mask Scent ability and no longer need to lug around crates of camouflage or hunt for those resources. You could move Mask Scent to Wayfaring 1 with a +50 mask scent modifier, and add +10 for each extra wayfaring box, and an extra +20 at Master Ranger. Having +100 at Master Ranger would mean Mask Scent would never break. That gives a benefit for going Master, rather than just dabbling - and it gives Rangers a unique skill that doesn't require crafting or resources. If Rangers are interested in making and selling the camo kits, they still could since the Scout skills are a pre-req for Ranger.
As a Ranger, I seem to be in the minority
You can say that again. Stop acting like you are speaking on behalf of the community. You are one of only two Ranger's I have seen that agree with this. Two.
I certainly don't understand the whole "I'm a ranger, not a crafter!" argument.
Yes we can clearly see that you don't get it. We have never stated that we don't craft certain items, and you and you're pal that you quoted are totally missing the point. There is NO other Elite profession still requiring mastery of a novice profession. We have to invest 140 skill points to Master Ranger, and now along comes the Dev team and say "Hey! Despite having to invest ZERO skill points in Ranger, you can use one of the few unique skills left in the Ranger profession".
Try to look outside the box of your proffesion and request new skills be added. What we're currently talking about is a tool not a skill. Making the kits is a skill. The kit itself is not. Currently anyone can wear them just like anyone could be buffed, you just have to put them on for them.
We don't need to look outside the box of this profession. We suggested EONS ago (and were ignored by the Devs) that our traps be allowed to root players. It would have given us more participation in combat and the GCW. We suggested EONS ago that our camo kits allow us to "take cover" and completely remove us from the Radar. This would have given us the ability to be advanced Recon units and again have more to do in the game. The Dev reply was that "Stealth will NEVER be in the game as it is TOO UNBALANCING". Now we have Jedi running around in Force Cloak, exploiting it by attacking while using it, and Rifleman now have this ability. With your ridiculous reasoning then, we Rangers, should be able to buff players (only to a lesser extent) and rez players (maybe they'll be groggy for 5 minutes instead of 60 seconds) as well as slice weapons. After all it's just tools not skill right?
How about you people step and see that taking skills from an Elite profession and giving them to anyone without any skill point investment is a BAD IDEA. The Dev team is sacrificing an Entire profession to appease people that aren't happy with the CL Damage modifier that was introduced with the CU. How about they fix that and stop destroying Rangers.
AragornSoS wrote:
Eavik wrote:
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Now players who have ZERO skill points invested in Ranger can use them. You don't even have to have MASTER SCOUT, which we STILL do, to use them.
This is nothing new. Everybody has always been able to wear camo kits, regardless of where their skill points were invested. The only difference is that we no longer have to apply the camo kits. Unless you had some odd business where you stood around cities spamming to apply camo to random people for credits, this change has no detrimental effect on you whatsoever. The change only benefits us Rangers, by giving us a new means to use one of our skills and make a few credits, if you are interested. If you're not interested - you've lost absolutely nothing.
Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of problems with the Ranger profession. Other than Smuggler, there is no other profession in the game that needs as much attention from the Devs as Ranger does. We need camps that actually serve a purpose. We need more than 1 trap that works. We need a set of Ranger combat specials, defense mods, and maybe some weapons certified only for Rangers like every other profession got. We need the ability to be able to "cloak" ourselves like riflemen and jedi can.
We don't need some stupid ability to run around applying camouflage to people. We've had that skill, and nobody used it or cared about up until this week. Now everybody acts like this was our most prized skill.
Eavik, that's the point. We had to invest 88 points just to be able to craft the first 3 of many kits, and earn the /conceal skill. 140 points if you wanted to craft the Dath kit and have the full set of + camo mods at Master Ranger. I don't see how you can NOT see that letting others APPLY the kits now without any SP investment is most assuredly giving away a skill that used to be the sole domain of the Ranger. Now every person in the game can effectively use the /conceal command without having to invest those 88 skill points. THAT is what we've lost. That, and the potential to build off the /conceal skill and camo kits when we eventually DO get a revamp. Do you really think that camo will allow for cloaking or radar invisibility while moving or anything like that, if every person in the game can use it off a toolbar? Do you really think we have a better chance of getting camo fixed and improved now that it's been farmed out to the masses?
Nobody is disagreeing with you that many, many things in Ranger need to be fixed. Nobody argued that camo wasn't broken, in fact that's been highlighted by many of us as a "be careful what you ask for, you might just get it" since it's currently largely broken, even for Master Rangers with great camo mods, it breaks - a lot. It's NOT going to solve the "CL1 crafter getting 1-hit incap" issue, if anything it's likely to make it worse for them when the camo continually breaks AND they are forced into combat AND can't reapply it for 20 or 30 seconds AND draw agro from most whatever is around them when it DOES break.
mindtrigger wrote:
A lot of what you guys are hearing from us Rangers about the camo kit is
frustration about the whole profession. The camo may seem trivial to other
people, but Rangers are trying to hold on to what little we have remaining.
As has been stated by many Rangers in this thread today, it has been all
TAKE and ABSOLUTE ZERO GIVE from SOE with our profession.
Really, no one here is kidding. 90%+ of the Ranger tree is broken, or
has been rendered impotent due to SOE's new policy of sharing attributes
between all the professions now. We were considered "outside the scope"
of the CURB, so we didn't get any new specials or cool abilities. We were
simply ignored. I have no idea how the brainiacs at SOE determined that
Rangers, who's main job is hunting and survival, were not a combat
class, yet CH is. Obviously our skills, if working correctly, easily cross
over for combat. You have to assume, due to lack of any other explanation,
that they simply chose to ignore Ranger class. Had they taken 5 minutes
to think about it, they would have seen how we fit into combat, or how we
COULD HAVE fit into combat with a couple fixes and tweaks.
To be perfectly honest, at this point I wish SOE would just kill the class
off, or fix it. I mean if they really have no intention of spending the time on
it, why even keep it going? A simple email to our correspondant would
be an INCREDIBLE BREAKTHROUGH at this point. How sad is that?
SickSix wrote:
Maximus_Bane wrote:
Line one of your retort was an insult that is as far off base as it gets.
Line two also was incorrect. you wanted to prove a point but you might want to pick the right metaphor.
Line three another insult, another incorrect one too. Hmm seems to me the Idiot here is you.
Have a nice day.
so, you say that what someone can make, all should be able use.... Then i ask you if you think i should be able to use doctor buffs(as a non doctor) and you say no? But someone as a non ranger should be able to use Camo?
as to calling you a communist. i think that's pretty acurrate for your post. If all i knew about you was that post, then it's obvious your completely against individualism. as you want no profession in this game to have any thing unique. everyone should be equal, no matter what.
oh, and I served, and am still serving my country too. Thanks for serving too, but it doesnt save you from being an idiot when it comes to SWG.
also, Owen does a great job. I commend him for his work. But, I also believe that it the Ranger communities "level headedness" and "civilised" manner that has put us in this situation to begin with. When your the queitest community, your going to be ignored. I get angry, and just dont fell like supressing it sometimes. Because sometimes people need to get angry. That's why i changed my signature. to let everyone know i'm an ANGRY ranger. i dont represent the Ranger community as a whole.
Rancorrider4 wrote:
Owen-Lars wrote:
Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar
This realy needs to change. I cant believe after all the feedback and discussion on this subject this change went live in its current form. Camo is a unique much loved ranger skill (although it has major issues preventing its regular usage) which in the ranger tree is extremely rare. Now this skill is being handed out to everyone without the slightest bit of compensations of even discussion from the dev side on this subject.
Even just changing the effects to mask scent instread of camo would suffice and leave ranger with their unique skill (camo) that hopefully can have its own issues addressed soon.
I'd like to thank Owen for taking such a calm and well mannered stance on this blatant nerf of whats left of the Ranger profession. Tiggs, why don't you and the developement team just scrap what little is left of Ranger and part it out to the other professions. BH's have been clamoring for our tracking skills for an eternity. You could just dispose of camps and save server space. Hunting and harvesting? Just give it to Scout. The Dev team has slowly destroyed the Ranger piece by piece over the last year and a half. We have submitted COUNTLESS different proposals, not the least of which was the Outdoorsman Proposal which was promptly filed under some of your other coffee and food stained documents from the Smugglers and Squad Leaders.
Your blatant disregard and destruction of a very enjoyable profession is saddening given how well mannered and articulate the Ranger community has been with you, and that is stating it as nicely as possible. Jedi shed one tear about something and they get a fix or a nerf to some other profession that could possibly affect them. The Ranger group has been patiently waiting and doing whatever you have asked of them and this is their reward. Just shoot us and put us out of our misery. This way you can more fully concentrate on the big money maker Jedi and other things that aren't even in the timeline that was originally rolled out with this game.
AragornSoS wrote:
ThrakenSal wrote:
Well My friend, you of all people should see that this is not as bad as it seems, the camo kits were pretty useless to start with. My Ranger alt tried them and found they broke faster than mask scent and were not as wonderful as you seem to think. I look at it this way, if I can make these and they work then great, if I can make these, they work and can sell them to folks to use, then all the better for us all. I mean Ranger is pretty much a useless skill any how, since camps have been made completely useless, traps do not work right anymore, camo is borked, and we get nothing in the way of GOOD weapons to use. I 'm not complaining, Area track is still pretty cool, if you can find anything around anymore. But if we can sell our goods to others to use and to protect the crafters, even just a small bit, then I think it's a good thing.
So you don't mind if the next publish gives everyone the ability to use smuggler tools do basic slices (but hey, you still have to see a smuggler if you want more than a basic slice with a better chance of a really great slice after all)? The fact is that Ranger was "outside the scope of the CU" and has watched almost every unique skill for Ranger handed out to other professions - more than ever now, we are literally nothing more than "Scout Plus". There were a tremendous number of posts on the Ranger forum (and Core Systems forum, until it got moved then deleted) about this change. Rangers were proposing alternatives to this that would hopefully NOT take elite skills away from any elite professions, and yet this goes live with little testing, and no feedback from the Devs. Admitedly camo was fairly broken at this point with all of the changes from the CU and the changes in AI and aggro in this patch, but now yet another "unique" and profession defining skill for Ranger has been handed out to everyone.
For 140SP invested, here's what I get:
a /rescue command that broke with the CU, since it requires a command that no longer exists to work correctly (/peace)
harvest mods that let me mostly be able to keep up with a double combat prof w/novice scout and hash and a droid (talking about total harvest over time)
camo that is largely broken, that I have to spend 140SP to even make the kits and get a +100 mod, but which anyone can now use without spending a single SP in anything remotely resembling a skill related to survival or concealment. And, before you say "well Armorsmiths can't wear armor", that's correct, they can't. But if *I* want to wear armor, I DO need to invest skills into at least a novice elite combat profession (and I better master or I'll be dealing with some very high armor encumbrances). Now we're giving out skills for agro avoidance/concealment (formerly requiring skill point investment in Scout and Ranger) to everyone in the game, regardless of where they've invested skills.
traps that do no damage and supposedly apply states, but really don't (they're broken or apply useless states that don't seem to do anything) and which are gated to PvE creature only. Meanwhile, many combat professions suddenly picked up new specials that DO apply states AND deal damage, and do it significantly better than Scout or Ranger traps do at the moment.
camps - well, I have nice eye candy. This might actually be one of the most beneficial things I have now, since if I'm willing to sit around in one, I can heal my own wounds without a doc around (and they're mighty hard to find these days)
/areatrack is largely useless. With most wild spawns coming in at levels considerably lower than my CL of 80, if I'm hunting for XP, /areatrack is currently useless. If I'm hunting for harvest, it's mildly useful, but I'm actually much better off tied to a mission terminal, since I get missions at my level, which actually provide XP, pay me for completion, AND offer a significantly higher organic harvest yield. We won't talk about the clunky interface, the fact that it can't be done mounted, the fact that it doesn't show you the CL of what you're tracking, the fact that the range never changes from Novice to Master Ranger, the fact that things like Transport Shuttles show up when tracking Animals, or the hole at roughly 100 or so meters where you can SEE the Krayt in game, but can't get it come come up on tracking.
TN mods that do nothing more than make me crawl faster (great if you're a rifleman like me, but worthless for anyone else)
As the personal concealment and wilderness survival specialists, we can at least drop off the... oh wait, no we can't. That's Jedi and Riflemen, isn't it.
Despite all of this, I *AM* still a Ranger. As many say, it's not a profession, it's a lifestyle. The best weapon I have is still the one between my ears. Despite having almost every profession unique skill we have handed out to others for free, we're still here. I have no intention of ever dropping Ranger unless it's removed from the game - it's what I've wanted to do since the day I started my first toon.
It IS rather frustrating though, to sit here and watch almost every skill we have either break due to poor planning and changes from the CU, or because someone forgot that the "out of scope" professions actually have skills that rely on certain comands, or be handed out to others for free. If someone wants to avoid agro, let them invest in Scout 2000 to get Maskscent or heck, move Maskscent to Noice scout to minimize the skill points required if it's THAT big an issue. What this is doing is watering down the game to the point where there are few consequences to any decisions. I know that by going Ranger, I'm making a conscious choice to limit myself to a single combat mastery, no useful combat mods from Ranger at the current time, and 4 SP to use on... well, FS boxes I guess. But that's a CHOICE I've made, and one I live with. Why is it so hard for others to accept similar choices? If you choose to be a crafter, you are NOT going to be "viable" and live long on high end adventure planets. There SHOULD be a consequence for choosing a profession or template that limits your combat skills. Giving away the skills of another elite profession to everyone in the game because people don't want to deal with the consequences of their choices is, IMHO, not the best option. But it's one we now have to deal with since our feedback and concerns seems to have been ignored.
AragornSoS wrote:
wickedHangover wrote:
Owen-Lars wrote:
"Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar."
This realy needs to change. I cant believe after all the feedback and discussion on this subject this change went live in its current form. Camo is a unique much loved ranger skill (although it has major issues preventing its regular usage) which in the ranger tree is extremely rare. Now this skill is being handed out to everyone without the slightest bit of compensations of even discussion from the dev side on this subject.
Even just changing the effects to mask scent instread of camo would suffice and leave ranger with their unique skill (camo) that hopefully can have its own issues addressed soon.
As a master ranger on Flurry, I look forward to another source of revenue aside from the boring kill/harvest skill. I completely disagree with what you say and if you think cammo kits are better than mask scent, I have to ask if you really are a ranger LOL
You might have missed the part in red. No Ranger who knows anything about the profession would currently rate camo as "Better" than maskscent, except for POSSIBLY on the few occassions when it happens to work successfully against NPCs. As Owen stated, camo has some major issues. It's largely broken. There has seemed to be a difference of opinion even from what little we've heard from the Devs in the past as to whether it's intended to work against NPCs or not (I think many of us would argue that it should, but...).
I think what has most folks up in arms is that camo has some AMAZING potential. Spend a few minutes looking through the Ranger forum. Read the various proposals (including the Outdoorsman). Consider what camo COULD have been fixed and modified to be, and how it COULD have been a defining skill for the profession and an amazing foundation to build upon in the Ranger Revamp (if that ever actually happens). Now consider that all of that has now been taken away from us, with no discussion, no information on what might be better or replace it, or even any real indication as to what our role is supposed to be in the game. There could very well be some amazing and fun changes planned for Ranger in the future, there could be some things that make us all say "pshaw, who CARES about camo now, we have ghillie suits and radar invisibility while walking! Woot!". However... we don't know that. We actually don't know anything. There is no "In Concept - Ranger Revamp" thread, there is not even an acknowledgement of this being a concern or an issue by anyone from SOE. All we have is the fact that yet another skill that used to cost what, 77 or so SP to even be able to START using it, has now been given away, for free, to the entire community. To that I say thanks but no thanks - I never asked to be a crafter, and never asked to watch the profession I most wanted to play have every single skill invalidated or handed out to everyone else in the game.
JascoSmlee wrote:
Artificial Intelligence
As a player becomes higher in level than an NPC or creature, the aggro radius vs. the AI becomes smaller. A gray con will never aggro. The exception to this is Imperial and Rebel NPC enemies who will still have a full aggro radius.
Well thats great, so why do I spend sooooooo many skill points on Master Ranger so I can camo myself to avoid such aggro?
Crafters
Ranger created camouflage kits are now usable by everyone. Any player may now self-apply a camouflage kit to gain a small conceal buff. This buff is less effective than if a Ranger had applied the camouflage, but it should aid crafters in avoiding the unwanted attention of critters near their installations. Also, camouflage kits are now usable from the button bar
Oh is this why then? Are you kidding me? Why would I make kits to sell, THAT I WONT EVEN NEED MYSELF ANYMORE DUE TO THE GREY CON AGGRO CHANGE?
This patch pretty much completely nerfs yet another line of Ranger. We only have tracking left to go.
To those thay say "well camo was pretty useless anyway". Have you actually played a Master Ranger with capped camo mods? I can go pretty much anywhere without my camo breaking for 1/2 hour if I'm careful. When it works it is a millions times better than mask scent. It did actually help me justify spending all those skill points on Master.
To those that say "its another money making opportunity". Well it would be if i was a CRAFTER. RANGERS ARE NOT CRAFTERS. If you want to buy camo kits off me you can go whistle. I have better things to do than spend my life messing about with factories. There is no incentive at all for me to sell kits. I can make more money by just selling the resources used to make them without the hassle of dealing with factories and crap.
Message Edited by JascoSmlee on 05-26-2005 05:10 PM
Vorpaks wrote:
Salvatoris wrote:
If anyone is now allowed to use camo, previously a Ranger only skill - does this mean that I - a Ranger - can now use other classes' abilities?
Yes, you can now use armor, weapons, food, stims, vehicles, houses and harvesters made by other professions.
I think what he was saying Salvatoris is that camo used to be an ability that you invested skill points to use. Now it is simply a schematic like all those artisan crafted items you mentioned above. The difference is that the items you listed do not automatically give you the ability. If I buy a survey device do I automatically get the ability to survey? No, I have to invest skill points for that. That is why the survey line is useful and in turn makes the artisan profession useful.
Sure, only a Ranger can make the kit, cool. Only medical types can make rez kits. Why not make them universally usable? Not like I can sell camo kits on my vendor - oh wait, can I get vendors free now too?
Yes, you can now get "free" vendors by dedicating some of your skillpoints to novice business skills... Just like the rest of us.
Given your logic I can say if you want to use the camo ability you can dedicate some of your skillpoints to scout or ranger skills... just like the rest of us. Ranger currently do not have the choice to invest skillpoints in artisan. With Master Ranger (needed to make all the kits) and a single combat profession (needed to gather the resources to make the kits) we have 4 skillpoints free. Getting a "free" vendor requires approximately 27 skill points.
Sorry gang, I am not making any kits for sale. Some friends will get them for free. The artisans can whine about being killed whenever they go to check harvestors. Not like they "had" to put harvestors on Lok and Dath and other places where the big baddies would eat their non-combat butts. No help from me. I have to spend how many SP to get the ability that y'all are now getting for free?
I'm sure your competition wont mind you not selling these.... more business for them. And yes, crafters with no combat should probably refrain from putting harvesters on Dath, but we do have named resources from Dath... and this is where you are being selfish and petty... you do understand that pure crafters can have a combat level of zero right? That means even the lowest level mobs outside Mos Eisley can kill them as they try to survey or manage their harvesters. Of course, as long it doesn't affect you, I guess it doesn't matter.
Everyone pretty much agrees that crafters need help. And Rangers have offered just as many suggestions as anyone else. The best one I have heard so far is look at what is causing the problem - the CL system's damage multiplier - and fix that.
Most Rangers would not even mind the camo kit thing if it came with any kind of feedback from the development team on what they are planning to do to make the Ranger's concealment/survival skill unique and a good investment of skillpoints. Instead all they have ever seen on this is silence, and dilution of the uniqueness of what they do have.
I will give you an example. Camps are supposed to repel aggro but they were broken. Recently the development team told the community that camps would never repel aggro because it could be used as an exploit. That's it. No "BUT we are thinking of doing THIS with camps in the future to make them useful!" Nothing.
When speeders, player city shuttles and POIs came into the game it seriously impacterd the Ranger and Scouts roles as the survivalists. Now anyone with a speeder could survive just as well. Rangers were no longer explorers because handy dandy waypoints showed the people with speeders where everything of interest could be found. No one really complained about this too much because - heck speeders and player cities were awesome! It would have been nice if the development team could have provided something for scouts/rangers to make up for their lost functionality. But they didn't.
You are looking at this change as one single thing. Rangers are looking at it as just one more thing in a history of things that make our profession less unique and less worth the skillpoint investment. There is no precedent that the developers will give us anything that we can claim as our own unique ability. They never have before and the community has stopped expecting it.
Butcha wrote:
Salvatoris wrote:
Before i start a point by point... let me say that this is one of the most selfish whiny posts I have read in a long time.... on top of that, most of your arguments are nonsense.
And you can rest assured, your comments come off as whiny too.
JBMat wrote:
If anyone is now allowed to use camo, previously a Ranger only skill - does this mean that I - a Ranger - can now use other classes' abilities?
Yes, you can now use armor because we are certed for it, weapons because we were given a CL for Ranger and only specific weapons if we choose to have a combat profession along with Ranger, food everyone can, stims everone can, vehicles everyone can, houses everyone can and harvesters everyone can made by other professions artisan and architect only.
Sure, only a Ranger can make the kit, cool. Only medical types can make rez kits. Why not make them universally usable? Not like I can sell camo kits on my vendor - oh wait, can I get vendors free now too?
Yes, you can now get "free" vendors by dedicating some of your skillpoints to novice business skills... Just like the rest of us. we need combat professions to complement ranger to harvest resources necessary to make camo kits. After master ranger and a master combat profession we are left with 4 skill points. Now as some of those resources we need require that we hunt on adventure planets, we need to have a high enough CL to survive, which means that it is almost imperative that you have a Master Combat profession. And as the highest level Camo kits are awarded at master ranger, we kinda need that too. So, no, we do not get "free" vendors since we have not the skill points to invest.
Not only is this an infringement on my abilities, I also lose XP. When I camo you, you work off my camo ability (somewhere now above 130). I also got XP if I was near you and you sucessfully hid from a creature. No more.
This was never your only, or even primary source of gaining XP. I have an idea... gather hide for XP, sell nit at a reasonable price... two of your problems solved right there. We have been doing that. Your idea can now be shoved right back in that big mouth of yours.
Sorry gang, I am not making any kits for sale. Some friends will get them for free. The artisans can whine about being killed whenever they go to check harvestors. Not like they "had" to put harvestors on Lok and Dath and other places where the big baddies would eat their non-combat butts. No help from me. I have to spend how many SP to get the ability that y'all are now getting for free?
I'm sure your competition wont mind you not selling these.competition being other Rangers? HA!!! Good luck finding a Ranger selling these. ... more business for them. And yes, crafters with no combat should probably refrain from putting harvesters on Dath, but we do have named resources from Dath... and this is where you are being selfish and petty I think he has every right in the world to be both selfish and petty. Ahh. the joys of freedom... you do understand that pure crafters can have a combat level of zero right? NOoo, ya don't say? That means even the lowest level mobs outside Mos Eisley can kill them as they try to survey or manage their harvesters. Then get a combat profession or find someone to escort you or don't be stupid and try and drop a harv in a field of kreetles. Of course, as long it doesn't affect you, I guess it doesn't matter. You guess correctly.
JB
on second thought, 5 use kits, the lowest uses I make, will be on sale for whatever the max is on the bazaar vendors. And realize, they won't work on the tougher planets, as it is "your" camo ability they are feeding off of, not mine.
again, I'm sure your competition appreciates this. Competition? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH......ahem.....ha!
SalvatoriS
Message Edited by BioEngine on 06-24-2005 03:01 PM
In advance, I would like to ask for the permissions from these people, whom I have quoted as part of the Ranger community.
If Owen has your permission, please post so here.
Thanks guys, thats much apreciated and a great help. I will utilise any resource, information or data i can get my hands on aslong as you are comfortable getting involved.
I realy apreciate anything you guys feel like doing.
Having a consise and detailed log of issues and bugs is always great because it allows us to keep focused, even when our profession seems the bottom of everyone's priority list.